Cat vs Non-cat

[elkimmeg]

My cat combustor stove burning 101

Lets first address the variables, which I believe to be 3 or 4

No two loads of wood are the same either in size shape or moisture content
Meaning no two load ups are ever the same, in wood species or size there is no consistent spaced loads of splits or the spacing in which to align in the fire box therefore the volume varies. Some loads are all oak others have birch, maple, mixed in even some Ash and hickory Again no two pieces are equal in dryness. This is true for most all wood stove burners we all have to adjust the stove to reflect the variables. Most of my wood is cut split stacked for 2 seasons ahead. The final variable is the temperature the colder it gets the stronger the draft and the more heat needed

The Cat Encore is a breeze to start. The primary air control supplies enough air I to easily start from newspapers to kindling. One does not have to crack any doors to get it going just fully open air one the kindling is fully involved; I add smaller splits and then larger splits. At some point 10 minutes I cut the primary air down to ½ I watch the griddle top thermometer rise As it approaches 500 degree’s I may open the top and look for evidence of the wood charring I also look at the established coal bed and how involved the current load is. If it has progressed I then fill the rest of the firebox.
I do not touch the primary air but let it get established including the new wood. Once it climbs past 500 I cut the air again to quarter open. So far I have done nothing different than with any other stove. Yes I could engage the cat now, but I wait. My stove is thematically controlled. Once I engage the damper, it tries to hold the temperature at the time of engagement Now on a night when it will not drop below 20 I may engage at griddle top 550 If I want to heat the area up quicker I wait to 650 or if it is real cold then 650. Many times that’s it till 8hours later for the next reload other times I still have some adjustments I can make. After the quicker warm-up I can cut the air all the way closed and let the thematically secondary air adjust. Possibly this will drop down to 500 zone that maintains the current temps in the house If after 15 minutes the stove temp drops to 500 and I want 600 I move the primary air open 1/8 more I mean that’s it. So easy a Neanderthal can master it..

Reloading after the initial load: In order to have smokeless top loading, one has to open the damper, which disengages the cat. One also should crack it first then proceed to open it slowly. If you forget and the wife is around be ready to hear about it If you open it fast you can draw some smoke out again you can get a pissed off wife. I usually open the air to ½ load it up wait 10 minutes cut the air to ¼ engage the damper again within 10 more minutes I can adjust the air either way and forget it for the next 8hours. At the morning fill up I use a fireplace poker and stir the bed of coals knocking out ash to the pan below and even the bed exposing more coals if there is a good glowing bed I load it up and wait 10 minutes. If the bed is not that healthy I may only load 3 smaller splits open the air all the way up and let it get going. Once going I then will load more or completely load it

This is a learning curb needed for all stoves. Knowing how to operate it.. It make no difference cat, or models, the same steps are involved



So easy a Neanderthal can master it

 

[Sandor]

Like Sandor asks, would a 200 degree stove temp take the chill out of the house in the spring and the fall? 1/2 hour with my hot air fossel fuel burnin furnace does that real well. But I want to do that real well with wood. And I think thats a place we all dance around a bit cause it ain't easy, and I question whether cat or non cat clean technology even engages in those little fire situations. The cat non-cat debate can rage on and on at cold temps and I think they both can do a great job of cranking out lots of great, efficient heat. Its those finge situations that I wish I knew better answers for and that I ponder as the last cold gasp of winter gets ready to head out of the NE.

Exactly jp.

Like BrotherBart said above, keeping an even temp is tough. With my past Regency's, it was not really possible.

After a year of research, I decided I wanted soapstone to "even out the heat". Then I thought, "what happens if I get the soapstone too hot, and it takes a long while to cool down?"

Then, after reading about efficient (relatively low temp) burns made possible by the cat, I thought Bingo!

The combination of soapstone and a cat I thought perfect.

I never burn the Woodstock with a 200F stovetop temp. 250 is about as low as I go. At that stovetop temp, there is no smoke out of the chimney. And the heat coming off the unit is gentle. If its cold out, run it at 450. If you need to heat up in a hurry, run it 700, then back off.

Your right, the fringe situations was my Holy Grail of woodburning. I found my answer.

 

[Todd]

"I admit defeat" that's right ..... you read here it folks. Cat stove are cleaner burning and lower light off temps then non cat stove .

Now , go out side and look at your monster wood pile .........3 cords ? 6 cords ? take one log out of the wood pile and throw it away ............ now you have a non cat stove difference.

