Catalytic converters and any Bio Brick or Envi Block type product

[Veracity]

Hello to all,

I am new to this forum and to wood burning stoves/inserts in general.

A Lopi (fireplacextrordinair) Large Fush Wood Hybrid Fyre insert is being installed in my fireplace next week.
This unit has a catalytic converter.

My cord wood has been delivered and stacked.

However, I would like to experiment with Envi Blocks, which are advertised as being 100% wood. No glue, no binders, no gum.

If I ask Lopi if they are safe to burn in my unit, in order to cover themselves with the warranty, they will certainly say "no".

If I ask the Envi Blocks people if they are safe to use in my unit, in order to make the sale, they will certainly say "yes".

I'm interested in hearing from other catalytic converter owners.

Thoughts?

Thank you.

 

[NinjaTech]

Got 2000 lbs of them out back right now, they work just fine in a blaze king with a cat.

 

[Veracity]

Got 2000 lbs of them out back right now, they work just fine in a blaze king with a cat.

Thanks.

This is the type of real world advice I need.

 

[Grisu]

The products you mentioned are fine in a cat stove. Just make sure they only contain compressed sawdust etc. without any additives. Keep an eye on the stove temperature as those Envi-blocks are really dry and can lead to an overfire quickly. Packing them tight helps with keeping enough control over the burn.

Are you getting an insulated liner and a block-off plate with your install?

 

[Veracity]

The products you mentioned are fine in a cat stove. Just make sure they only contain compressed sawdust etc. without any additives. Keep an eye on the stove temperature as those Envi-blocks are really dry and can lead to an overfire quickly. Packing them tight helps with keeping enough control over the burn.

Are you getting an insulated liner and a block-off plate with your install?

Insulated liner? Yes.
Block off plate? Not sure!

It's being professionally installed. I will make sure to ask when they're here on the 27th.

 

[Grisu]

You will probably need to ask that before they come as most installers just stuff some insulation in the damper area instead of putting a sheet metal plate with some Roxul insulation on top in. I had mine made myself and just had them install it after they dropped the liner.

 

[BKVP]

All,

The state of Alaska recently conducted a thorough examination and testing of processed fuels. They were supplied from the manufacturer in Fairbanks Alaska.

In the study, which should be posted through ADEC, (Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation) they found when mixed with cord wood with varying moisture content, the logs produced cleaner emissions than when burned alone.

I was asked about these finding by folks at ADEC as to why this might have occurred. Our in house studies show the very dry nature (less than 7%) of most processed fuels actually leads to a very rich environment and most stoves are not designed to burn at that air/fuel ratio. In our studies, burning solely NIELS and one other supplied fuel, we were able to produce delayed ignitions within the firebox. Super dry cord wood can have the same result. Typically, we were able to recreate this effect by burning the stoves on the highest burn rates. (This closes the bimetallic spring down and restricts air to avoid over firing.) Then video taped the effect, which was mostly a rolling flame that disappears, hot gases pool in front of the combustor and ignite all at once. It can be intimidating to say the least.

Anyone burning processed fuels or extremely dry cord wood would be advised to make gradual changes to the air settings.

When we introduced cord wood to the fire (18-28% MC) the effect disappeared immediately and could not be reproduced.

The folks at NIELS have sent logs off to OMNI test in the past to have testing done. They are able to adjust the MC in the fuels by watching the fuel stock used in the manufacturing process....These are exciting times!

 

[Highbeam]

I test burned a couple hundred pounds of the niel product in my cat stove with and without dry cordwood. The good news is that the biologs extend the burn times but the bad news is that they are Smokey. They do not burn clean. I concluded the test by just burning them up to waste them, couldn't wait to get back to clean, cheap, dependable firewood.

 

[begreen]

They burn cleanly in the right circumstances. For example I never saw any smoke with them in the Castine. I'm wondering if it is possible to exceed the capacity of the cat with too many NIELs in the stove?

 

[Poindexter]

They burn cleanly in the right circumstances. For example I never saw any smoke with them in the Castine. I'm wondering if it is possible to exceed the capacity of the cat with too many NIELs in the stove?

Yes I think it is possible. My local bio-logs are pressed but not extruded. Once lit they puff open, exposing a great deal of surface area in a very short time, that all burns at once.

Having a couple or three in a load of otherwise slightly to damp wood provides plenty of dry clean burning fuel to finish driving the excess water off the damp cord wood and keep the burn dry enough to run without having an overfire.

But with enough bio-logs lighting off all at once it is at least theorectically possible to overwhelm the cat, collect a bunch of flammable gasses in front of the cat and possibly even blow the glass out or door open.

My understanding is the extruded type are formed under much higher pressures than my pressed ones, don't puff up when lit and therefore don't expose a huge amount of surface area all at once.

I have no real way to know if your specific local brand of bio-log is pressed or extruded. Does it puff up - expand- when lit, or does it stay the same size and basically burn like a piece of cordwood getting smaller and smaller as the burn progresses?

 

[Treacherous]

Very clean burn in my Lopi. Other than the heat vapor you can't tell I am burning. Sorry to hear cat burns are not optimal.

