Catalytic vs. Non-catalytic Dutchwest Stoves

[Small Ember]

Great site. I particularly enjoyed the Dutchwest non-catalytic videos posted by tradergordo.

I have decided to invest in a wood burning stove. I thought I had settled on the Dutchwest 2477 small cast iron non-catalytic. When I contacted a local hearth store I was told that they only carry catalytic. Now I’m also looking into the Dutchwest 2460 small cast iron.

Everything I know about wood stoves I’ve learned from this site and googling around the Internet. What are the positives and negatives of each type of stove?

Since both the cat and non-cat are the same price, my main concerns are safety, efficiency, emissions, maintenance and long-term ownership costs. Will one last longer than the other without a major reinvestment?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

 

[Slow1]

I can't speak directly to the Dutchwest models, but I think you are doing well to ask about Cat vs Non-Cat prior to buying. I feel that the information I got from sales folks prior to buying was somewhat incomplete to say the least.

Since that time (and now that I already have been burning my non-cat stove) I have learned a lot more about the differences (on this forum of course).

Basic summary as I understand it for most stoves in terms of functionality is as follows - Cat versions are "slightly" more complex to operate (folks will argue both sides of this point until they have blisters on their fingers of course), generally can give a longer burn time (at lower heat output perhaps), and can be more completely shut down. Non-Cat stoves generally only have one lever to deal with (thus the slightly easier to operate - my stove being an exception to this), require slightly less regular maintenance (you don't have to clean out the Cat periodically), and you won't have to replace the Cat (cost $100-150ish every 3-5 years?).

Now I'm only talking here about current EPA stoves and mind you I only have personal experience with one and it is non-cat. Safety wise, I believe any current stove if properly installed and operated correctly is safe - and conversely if you install it wrong or screw up bad enough having a cat or not won't make it any safer.

Efficiency numbers seem to be slightly higher in my research than non-cats, but then you have to consider that those are lab numbers and you are not heating up a lab using lab fuel and protocols. In other words, HOW you operate your stove will likely make more of a difference there than which of the two stove you buy. With that said, your optimum efficiency will be limited by your technology once you master operation of your stove - so question is, how hard are you going to work at getting that good at running optimally?

Emissions - Probably very much like efficiency I would imagine. My stove has one of the best lab values (.7g/hr) but I wonder if my average for the season since I installed is anywhere near tha number. I'm simply not that good at running my stove (yet?). Thus getting a stove that is easier to run with a higher lab value might actually work better than having a more difficult stove with a better lab value. Cat vs Non-Cat will obviously affect emissions, but how you run the stove will make all the difference in the world AND what you feed the stove probably makes just as much - all these EPA stoves want near ideal 20% moisture wood to get best burns - both for emissions and for efficiency. How does your wood stack up?

maintenance/long term ownership costs. hmm. I wonder about this one, On the surface it would seem that the Cat would lose to the non-cat here (that's why I chose the non-cat for my stove since they were the same initial price and sales folks really didn't explain the difference well at all). however, if you generally get better burns (cleaner) and more efficient operations as a whole from a cat stove, you may arguably save in the long TCO from reduced costs associated with fuel and/or chimney cleaning. However, if properly operated the same model non-cat probably won't have a material difference in flue fouling. Fuel consumption between the two stoves depends a lot on how you need your heat - if you mostly need long low burns then the cat is likely more for you, if you expect short fires are all you ever need then perhaps the non-cat is great.

With all this said, my current bias is towards a good cat stove. However, having read on this forum quite a bit there does seem to be quite a range of different cat stoves out there - some are easier and more efficient than others so I don't think that anyone can clearly say that in all cases cat is better (or worse) than non-cat.

I am sure my comments will provide fodder for folks - I rather look forward to reading it. There clearly are strong supporters and critics of both technologies. I just hope that any facts that I have stated are actually correct - if not, someone will quickly point out the errors in my ways.

 

[Highbeam]

SLow1 pretty much nailed it. I have little to add except for to say... ditto.

I have checked out the VC cat stove since it is one of the few large cat stoves on the market and the perfomance specs are quite decent. Not many folks own them though to give real world experience. Several folks own the non-cat versions and the reports are awful, I would not let my mother buy a VC non-cat stove.

Be sure to check the rated heating area for these stoves as a small stove is seldom a good decision. The largest model cat stoves are rated to heat only pretty small areas and you can always underfire an oversized stove, you can't overfire it.