For me it was more like 1/2 to 3/4 cord less than my non cat....thank you very much.

 

[Gunner]

Sandor, I didn't think you could take soapstone much past 500* is 700 possible.

 

[Sandor]

"I admit defeat" that's right ..... you read here it folks. Cat stove are cleaner burning and lower light off temps then non cat stove .

Now , go out side and look at your monster wood pile .........3 cords ? 6 cords ? take one log out of the wood pile and throw it away ............ now you have a non cat stove difference.

For me it was more like 1/2 to 3/4 cord less than my non cat....thank you very much.

Funny Todd. I was going to suggest he throw away 2 cords off of that 6 cord pile, not one split.

 

[Gunner]

"I admit defeat" that's right ..... you read here it folks. Cat stove are cleaner burning and lower light off temps then non cat stove .

Now , go out side and look at your monster wood pile .........3 cords ? 6 cords ? take one log out of the wood pile and throw it away ............ now you have a non cat stove difference.

For me it was more like 1/2 to 3/4 cord less than my non cat....thank you very much.

Funny Todd. I was going to suggest he throw away 2 cords off of that 6 cord pile, not one split.

Come on guys we were doing so well....

I'm going to have to call bullchit on that tho, I read that on the chimneysweep too todd and don't believe it.

Now it's two cords come on guys!!
Are you sure there wasn't a window open somewhere.

 

[elkimmeg]

Roo you asked for it sold done deal. Imagine I have this stove in my shed for a month and a half. Its kiling me, but soon to be installed at the donor's home

 

[Sandor]

Sandor, I didn't think you could take soapstone much past 500* is 700 possible.

Woodstock says a max of 725 for my stove. I have run mine at 700 for maybe an hour when I came home to a cold house. This was by accident, when I first got the stove. The more I turned the air control down, the hotter it was getting.... the cat was glowing! I know it wasn't residual heat in the soapstone, because the heat coming through the front glass was almost scary. (I checked the cat several days later, and it was fine) This was part of getting used to the stove, the air control actually works.

Running mine at 400 provides all the heat I need on a cold day.

 

[TMonter]

The difference between a non-cat and a catalytic stove when operated based on thermal efficiency is less than 5%.

So with 6 Cords of wood and a cord seasoned weighing 3000lb/cord figure 18,000 lbs.

5% then translates into 900lbs assuming you always run your stove at peak efficiency which doesn't happen.

 

[Roospike]

"I admit defeat" that's right ..... you read here it folks. Cat stove are cleaner burning and lower light off temps then non cat stove .

Now , go out side and look at your monster wood pile .........3 cords ? 6 cords ? take one log out of the wood pile and throw it away ............ now you have a non cat stove difference.

For me it was more like 1/2 to 3/4 cord less than my non cat....thank you very much.

Funny Todd. I was going to suggest he throw away 2 cords off of that 6 cord pile, not one split.

From the # of emishions per what the stoves state thats 1 log , So if you guys are going through 3/4 cord to 2 cord difference then i'm going to have to call "USER ERROR"
I heat my WHOLE 1800 sf house all fall , winter and spring with this 1 wood stove , NO small heater , no furnace , just 1 wood stove. we get winters with temps of 15 below and i do it all with 4 cords of wood and the house runs about 76° and never falls below 70° in the house.

Now if you think a cat stove can make such a difference that i can heat this whole house all winter long with only 1 stove on just 2 cords of wood i would have to say prove it.

I'm with Gunner .. I'm going to have to call B.S. on the wood use difference and i am planted on the USER ERROR issue of the difference you claim it makes when the #'s say its only 1 log difference.

I'm going to get the meter out on ya''ll s story.

 

[Roospike]

BTW , witch on the the soapstone users had to have there cat replaced because of cracks from thermal shock and USER ERROR only after 1 season ?

I remember the story buy cant remember who that was .

 

[Sandor]

"I admit defeat" that's right ..... you read here it folks. Cat stove are cleaner burning and lower light off temps then non cat stove .

Now , go out side and look at your monster wood pile .........3 cords ? 6 cords ? take one log out of the wood pile and throw it away ............ now you have a non cat stove difference.

For me it was more like 1/2 to 3/4 cord less than my non cat....thank you very much.

Funny Todd. I was going to suggest he throw away 2 cords off of that 6 cord pile, not one split.

Come on guys we were doing so well....

