CANT DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER

[dspoon19]

I am having trouble deciding what will be the best bang for the buck as far as an outdoor wood boiler vs a wood gasification stove. I give some specs below.

Live in NE Ohio
Use on average around 5.5 gallons of LP per day for forced air heating
have a 2200 sq ft house built in 2007, full basement
Have access to virtually as much free wood as I can take
don't leave the house for long periods of time during heating season


I had a few "VS's" questions.

1.) OWB vs Gasser maintenance
2.) upfront costs differences
3.) long term cost differences
4.) efficiencies differences
5.) ancillary equipment cost differences
6.) ease of operation
7.) ease of installation
8.) longevity (how long do they last with typical maintenance) of OWB vs wood gassifier
9.) any recommendations on either for a good brand?
10.) any other special considerations that newbie would like/need to know about heating your house with an ourdoor wood burning appliance


thanks,
Derek in ohio

 

[Clarkbug]

Derek,

Welcome to Hearth!

I would do some reading here to get a feel for things, since your question has been asked before.

But I guess Ill start answering your question by asking some of my own... how close are your neighbors? You say you have access to as much free wood as you can take...how much time do you have to gather it?

I cant address all of your questions, but I can speak in generalities about some things you asked. A "regular" OWB can handle wet wood, at the expense of burning a lot more of it and smoking a bunch, potentially ticking off your neighbors. An outdoor gasser needs dry wood, so you need to have a shed to keep the wood in or something to keep the rain/snow off of. Gasser will be more expensive up front, but will use a lot less wood long term. Spend the money to put your buried lines in right, as heat loss there will plague you for the rest of your days. Same with the pipe size, dont skimp if you are on the edge between two sizes for the run that you have.

I think ease of install will be the same between the two choices, and operation should be similar.

Folks near me that have a regular OWB (now banned in NY for a new install) are those that have lots of time to gather wood in the winter for free (farmers who clear hedgerows, fallen trees in woodlots, etc.) or those that buy a log truck load and cut it up to toss it in. I dont know anyone with an outdoor gasser, mostly because of the dry wood requirement.

Others can speak to the other aspects of your question better than me.

 

[maple1]

Does it have to be an OWB?

 

[flyingcow]

1.) OWB vs Gasser maintenance In Maine, OWB's have to be EPA compliant. My neighbor has an E-Classic OWB. He cleans his tubes about the same as I do. About every 2 weeks. Takes 15 minutes to do a good cleaning
2.) upfront costs differences E-Classic was about $12k.. My gasser plus storage tank was about the same with controls. Figures given to me by E-Classic salesman. 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 100 gals of oil. An indoor gasser 1 cord of seasoned wood replaces 150/175 gals of oil. This figure is spot on.
3.) long term cost differences ??
4.) efficiencies differences look at #2
5.) ancillary equipment cost differences ??
6.) ease of operation My gasser experience and observation of OWB's owners, about the same between us.
7.) ease of installation More time for an indoor gasser, but savings in effiency, for me, outweighs that.
8.) longevity (how long do they last with typical maintenance) of OWB vs wood gassifier I expect 20 yrs, not sure of a OWB.
9.) any recommendations on either for a good brand? Take your time and look around. You've found a great site to help you with that. Good people here.
10.) any other special considerations that newbie would like/need to know about heating your house with an ourdoor wood burning appliance No matter what you get for a burner, you should have seasoned wood. The obvious, location of stack. Should have a building to protect wood from the elements.

I put an indoor gasser in an unattached building. piped underground to house. I like this set up. I also stack my wood on palllets and move with a tractor. Note my avatar. Also, a gasser makes minimal smoke. Once you start a fire, you can't tell it's burning. Kinda neat, but it's extremely efficient. I understand you have ample wood supply, but IMO, why burn more.

Welcome, others will chime in.

 

[flyingcow]

Also, others have built a "man cave" to put an indoor gasser in. I've yet put a TV in mine, but maybe someday.

 

[cityboy172]

I have an owb, and am now wishing I would of known what a gasifacation boiler was 7 years ago when I bought my central boiler. I am going through about 1 cord a week as of lately. Looking forward to revamping my system this spring.

 

[flyingcow]

I have an owb, and am now wishing I would of known what a gasifacation boiler was 7 years ago when I bought my central boiler. I am going through about 1 cord a week as of lately. Looking forward to revamping my system this spring.

One thing i noticed about OWB's. they'll burn all that you put in. A buddy of mine has a 6048? He learned not to fill it full at night, Learned about how much to put in to get him thru the night. Helped some on wood consumption. Which is about the same idea as me with my gasser, but it's alot less wood that i waste.

