Calling in the expert

[JP11]

I'm fortunate enough to have an uncle with a forestry degree. He's been in the wood business for 40 plus years. He currently buys veneer logs all over the Northeast.

He lives close.. and I've got him coming by today for some marking.

Flagging tape and paint ready. Gonna plan out a few years cutting. At least it gives me a leg to stand on with the wife why I cut this tree, and not that one. She loves em all!

JP

 

[ScotO]

I hate the thought of cutting living trees too (and I do tree removal as a second job!). Don't get me wrong, I enjoy doing tree removal, but there have been jobs where I've talked people OUT of cutting a tree down. Simply put, trees take a VERY long time to mature, and provide life to all living things. If the tree in question is a rare variety or one that simply should be fine with a pruning, then I explain other options to the owner. I only kill a tree as a last resort. Sounds to me like you are doing the right thing. Good on you!

 

[Wood Duck]

If I had a woodlot I'd cut only smaller trees, trees with poor shape or a defect, and trees that are too close to a bigger, better tree. In other words I'd leave the veneer logs and future veneer logs behind and take junk for firewood. I bet your Uncle will immediately know which ones to take out in order to leave behind a nice stand of big trees. I think this is about the exact opposite of the way you'd manage for maximum wood production or maximum profit, but my goal would be a nice stand of large trees, not maximum profit or production.

 

[clemsonfor]

As a forester, i can see both sides of this. Depending upon what your woods look like and how much cutting has been done in the past, will effect the volume that you can remove or any type of tree, dominant, codominant, or suppressed.

Many times these suppressed trees (ones you will target for removal first) will die off in time. May be a 60 yr old tree at that point but was just out competed by the over strory trees. There is no reason to let these trees grow all those years slowing down your "crop trees" or you dominant trees. There is a limit to how much your dirt can grow per acre. It dosent matter if its trees or corn or oaks or sweetgums (true, each species has different growth requirements) you can only have so much biomass per acre, and its better to allow the good or desirable trees to get as much of the energy, from the availible nutrients water and sun that they can.

Those suppressed trees are basically a parisite in the forest, sucking energy away from a tree that could better utilize it in the long run, as those suppressed trees are often out competed and die anyway. Yes the tree will die and rot (if not removed in logging or firewood production) but that may not allow the dominant tree to use any of that energy as at that point in life the dominant may not be at a place in its life where it can use the extra nutirents in its life. Trees do not grow at the same rate forever, there like people. Grow like weeds early then a little bit and a bit more till were adults. Then we continue to grow, get a bit more muscle, but we dont grow any taller, we just grow out. There not really the same cause at this point they dont put on huge diameter growth like most older people, hahaha, but they grow more branches and still gain diameter, till a point they will actually decline, by looseing branches till they can no longer sustain themselves.

Now your disease trees or leaners. These are a no brainer. Some desese should always be cut out for sanitation, others are not spreadable but you dont want them as they weaken a tree. Leaners are a no brainer as there more suseptible to windthrow and ice damage etc.

ANyway wow, i could go on forever, but have hit many of the hilight of silviculture.

If any one has any specific questions you think i could answer over the internet id be glad to help and give it a shot.

 

[JP11]

Wow. Learned a ton, and marked A LOT of wood. I really only went along my driveway on one side, about as far in as I can reach with the logging winch. And along my new road to the orchard,only in about 20 feet on each side.

He was great about showing me what to cut, why, and what was going to be there in the future. I've got A LOT of maple. I think he marked only two oaks to cut, and both were either leaners or compromised at the roots.

I learned some good ID. He showed me some brown ash.. which was what I had scratched my head over when I split it. Says it's rare... although not too valuable. Leaving that alone.

Got plenty of Basswood, Hornbeam, some ash, Tons of soft maple, Some yellow birch, A few beach.

All marked to go.

Some stuff that I said.... I should cut that. He would tell me why not to, and what would happen if I did. Gave me some pointers along the way about which order to cut, where to fall.

There's no substitute for experience. It was great to learn.

Cut just a few, then went to split some. Busted the bolt that holds the head on the splitter. DANG. Wife's gone now.. house to myself. Gonna read a book and nap!

JP

 

[JP11]

Trees do not grow at the same rate forever, there like people. Grow like weeds early then a little bit and a bit more till were adults. Then we continue to grow, get a bit more muscle, but we dont grow any taller, we just grow out. There not really the same cause at this point they dont put on huge diameter growth like most older people, hahaha, but they grow more branches and still gain diameter, till a point they will actually decline, by looseing branches till they can no longer sustain themselves..

This is the part that really interests me. There's an area on the back side of my pond. It's pretty "open" compared to much of the other land that I marked today. My uncle commented.. Yeah, in there, you've got A LOT of good growth right now. I guess that's the sweet spot for species and age.

Much of what I'm cutting over the next year is just sort of "clean up" from my major harvest that was done 7 or 8 years ago when I bought the lot. I found a few downed, but up off the ground trees that were nice and dry!