I'm going to have to call bullchit on that tho, I read that on the chimneysweep too todd and don't believe it.

Now it's two cords come on guys!!
Are you sure there wasn't a window open somewhere.

Sorry Gunner. Throw off 1.5 cords.

Seriously.... I have conversed with nearly everyone on this board that owns a Woodstock and everyone is astounded how much less wood we consume. I would say 1/4 to 1/3 less wood per burning season. Ask anyone else that replaced their previous stove with a Woodstock and see what they have to say.

 

[wg_bent]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..... :snake: Not the cat vs non-cat thread again

 

[Roospike]

Noooooooooo..... :snake: Not the cat vs non-cat thread again

Yep , It must of been time again. :smirk: At least everybody is civilised in this one.

 

[elkimmeg]

Warren this time I did not start it there is some good imformation given. My major point it to dispell the generalities that had festered for years.
these modern cat stoves are not the 80's retrofits, but well designed secondary cat combustion stoves.. IF enough people repeat a rumor, people start beliving it
What's worst ones that never had experience using one ,spread the rumor in ignorance and other believe it. I believed it once, but I have the experience to diss prove it

Again handled without egos involved this post has been educational. We even have Blaze king owners conversing with PE summit owners

 

[TMonter]

Sorry Gunner. Throw off 1.5 cords.

Seriously.... I have conversed with nearly everyone on this board that owns a Woodstock and everyone is astounded how much less wood we consume. I would say 1/4 to 1/3 less wood per burning season. Ask anyone else that replaced their previous stove with a Woodstock and see what they have to say.

That has a lot to do with what stove was replaced. A newer cat stove is going to do a lot better than a much older non-cat stove. Note that people who go to a cat stove and do their research usually become more in tune to how the stove is running. It could be simply that the users become more in tune on how to run the stove right.

 

[begreen]

If it weren't for clearances issues, I'd prolly be burning a cat stove. Had an Encore offered to me and would have loved to try it out.

 

[Gunner]

#Copied#

Heating Efficiency testing is performed using full loads of seasoned cordwood, and is designed to measure how much of the heat value contained in the wood is extracted and delivered into the living space. When testing for heating efficiency, the following criteria are examined:
Extraction Efficiency: the load is weighed going in, and the particulate emissions and ashes are weighed after the fire to determine how effectively a given firebox design breaks down the fuel to extract the available heat.
Heat Transfer Efficiency: this testing is performed in calorimeter rooms equipped with temperature sensors. Similar temperature sensors are installed in the exhaust flue. The degree changes in the room and flue are monitored for the duration of the test fires to determine how much of the heat extracted by the fire is delivered into the room, as compared to the heat lost up the flue.


Todds Fireview has an efficency rating per Woodstock as 72%
his old Homestead was 74%

how is he using less wood????????????

Todd did you double your insulation prior to the woodstock ;-)

 

[Todd]

"I admit defeat" that's right ..... you read here it folks. Cat stove are cleaner burning and lower light off temps then non cat stove .

Now , go out side and look at your monster wood pile .........3 cords ? 6 cords ? take one log out of the wood pile and throw it away ............ now you have a non cat stove difference.

For me it was more like 1/2 to 3/4 cord less than my non cat....thank you very much.

Funny Todd. I was going to suggest he throw away 2 cords off of that 6 cord pile, not one split.

From the # of emishions per what the stoves state thats 1 log , So if you guys are going through 3/4 cord to 2 cord difference then i'm going to have to call "USER ERROR"
I heat my WHOLE 1800 sf house all fall , winter and spring with this 1 wood stove , NO small heater , no furnace , just 1 wood stove. we get winters with temps of 15 below and i do it all with 4 cords of wood and the house runs about 76° and never falls below 70° in the house.

Now if you think a cat stove can make such a difference that i can heat this whole house all winter long with only 1 stove on just 2 cords of wood i would have to say prove it.

I'm with Gunner .. I'm going to have to call B.S. on the wood use difference and i am planted on the USER ERROR issue of the difference you claim it makes when the #'s say its only 1 log difference.

I'm going to get the meter out on ya''ll s story.

Well, I live a little further north than you and go through just 3 cords and heat 24/7 for my 1800 sq ft home. My Homestead non cat went through about 4. You can believe me or not, I don't care. Now I only have to store 6 cord instead of 8 since I like to keep a year ahead.