 

[cityboy172]

One thing i noticed about OWB's. they'll burn all that you put in. A buddy of mine has a 6048? He learned not to fill it full at night, Learned about how much to put in to get him thru the night. Helped some on wood consumption. Which is about the same idea as me with my gasser, but it's alot less wood that i waste.

I have the same boiler as your buddy. I have noticed that a little bit, but that seems to apply more so in the warmer weather (+20 on up, low or no wind). In this stuff we've had this year, It's more of a "feed me more oak".

 

[dspoon19]

Derek,

Welcome to Hearth!

I would do some reading here to get a feel for things, since your question has been asked before.

But I guess Ill start answering your question by asking some of my own... how close are your neighbors? You say you have access to as much free wood as you can take...how much time do you have to gather it?

I cant address all of your questions, but I can speak in generalities about some things you asked. A "regular" OWB can handle wet wood, at the expense of burning a lot more of it and smoking a bunch, potentially ticking off your neighbors. An outdoor gasser needs dry wood, so you need to have a shed to keep the wood in or something to keep the rain/snow off of. Gasser will be more expensive up front, but will use a lot less wood long term. Spend the money to put your buried lines in right, as heat loss there will plague you for the rest of your days. Same with the pipe size, dont skimp if you are on the edge between two sizes for the run that you have.

I think ease of install will be the same between the two choices, and operation should be similar.

Folks near me that have a regular OWB (now banned in NY for a new install) are those that have lots of time to gather wood in the winter for free (farmers who clear hedgerows, fallen trees in woodlots, etc.) or those that buy a log truck load and cut it up to toss it in. I dont know anyone with an outdoor gasser, mostly because of the dry wood requirement.

Others can speak to the other aspects of your question better than me.

The neighbors are fairly far away. I sit on 4 acres in the middle of farm country. I've got plenty of time to gather wood. if I run out of time there is a eco-bloc guy 20 mins from my house that sells it fairly cheap compared to cord wood.

 

[dspoon19]

Does it have to be an OWB?

It has to be outside and it has to burn wood. I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors. I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.

 

[dspoon19]

1.) OWB vs Gasser maintenance In Maine, OWB's have to be EPA compliant. My neighbor has an E-Classic OWB. He cleans his tubes about the same as I do. About every 2 weeks. Takes 15 minutes to do a good cleaning
2.) upfront costs differences E-Classic was about $12k.. My gasser plus storage tank was about the same with controls. Figures given to me by E-Classic salesman. 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 100 gals of oil. An indoor gasser 1 cord of seasoned wood replaces 150/175 gals of oil. This figure is spot on.
3.) long term cost differences ??
4.) efficiencies differences look at #2
5.) ancillary equipment cost differences ??
6.) ease of operation My gasser experience and observation of OWB's owners, about the same between us.
7.) ease of installation More time for an indoor gasser, but savings in effiency, for me, outweighs that.
8.) longevity (how long do they last with typical maintenance) of OWB vs wood gassifier I expect 20 yrs, not sure of a OWB.
9.) any recommendations on either for a good brand? Take your time and look around. You've found a great site to help you with that. Good people here.
10.) any other special considerations that newbie would like/need to know about heating your house with an ourdoor wood burning appliance No matter what you get for a burner, you should have seasoned wood. The obvious, location of stack. Should have a building to protect wood from the elements.

I put an indoor gasser in an unattached building. piped underground to house. I like this set up. I also stack my wood on palllets and move with a tractor. Note my avatar. Also, a gasser makes minimal smoke. Once you start a fire, you can't tell it's burning. Kinda neat, but it's extremely efficient. I understand you have ample wood supply, but IMO, why burn more.

Welcome, others will chime in.

Do you have to get a storage tank when you do a gasification system? Do you have to put a gasser in a building or can it be a true outdoor free standing unit? I don't want to burn more and if I cheap out and get a regular burner I am sure I will kick myself in the butt for not getting the gasser in 15 years when the "fun" of cutting wood and hauling wood wears off!

 

[cityboy172]

It has to be outside and it has to burn wood. I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors. I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.

My next Boiler will be an Indoor model, outdoors. Mine is going in a pole barn, or an addition to my pole barn anyways.

 

[hobbyheater]

Do you have to get a storage tank when you do a gasification system? Do you have to put a gasser in a building or can it be a true outdoor free standing unit? I don't want to burn more and if I cheap out and get a regular burner I am sure I will kick myself in the butt for not getting the gasser in 15 years when the "fun" of cutting wood and hauling wood wears off!