I had many, many clumps of 4 or 5 soft maple that my uncle would mark to take em all, cause there was something else like an oak or ash nearby. Some he said... bah, they are all firewood.. but that these 3, and leave those two.. get the others in a few years, they are still growing good.

Very interesting. It was way more about what was AROUND a tree, then just the individual tree. There were some where a hemlock and an oak were side by side. Where they were similar height, he has me removing the hemlock now. Others.. the oak would way overtop the hemlock, and he says it isn't hurting it. He would spend as much time looking at what he had marked in the previous row walking by. I guess with an eye for it.. He could see what it would look like AFTER I cut.

Again, very cool to do. I would have just cut willy nilly and shot myself in the foot for sure if I had just done it myself.

JP

 

[bogydave]

Good to call the pros to help when you can.
Lots to learn about lots of things. Keeps us young
Sounds like it was fun & worth while

 

[Backwoods Savage]

It is good to call in the pros and you can learn from them. However, one also has to keep in mind they are trained to make a woodlot profitable for the lumber industry. Your goals might or might not agree. I've found that most will agree...to a point. For example, those soft maples. Not everyone can see the value of soft maple and I would tend to cut some of the multiples but not all. Some I would cut so their would only be one left but some I like having a clump of 3 and 4 because for me there is value there.

Another good reason for having a pro come in and that is for taxable. Timber is normally taxed much different than residental or even ag. Having a plan and able to show that to the township assessors can have much value.

 

[clemsonfor]

Backwoods you are correct. Id say 80% of foresters are to maximize $$/acre and return on investment. BUT there is a huge amout of foresters that that is not the goal. I would argue almost every federal and government forester to some degree does not TRY to maximize profit. USFS lands as well as almost all federal lands are multiple use. There managed for timber production but also recreation, asthetics, wildlife, and hunting.

There are several rotation ages that you can go by, you are taught all in school. They are financial rotation age, asthetic rotation age, and biological rotation age. The finiancial rotation age is honestly the hardest to accomplish, you are making assumptions on growth of a stan into the future as well as assuming stumpage prices for an unkown period in time. This can be monitored through stand life and modified on the fly for changing markets and prices.

Biological age is easy you just bore the tree and can tell when it no longer responds to thinnings and the growth is flatlined. Asthetics, easy as long as it looks good your acomplishing that. I think most here will fall into the first and last category.

I would argue that good financial management of you timber will yield the best firewood producion, but thats just my professional opinion. There is a reason we southern foresters plant say 700/ Trees per acre (TPA) to start with then round year 16-17 cut 20-33% out of them, its to mazimize growth per tree as well as $$/per acre. Cause pulpwood is worth way less per ton your trying to get your trees out of the pulp stage as fast as possible. The only way to do this is to remove biomass from the site, this is done through thinning, hopefully commercial, but by precommercial means if necessary (means you pay to cut the trees). Remember that acre will only grow so much, and you want it to go into FEWER yet more valuable trees instead of way more pulp wood trees that will grow slow and never be worth what sawable logs will be worth. There is also that biological cycle i mentioned, there is a window even on hardwoods that when you miss a certain age they trees will not respond as positively to the thinning action. What i mean is if you leave those clump of oaks there cause they look pretty and nice till the trees are say 80 years old then cut down 2 of them to give the others room to grow then remaining ones will not get as big had you cut the other 2 trees 20 years prior. They just reach a point and thats pretty much how big they will get.

Many folks cant understand this without cuting down trees adn looking at rings. You will have a dominant Oak thats the tallest and biggest crown. Then a smaller one squeezed between it and the next big pretty oak, this is a codominant. It is just as tall smaller in diameter and crown is much smaller. Its probly the same age. Then you will have a tree thats half or 1/3 the diameter of the big tree and growing under the big tree, some think its young and if they cut that big oak it will grow and replace it. Usually this oak was just out competed early and is the same age class ( we will say within 3-10 years of each other)and will never replace that large tree, cause its so late in its growing that it just physically cant make up that ground that it lost by being outcompeted early in life.



My whole point is if you have a forester or want an opinion tell them what your goals are. He SHOULD ask this and not assume though.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Great post Clemson and we agree. And you are very correct to get your goals to the forester before he starts.

One point I should make on the multiple out of one stump. Those trees indeed can be valuable to the land owner. Two examples should show this. First is for the hunter who hunts from trees. Those multiples are excellent! Then there are the ones in someone's yard. Kids love playing on and around them. Should they be cut?

 

[clemsonfor]

If i am managing hardwoods, which i almost never do. I would cut them all but either the best one or 2 depending. Coppice sprouts (what your refferring to) will usually kill all of the weaker ones off in years. But you do have a point!

 

[JP11]

Great post Clemson and we agree. And you are very correct to get your goals to the forester before he starts.

One point I should make on the multiple out of one stump. Those trees indeed can be valuable to the land owner. Two examples should show this. First is for the hunter who hunts from trees. Those multiples are excellent! Then there are the ones in someone's yard. Kids love playing on and around them. Should they be cut?