And yes it was me that had to replace my cat after only one year. I admit user error. I was trying to tweek every ounce of efficiency out of this thing and screwed up. But Woodstock replaced it for free.

 

[ansehnlich1]

I ran that defiant cat last winter 24/7 and burned up 3 maybe 4 cord, oak, maple, and cherry, in a 2500 sq. ft. cape cod in north maryland. I had a cheapo thermometer on the corner of the griddle and engaged that cat when that thermometer hit 500. I had no way of telling what the temp was inside the firebox there. Anyway, the stove performed well, I'd run outside lookin' for smoke at the top of the *exterior masonry chimney and never did see any. I'd load it at 0530 and come home at 1600 hrs. and throw some smaller stuff in there, wait a bit, load some more, and I'd be back in business.

 

[TMonter]

And yes it was me that had to replace my cat after only one year. I admit user error. I was trying to tweek every ounce of efficiency out of this thing and screwed up. But Woodstock replaced it for free.

Did you try to extract every ounce of efficiency out of your previous stove?

Change wood type?

Change flue size?

 

[Todd]

#Copied#

Heating Efficiency testing is performed using full loads of seasoned cordwood, and is designed to measure how much of the heat value contained in the wood is extracted and delivered into the living space. When testing for heating efficiency, the following criteria are examined:
Extraction Efficiency: the load is weighed going in, and the particulate emissions and ashes are weighed after the fire to determine how effectively a given firebox design breaks down the fuel to extract the available heat.
Heat Transfer Efficiency: this testing is performed in calorimeter rooms equipped with temperature sensors. Similar temperature sensors are installed in the exhaust flue. The degree changes in the room and flue are monitored for the duration of the test fires to determine how much of the heat extracted by the fire is delivered into the room, as compared to the heat lost up the flue.


Todds Fireview has an efficency rating per Woodstock as 72%
his old Homestead was 74%

how is he using less wood????????????

Todd did you double your insulation prior to the woodstock ;-)

The Fireview's rating you posted is the EPA's default of 72%. Woodstock said their independent cordwood is 77%-80%
The Homestead EPA default is 63%. Cordwood is 74%

 

[TMonter]

The Fireview’s rating you posted is the EPA’s default of 72%. Woodstock said their independent cordwood is 77%-80%
The Homestead EPA default is 63%. Cordwood is 74%

Which wouldn't translate into 1/4 less wood. Something else is amiss.

My neighbor's blaze king princess cat stove goes through almost the same amount of wood as my Quad non-cat every winter. (About 4 cord from September to May).

Our homes have similar layouts and he used the same 6" liner I used on his stove.

 

[Todd]

And yes it was me that had to replace my cat after only one year. I admit user error. I was trying to tweek every ounce of efficiency out of this thing and screwed up. But Woodstock replaced it for free.

Did you try to extract every ounce of efficiency out of your previous stove? Yes.

Change wood type? No

Change flue size?

No

I was engaging the cat too soon causing thermo shock.....I think? As soon as my probe thermometer said 500 I would engage thinking it was good to go. So I'm thinking some of my wood wasn't quite dry enough and sent steam up through the hotter cat. Or a lesser possibility was a defective cat? Now I wait 10-20 minutes before engagment.

 

[Roospike]

The Woodstock Fireview Soapstone Wood Stove

DIMENSIONS & SPECIFICATIONS

Dimensions (HxWxD)….….…..…...............................….28” x 26” x 20”
Weight: 475 lbs Firebox: 14.5 x 13 x 20”
Flue Exit: Rear Flue Height (center): 23.25”
Flue Size: 6” Area Heated: 900-1,600 sq. ft.
Wood Length: 16” Burn Time: 10-12 hrs.
Wood Loading:.................................................................................Side
Draft Control:...............................................................................Manual
Max Heat Output: ….….….….….…...............................55,000 BTUs /hr.
Catalytic Combustor:…….……………….....................................Standard
EPA Certified: YES.................................................EPA Efficiency: 72%
EPA Emission Rating:…….….….….…................................….1.3 gms/hr
Back Clearance:..…….….….….….….….……................................….30”
Side Clearance:..................................................................................18”
Back Clearance w/Heat Shield:….….……..............................……......18”
Mobile Home Approved

*********************************************************************

I cant find the 78%-80% efficiency ? Not to say that it isn't listed , i just cant find it. Were not dog piling on you Todd , I think this whole thread turned into a microscope debate. ;-)