Our first boiler (non-gasier) was like the one pictured. It burned 22 cords per year. This is what most outdoor boilers look like before the little metal house is built around them.


Our second boiler (no picture) (non gasier) was a triple pass cast iron down drafter which burned 16 cords per year. When 1,046 imperial gallons of storage was added, consumption dropped to 10 cords per year.


30+ years ago when our Jetstream was connected to the same storage, consumption dropped to 4 1/2 cords per year.

From my experience, storage has really allowed our gasifiction boiler to work at very high rate of efficiency.

Most outdoor boilers gasification or not are unpressurized and adding storage is going to be awkward.


(broken link removed to http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/88-eko-gasification-boiler.aspx)

I feel your money would be much better spent if you were to build a simple out building that could contain one of the above indoor boilers and plus two 500 gallon propane tanks for heat storage.
You will find not many with outdoor boilers of either type will post on this forum. But believe what others have said here. Take your time and read the many posts and make an informed decision not a panicked off the cuff type purchase.

Welcome to "Hearth"

 

[flyingcow]

Do you have to get a storage tank when you do a gasification system? No. But my specific model you have to. Do you have to put a gasser in a building or can it be a true outdoor free standing unit? Yes, it needs to be in a insulated building I don't want to burn more and if I cheap out and get a regular burner I am sure I will kick myself in the butt for not getting the gasser in 15 years when the "fun" of cutting wood and hauling wood wears off!

I agree.

Storage with a gasser does save some wood, but it's more about convince for me. Most of the time I start a fire once a day. Takes 10 minutes at best, which includes me splitting the kindlin' up first. I also heat my DHW n the summer months too. You can always add storage in later. My boiler is in outbuilding, and my tank is in my basement about 100ft from boiler.

 

[BillsWS]

Derek, I have been working through the same question. If I were to go OWB it would be the Portage & Main BL2840 http://www.portageandmainboilers.com/#!pm-ultimizer-series/c5zz I think it is brilliant in its design, check it out. If outside I could use the wood here on my property (12 acres). I could be less fussy about the species and quality of the wood. I have a Blaze King catalytic so I know the importance of DRY wood, but if something comes up in a year and I am not able to cut, split, stack and fully dry I wouldn't be in too big of a pinch. The folks I have communicated with about their P & M BL series love them and are using a lot less wood than their previous OWB http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/ The mess would be outside, I think install would be WAY less complicated with the OWB (I have had two CB's in the past) and I don't need to add another chimney to my house. On the other hand, the idea of the MOST EFFICIENT use of the wood BTU's appeals to me. I have a fully insulated (ICF) 9 ft. high basement with outside access (man door size). If it is really cold out and something happened to a pump or some other component, I could go down in the basement to work it out (outside? Wow, changing a pump when it is 10 below zero out?). The plumbing, tanks, valves, controllers, etc... seem WAY more complicated to me. Going down the basement steps and feeling the warmth thrown off having the gasification boiler and tanks down there is appealring. The cost of the inside boiler and hook ups is quite a lot higher in my research. I am also a person who likes everything neat and tidy, and I believe that with an inside set up my wood would be smaller, less of it, and I would build a porch roof just outside my basement man door and have my year + worth of wood just outside the door. Neat, tidy, organized and out of sight.

 

[maple1]

It has to be outside and it has to burn wood. I don't wanna get into pellet furnaces or anything indoors. I burnt wood indoors when I lived with my parents for 20 years and I know what a PITA indoor burning can be.

My boiler is in my basement - I wouldn't have it any other way & consider it to be nothing resembling a PITA.

But to each their own - and on that note, if I HAD to have a wood burner outside my house, I would put an indoor gassification boiler, in an insulated shed, big enough to hold it and my winters wood (maybe with some extra room for workshop or mancave space), and put storage tanks in my basement.

 

[dspoon19]

Has anyone ever calculated out the costs of the two systems and compared them? I mean with the OWB you have the unit, the underground piping, a pump, and the heat exchanger. Those are the basic necessities. The gasification system requires the unit, a place to put the unit, possibly storage tanks to get the most benefit out of it, wood storage, pumps.

Assuming the gasser costs 2x more than the OWB and I save at max 50% on free wood and that the OWB set up costs 6K and the average life is going to be 15 years, it would "cost" 400 dollars per year for the OWB set up and 800 dollars per year for the gasification set up. I will use approximately 5 cords of wood in a OWB for the heating season, so at best I will burn 2.5 cords of wood with the gasser unit. 2.5 cords takes me about 8 hours to cut and haul and costs $0.

So in my simple mind I am saving 2.5 cords/8 hours of work but paying an extra 400 dollars per year. This is why I question which one I should go with. The gasser is more efficient yes but is it worth the money?