 

[NinjaTech]

I have never had an issue burning full loads of the gren heat or envi brand bricks, right now I am using them as filter for slightly damp oak (22-25 percent). I bought a pallet right before getting a two huge free loads of oak so they are being used as buffer right now. No emissions other than water vapor with the cat engaged.

 

[prezes13]

I burn the tem in my non catalytic cape cod. This year I have a ton in my garage and last year I burnt a ton also. If it's going to make you feel better my dealer is burning them in lopi stoves and others on a showroom floor.

 

[BKVP]

My experience with NIELS is ZERO visible emissions in my King model when 4-6 are loaded on hot coals with active cat.

The neighbors always like teasing me that I work for BK and don't even burn my stove!!

 

[Highbeam]

Maybe my firewood isn't wet enough. It seems that wet firewood is prescribed?

In the end, to waste them, I was using two logs on the bottom and a full load of wood on top. Nice long burn, glass relatively clean with nice high cat temps and predictable stove temps. I actually watch my chimney and had a at least 16 hours of steady, embarrassing , blue smoke. Flue temps above 400 the whole time.

Obviously, some folks have better luck. I would recommend burning semi seasoned firewood before biologs.

If you only learn one thing from my testing it is that you too should buy 200# and try them with your stove. My main goal was to find a smoke free fuel so I focused on emissions.

 

[begreen]

No firewood should be involved in the test. I'll have to get a batch of HomeFires and do an emissions test in the T6. They burned very cleanly in Castine and put out some great heat. But that firebox was half the size of the T6, so maybe not so good with the bigger stove? Homefires sell at the local hardware store so I can use them as a test. They are pretty similar in density to the NIELs.

 

[Veracity]

Some of the lingo and acronyms are going over my head, but if I understand correctly, some catalytic converter owners ARE using Envi Blocks or similar products without any ill effects.

This is welcome information.

Thank you.

 

[begreen]

NIELs = Northern Idaho Energy Logs

 

[kennyp2339]

All,

The state of Alaska recently conducted a thorough examination and testing of processed fuels. They were supplied from the manufacturer in Fairbanks Alaska.

In the study, which should be posted through ADEC, (Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation) they found when mixed with cord wood with varying moisture content, the logs produced cleaner emissions than when burned alone.

I was asked about these finding by folks at ADEC as to why this might have occurred. Our in house studies show the very dry nature (less than 7%) of most processed fuels actually leads to a very rich environment and most stoves are not designed to burn at that air/fuel ratio. In our studies, burning solely NIELS and one other supplied fuel, we were able to produce delayed ignitions within the firebox. Super dry cord wood can have the same result. Typically, we were able to recreate this effect by burning the stoves on the highest burn rates. (This closes the bimetallic spring down and restricts air to avoid over firing.) Then video taped the effect, which was mostly a rolling flame that disappears, hot gases pool in front of the combustor and ignite all at once. It can be intimidating to say the least.

Anyone burning processed fuels or extremely dry cord wood would be advised to make gradual changes to the air settings.

Hmmm, you just answered a question I was about to ask, I installed a brand new princess in my basement and have been burning very dry cherry and ash <10% for the past 2 weeks, I have noticed a little more smoke coming out my stack, more than the old stove, I started to think that my cat was defective (although it glows red through most of the burn) I then just chalked it up to being it is was it is, but as you just stated very dry fuel off gases a lot faster and is very rich. I'm hoping that in a couple weeks I'll be though the very dry stuff and I'll start burning stacked oak that's in the 15% range. Hopefully there will be a reduction of smoke.

When we introduced cord wood to the fire (18-28% MC) the effect disappeared immediately and could not be reproduced.

The folks at NIELS have sent logs off to OMNI test in the past to have testing done. They are able to adjust the MC in the fuels by watching the fuel stock used in the manufacturing process....These are exciting times!

 

[Highbeam]

Some of the lingo and acronyms are going over my head, but if I understand correctly, some catalytic converter owners ARE using Envi Blocks or similar products without any ill effects.

This is welcome information.

Thank you.

I do not believe that any harm was done to the cat or the noncat stoves burning the niel product. They burned great, good heat and very controllable. Just smoke from the cap when the cat stove tried to slow them down. If smoke doesn't bother you the biologs are a great alternative.

 

[begreen]

Was there any smoke showing from burning the logs in the 30NC?

 

[Highbeam]

Was there any smoke showing from burning the logs in the 30NC?

Not after full ignition. The flood of oxygen in a noncat seemed to resolve the rich burn condition present in a cat application.

 

[Highbeam]

I really wanted these things to burn clean. Really. I had a cheap supply and an incentive to burn stealth on occasion.

I am willing to believe that some cat stoves like them better but please, buy a couple hundred pounds and try them out before you commit to a to a ton.

 

[mellow]

Guessing a Hybrid would not have the same issues.

 

[Highbeam]

Guessing a Hybrid would not have the same issues.

The hybrid would most likely do a better job of cleanly combusting the rapid release of fuel from these things. The trouble of course is that this means lots of heat will be generated whether you like it or not. AKA going nuclear.