LOL.. you guys are cracking me up. Only because we did it according to MY specific needs. My uncle knows my wife well. She is a nature lover, and a huge animal lover. If it were up to her.. we wouldn't ever cut a single one. Every little hole in a tree has a family of 10 squirrels with a sick baby and they all will be homeless... you get the point.

So... when marking. All marks are facing AWAY from the driveway. So I can go in the woods and see all I want to cut this winter.. but SHE can't see the dots.

As he was marking... "yeah, take this, leave that for cover... she'll never see this one is gone"

And.. as we got closer to the house "yeah, that one's gonna die in a couple years.. but don't have that fight today. Leave that one next to the lawn alone"

I'd say he new exactly what the goal was.

As for deer... they ALL get a pass on our land. They are all over too. Saw two fawns when driving in after going to the store tonight. I go way, way away to camp to hunt. Happy wife, happy life!

JP

 

[peakbagger]

If you are interesting in small woodlot management and the woods in general, Northern Woodland Magazine is Northern New England specific and has a good mix of articles on woodlot management, local widllife and some history to boot. The one page near the front of every issue that lays out what is going on it the woods by month and week is worth the issue. I have learned a lot from it over the years.

By the way, foresters are ina tough industry and they have to do what the owner wants in order to get a paycheck. They try to educate owners that are willing to be educated but many owners just want a check. Considering that firewood goes for $2 to 4 per million board feet and veneer logs can go for $3000 with sawlogs in the $300 to $600 range it sure is worth not cutting the veneer and sawlogs for firewood.

 

[JP11]

Peak-

The prices I got from him when I did the major cutting were incredible. His company only buys bigger than 16" on the small end. They pay a serious premium for them. They use them as "slicer" logs and not rotisserie. I had a good amount of oaks that came out nice and clear, and were 55 to 60 years old.

In looking around. He told me I've got another 10 years till I cut em again. But boy! I paid for HALF of what the acreage cost me, and I obviously didn't strip it. AND... I didn't lift a finger last time around... and won't again. Guy with a harvester, and all the gear did it. It's a pretty neat science.. and with just about 70 acres.. obviously I'm not gonna NEED to beat the heck out of it to cut my 10 cord or so a year.

JP

 

[Backwoods Savage]

JP, this sounds like it is top notch all the way.

We have 2 neighbors cutting off parts of their woods now. We've had offers to come in but we do not need it yet. Our woods is still quite young.

 

[Lewiston]

Our local forester does an excellent job of helping us stay on track with our management goals - wildlife habitat and overall health of the forest.

 

[clemsonfor]

If you are interesting in small woodlot management and the woods in general, Northern Woodland Magazine is Northern New England specific and has a good mix of articles on woodlot management, local widllife and some history to boot. The one page near the front of every issue that lays out what is going on it the woods by month and week is worth the issue. I have learned a lot from it over the years.

By the way, foresters are ina tough industry and they have to do what the owner wants in order to get a paycheck. They try to educate owners that are willing to be educated but many owners just want a check. Considering that firewood goes for $2 to 4 per million board feet and veneer logs can go for $3000 with sawlogs in the $300 to $600 range it sure is worth not cutting the veneer and sawlogs for firewood.

There are several ways to bill. If i am a forester like JPs uncle, i get paid by getting a commission on the logs he brings in. Its like a car dealer. Logs of a given quality will always be worth X, just like a brand new pickup as long as its current model year no miles and sitting on the lot will always be worth X (i know the longer its there the more they discount, just go with that analogy its what came up first in my mind). How much the buyer/forester gives you and leaves for himself will be his commission. JP im not saying you were lowballed by your unlcle or anything so dont worry im not hounding you just educating. So if the guy really likes your logs, or his mill really needs wood or his logger that works for him needs a tract to cut, you see your price or stumpage go up. If he is just fishing and has plenty of wood and the mill is not needing it really that price offered to you will go down and his commission will go up. (there is the moving target to of the mill price it will also fluctuate but were holding things constant here).

OK a private landowner, like Backwoods wants a forester to help him put togeather a commercial timber harvest. It can happen any combination of ways, but the guy can offer an all inclusive package deal and take a 10% commission on the stumpage price given. This will include a timber cruise, marking of the timber or boundary lines, contract negotion, solicitation, and collection of the money for you as well as giving you your payment for the timber minus his 10% cut. He SHOULD provide you with all settlements and scale tickets presented by the woodbuyer or logger (if a unit price sale). OR he can work for you on a per/hour basis on what ever your aggreed upon price, this work may include a timber cruise, map production, and or timber marking as well as boundary marking. Then Backwoods can sell the timber himself if he wants to (i dont advise this but some folks insist as they think they can save money or get just as good a price). Many foresters will work piecemeal if you insist on it.

I personally dont advise selling the timber ones self unless you have done it before and have trusted contacts, but not just the guy uncle "Jon" sold his to for years, often times this "old friends" price can be beat by a better logger that can do the job even better. I work with folks that i know depending upon who it is or wheather there a landowner without much acerage etc, they get a different price than someone like me can get. I know the market condidtions in the area i work in and know when a price is low or high. Prices also change daily and per tract.

Anyway glad you learned a lot JP. And i know what you mean about the wife!