Oh, I own a non-cat soapstone stove and it has performed very well and exactly as it was designed. I am interested in a cat stove for the improvements in burn time and range of heat output from high to low. To burn a non-cat stove is to burn it hot and then delay the restokings based on room temperature, there really is no temperature control on them due to the EPA low burn limits.

 

[karri0n]

+1 to highbeam's Opinion. I've heard lots and lots of bad reviews of the Non cat VC stoves, including their refractory completely breaking down as well as the rear end of the things going thermonuclear, as well as people having loads of trouble trying to make any warranty claims on the things. I've only seen a couple reports of the cat version, but those that I have seen are generally happy with it. You can find a LOT of info on this site, but here's a thread to get you started.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/33809/

 

[hookspacken]

I own a Dutchwest 2460 small Cat stove and have absolutley no issued with the stove at all. I have been heating my home (about 1,000 sq. ft) solely with this stove for the past 3 years and it has performed like a champ.

 

[mellow]

If your looking at Cat stoves also don't forget to check out Blaze King's line of stoves. Cat stoves have gotten a bad rap but if run correctly can throw out some serious long term heat. It is for sure not a lazy mans stove, if you have a very busy life and just need to chunk wood in a stove and go then the non-cat version would be for you.

 

[Rowski]

What kinda of bad rap did the cat stoves get or have? I'm curious because I'm looking in possibly getting a cat stove.

Derek

 

[Small Ember]

Wow! Thanks for the great info Slow1. I will read the link provided by KarriOn as well.

I see myself as a slow burn kind of person. My gas furnace stays on 66 F all winter. Sounds like the cat is the way to go, and the small stove should be more than enough to keep me comfortable.

Here in the Mid-South there are not a lot of choices regarding wood stoves. There is all of one hearth store and they are Vermont Castings only.

What are your thoughts on double vs. single wall flue pipes? My ceiling is 18' high and the hearth store guy said I would only need single wall, while an installer I had out to the house recommended double wall. I like the idea of the added heat from a single wall pipe, but it would look like a pencil rising 15' to the ceiling.

 

[Slow1]

re: Single vs Double wall

My experience with our stove is that we get a lot of our useful heat from the stovepipe. I'm not entirely convinced that this is the way it should be - by this I mean I often think that my configuration has excessive draft and as such a lot of the heat goes up the pipe. So - if I had double wall from the back of the stove on out I would not get as much heat in the house.

Now - generally speaking you do want as much heat from your wood as possible. As I understand things, running as much single wall in the house as you can will get more, but there is a cost - the more heat you take from the pipe, the cooler your smoke is getting as it leaves the house and thus (surprise!) the more likely it is to get cool enough to condense and create creasote. So the calculation of this would go along the lines of the following: (Temperature of smoke leaving stove) - (amount of heat pulled from single wall run) - (heat lost from rest of chimney run) = temp at exit of chimney. The higher the input temp (i.e. temp leaving your stove) the more you could safely remove en-route, likewise the shorter and better insulated the 'rest of your chimney run' is, the more you likely can pull inside. Lots of variables to play with. With a modern stove properly run you generally have cleaner exhaust _during_ the burn cycle, and if you master good fire starting techniques (top down) and use the best tinder/kindling then you can minimize smoke on startup too so you should be able to minimize buildup during that time. I believe cat stoves generally have relatively cooler stack temps than non-cats - I'm not certain on this point.

So... the question that I would want answered for installation in your house is if you go with the single wall all the way up, will you run the risk of cooling the stack too much for whichever stove you have chosen? If you do, this will impact both draft and creasote buildup risk.

As to the "look like a pencil" - I think it is just a question of what color and how shiny that pencil will be. I actually find the pipe to be rather attractive, but then again I also like chrome shelving with wheels as my wood racks in the house. Our stove location didn't allow for a very tall pipe so we just have about 4' of vertical run above the stove before it turns 90* and heads out the wall (black single wall until the bend, then into double wall that is shiny chrome on outside to take it through the wall and up the outside of the house).

 

[Highbeam]

Single wall pipe is much cheaper than double wall pipe and will look more appropriate leaving the smaller woodstove that you have chosen. The pencil will be long but over a 15' length both single and double wall will be pretty pencil like. I would have single wall pipe if I could meet the clearance specs just for looks and ease of hooking up to the stove. The double wall makes for a more efficient flue with better draft since it maintains heat. With 15' of interior fluepipe you won't have a problem with draft.

 

[wellbuilt home]

Ive burned a EX large dw cat stove for 15 years and loved it . They are great . I would not wast my time with a non cat stove .

 

[bluefrier]

Just out of curiosity, why is a non-cat stove a waste of time?