Is my thinking correct or am I overlooking something?

 

[hobbyheater]

Use on average around 5.5 gallons of LP per day for forced air heating

There is a big discrepancy between your propane used and your projected wood use to obtain the same results!

. I will use approximately 5 cords of wood in a OWB for the heating season, so at best I will burn 2.5 cords of wood with the gasser unit. 2.5 cords takes me about 8 hours to cut and haul and costs $0.
Is my thinking correct or am I overlooking something?

I think you have missed something!

 

[sloeffle]

Assuming the gasser costs 2x more than the OWB and I save at max 50% on free wood and that the OWB set up costs 6K and the average life is going to be 15 years, it would "cost" 400 dollars per year for the OWB set up and 800 dollars per year for the gasification set up. I will use approximately 5 cords of wood in a OWB for the heating season, so at best I will burn 2.5 cords of wood with the gasser unit. 2.5 cords takes me about 8 hours to cut and haul and costs $0.

Please don't take this the wrong way.

So what you are saying is that your chainsaws, wood haluer ( truck, ATV, tractor ) do not run on gas or some other form of fuel that you have to buy ? You also need to account for buying chainsaws and wear and tear on your equipment.

I have a buddy that will sells me 1.5 cord unsplit loads for 125$. I have 30 acres of dead ash trees that I can easily cut and split and I can't even justify my time / fuel / wear and tear on equipment when I can buy it that cheap. I even thought about going the pellet route but I dropped 3k on a PSG Caddy a few years ago that requires cord wood.

 

[dspoon19]

There is a big discrepancy between your propane used and your projected wood use to obtain the same results!



I think you have missed something!

From the BLM website (same numbers are on other sites) take number of gallons of LP used and divide by 220 to get cords of wood used. I think they are assuming a good hardwood with low moisture content. I am burning 1.5 year elm and shagbark hickory mixed in with some sugar maple and iron wood.

so....5.5/220= .025 cords per day x 30 days in a month=.75 cords per month x 6 month heating season = 4.5 cords. I just rounded up to 5 for small insurance.

is this a fair way of determining wood usage?

 

[maple1]

From what I've seen & heard (I don't own one) - if you burn less than 8 cords of wood per year in an OWB, you are in a very small minority.

Isn't LP in the $4-5/gallon range now? So 5.5 gallons/day would be maybe $20? 6 month heating season would be $3500-4000? That amount of $ would buy a lot of wood - and a very nice boiler system in short order. Something seems off - but I don't buy propane except by the 20-pounder for the BBQ.

EDIT: Also, the way you calcd also doesn't take into account lost efficiencies due to the general nature of an OWB. Those will kill your calcs very badly right off.

 

[dspoon19]

Please don't take this the wrong way.

So what you are saying is that your chainsaws, wood haluer ( truck, ATV, tractor ) do not run on gas or some other form of fuel that you have to buy ? You also need to account for buying chainsaws and wear and tear on your equipment.

I have a buddy that will sells me 1.5 cord unsplit loads for 125$. I have 30 acres of dead ash trees that I can easily cut and split and I can't even justify my time / fuel / wear and tear on equipment when I can buy it that cheap. I even thought about going the pellet route but I dropped 3k on a PSG Caddy a few years ago that requires cord wood.

I don't think I use 400 dollars a year in fuel, 2 stroke mix, chains, bar oil.

 

[dspoon19]

From what I've seen & heard (I don't own one) - if you burn less than 8 cords of wood per year in an OWB, you are in a very small minority.

Isn't LP in the $4-5/gallon range now? So 5.5 gallons/day would be maybe $20? 6 month heating season would be $3500-4000? That amount of $ would buy a lot of wood - and a very nice boiler system in short order. Something seems off - but I don't buy propane except by the 20-pounder for the BBQ.

EDIT: Also, the way you calcd also doesn't take into account lost efficiencies due to the general nature of an OWB. Those will kill your calcs very badly right off.

I'm locked in at $1.94/gallon thru till the spring. True on the loss of efficiencies! so if the OWB was 75% efficient I would still burn slightly under 8 cords per year. I am not sure on the actual efficiencies of an OWB though.

 

[maple1]

Think more like 40-50%.

Maybe.

Definitely not 75%.

 

[Treefarmer]

I'm locked in at $1.94/gallon thru till the spring. True on the loss of efficiencies! so if the OWB was 75% efficient I would still burn slightly under 8 cords per year. I am not sure on the actual efficiencies of an OWB though.

Possibly 40% efficient WITH storage. Figure on 25-30% otherwise.