 

[Highbeam]

Ive burned a EX large dw cat stove for 15 years and loved it . They are great . I would not wast my time with a non cat stove .

Also, don't you now own and run a non-cat stove?

I would not waste my time on a VC non-cat stove but the non-cat stoves make up the vast majority of all current stoves for a reason.... they are cheaper, simpler to run, better flame picture, etc. which is totally different than saying that a cat stove is more complicated.

 

[hookspacken]

I dont understand why people say that cat stoves are more difficult to run. I get the temp on the side door up to about 550, engagage the catalyst, give it about 5 -10 minutes and cut the air. Wait about 5-7 hours (depending on how much wood I loaded it with), repeat..... The catalyst will run anywhere form 1000 to 1250 during the peak burn, probably for an huour or more, then drop off to about 700-800 and stay ther for therest of the burn cycle.

 

[mellow]

People do not want to waste time on getting the stove up to temp then closing down the damper to engage the cat, plain and simple. People want to throw wood in the box turn the air down or up and be done with it.

 

[hookspacken]

I have never run a non cat stove personally, but dont you still have to get it up to a certain temperature before the secondaries light off?

 

[Rowski]

There are single lever and dual lever non-cat stoves. Usually the single lever have secondary tubes. The dual lever has a down draft type.

My Defiant with a very thick bead of coal parted down the middle and dry wood will "rumble" the secondary instantly the the damper is closed. But its throwing A LOT of heat!

My problem now is getting gentle heat out during warmer outside temps.

 

[Todd]

People do not want to waste time on getting the stove up to temp then closing down the damper to engage the cat, plain and simple. People want to throw wood in the box turn the air down or up and be done with it.

So you don't waste any time during reload before closing down your damper for a longer burn? Reloading a non cat and immediately turning the air down will create a dirty burn, blacked your glass, and waste fuel. You non-cat guys burn the same way a cat stove does, there is just one more lever to engage the cat. Simple.

 

[Highbeam]

I have never run a non cat stove personally, but dont you still have to get it up to a certain temperature before the secondaries light off?

No. Well you don't have to and that's the beauty, there are no requirements. It is conceivable that you could just leave the air control at a low level and just keep feeding wood as needed. We enthusiasts obsess with the perfect and most efficient burn.

On a cat stove you don't really have a choice, if you follow the little clock/meter procedure and throw all the willy wonka levers at the right times then it will burn great and if you don't then you risk cat damage and backpuffing, etc.

On a non-cat you can burn very cleanly if you want to with minimal effort or if you are willing to tolerate a period of smokey chimney you can just leave the draft "closed" or nearly closed and stuff dry wood in and it will eventually turn into a clean burn. There's no rigid procedure and no requirement to light off secondaries. I've restoked in the middle of the night and simply threw wood in and went to bed, draft closed, and in the morning the glass was as clean as ever. With wet wood you might not be able to do this without getting a dirty window but nobody should be burning wet wood.

Don't be so sensitive to the relative difficulties of the cat/non-cat operation. Both systems are well within the grasp of the typical wood burning enthusiast.

 

[Todd]

I have never run a non cat stove personally, but dont you still have to get it up to a certain temperature before the secondaries light off?

No. Well you don't have to and that's the beauty, there are no requirements. It is conceivable that you could just leave the air control at a low level and just keep feeding wood as needed. We enthusiasts obsess with the perfect and most efficient burn.

On a cat stove you don't really have a choice, if you follow the little clock/meter procedure and throw all the willy wonka levers at the right times then it will burn great and if you don't then you risk cat damage and backpuffing, etc.

On a non-cat you can burn very cleanly if you want to with minimal effort or if you are willing to tolerate a period of smokey chimney you can just leave the draft "closed" or nearly closed and stuff dry wood in and it will eventually turn into a clean burn. There's no rigid procedure and no requirement to light off secondaries. I've restoked in the middle of the night and simply threw wood in and went to bed, draft closed, and in the morning the glass was as clean as ever. With wet wood you might not be able to do this without getting a dirty window but nobody should be burning wet wood.

Don't be so sensitive to the relative difficulties of the cat/non-cat operation. Both systems are well within the grasp of the typical wood burning enthusiast.

Are you kidding me? This is exactly how the old stoves got the nickname smoke dragons. I don't care how dry your wood is, you still need to char it and get your chimney back up to a good drafting temp or you will smoke out the neighborhood and clog up your chimney. Maybe you got lucky or loaded while the stove was still hot enough, but if your down to coals and just throw wood on while the damper is on low chances are it won't burn worth a damn.

Now say you reload half way through the burn cycle in a hot stove and chimney, there is less need to refire before turning down and the same goes for a cat stove as long as you have dry wood.

 

[mellow]

I think your taking our comments to serious Todd. I am speaking about your everyday person that just wants to throw wood in the stove and be done. We know how it SHOULD be done, but not everyone does.

Take for example my cousin, he got sick of dealing with the Cat in his stove and took it out and has been burning this season with no cat and is happy, why you ask? Because he got sick of having to wait to damper down the stove, he wanted to throw wood in and be done with it, but some people you can talk to till you blue in the face about creosote buildup and they will still give you that dazed look.

Hence he tells everyone how bad cat stoves are and blah blah blah, once again giving them a black eye.

 

[Highbeam]

I have never run a non cat stove personally, but dont you still have to get it up to a certain temperature before the secondaries light off?

No. Well you don't have to and that's the beauty, there are no requirements. It is conceivable that you could just leave the air control at a low level and just keep feeding wood as needed. We enthusiasts obsess with the perfect and most efficient burn.

On a cat stove you don't really have a choice, if you follow the little clock/meter procedure and throw all the willy wonka levers at the right times then it will burn great and if you don't then you risk cat damage and backpuffing, etc.

On a non-cat you can burn very cleanly if you want to with minimal effort or if you are willing to tolerate a period of smokey chimney you can just leave the draft "closed" or nearly closed and stuff dry wood in and it will eventually turn into a clean burn. There's no rigid procedure and no requirement to light off secondaries. I've restoked in the middle of the night and simply threw wood in and went to bed, draft closed, and in the morning the glass was as clean as ever. With wet wood you might not be able to do this without getting a dirty window but nobody should be burning wet wood.

Don't be so sensitive to the relative difficulties of the cat/non-cat operation. Both systems are well within the grasp of the typical wood burning enthusiast.

Are you kidding me? This is exactly how the old stoves got the nickname smoke dragons. I don't care how dry your wood is, you still need to char it and get your chimney back up to a good drafting temp or you will smoke out the neighborhood and clog up your chimney. Maybe you got lucky or loaded while the stove was still hot enough, but if your down to coals and just throw wood on while the damper is on low chances are it won't burn worth a damn.

Now say you reload half way through the burn cycle in a hot stove and chimney, there is less need to refire before turning down and the same goes for a cat stove as long as you have dry wood.

"I don't care how dry your wood is, you still need to char it and get your chimney back up to a good drafting temp or you will smoke out the neighborhood and clog up your chimney."

Have you ever tried it? I think you might be surprised how quickly the fire recovers and burns cleanly after skipping the optional char stage. I have never been able to kill a fire yet by just loading the stove on coals. Sometimes I have to load the stove and leave, and as I drive out the chimney is smoking but when I return it is clear and the glass is clean. Eventually, the wood load will heat up and combust. Remember, we can't shut the stoves down with the air control. Only reduce it to the EPA allowed minimum. Yes, less smoke when you load a hot stove. Maybe soapstone helps with this.

The point is that there is no rigid procedure to follow with the non-cats and there is one with cats.

Todd, I personally only load and go on very rare occasions. I am an enthusiast. Care to guess what the average stove burner does?

I consider the wife factor. She's not a dumbo but if I tried to tell her about cat light off temperature and when to throw a lever based on some measurement then it could get ugly. With our non-cat I now tell her to keep a flame until there are coals and she has no trouble.

 

[mellow]

I consider the wife factor. She's not a dumbo but if I tried to tell her about cat light off temperature and when to throw a lever based on some measurement then it could get ugly. With our non-cat I now tell her to keep a flame until there are coals and she has no trouble.

Bingo on that statement, I am still trying to get the wife educated about using a cat stove. She just loads the wood and closes the damper without lighting off the cat, we do have a 10 month old son so it is hard for her sometimes to babysit the stove so I can understand. The stove still works, just not as efficient as I would like.

 

[Todd]

Yes, I have tried it with my previous stoves and most of the time I ended up with black glass, unless I had a serious coal bed or half a load remaining. But I see where you are coming from when you talk about the wife factor and others that just don't give a hoot.

 

[hookspacken]

I dont know about other wives and other cat stoves, but my wife runs the stove while I am at work all day, she has no problem with the catalyst. This is all while tending to our 3 year old boy. Like I said, it is simple. I just cant see all the hoop-la regarding the operation of a Cat stove, there is no difficulties involved. Just dont want someone getting the wrong impression and shy away form a cat stove, thinking there is a lot more to operating one than there really is, that's all.