changing pump speeds;pump control

[barnartist]

I'd like to learn more about how to change pump speeds and at certain water temps.

I have a pump with a manual speed switch (Laddomat) and was wondering if and how it can be automatically adjusted.

This Laddomat feeds my storage tanks, and I am curious if it can cause unwanted cooling, being the boiler is operating at an outdoor temperature, a lean-to of my garage.

I know zero about this kind of control. Thanks!

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

nofossil wired relays to a three-speed pump, and has his computer controlling it.

Alternately, a variable-speed setpoint controller can be used (eg, Tekmar 356) to vary the pump speed.

Joe

 

[DenaliChuck]

A Tekmar 157 would control a variable speed pump if I understand correctly, and I hope I do since that is what I've ordered for my system! I don't know about the Laddomat...

 

[DaveBP]

Denali, I'm thinking about the same thing. On page 4 of this pdf from Tekmar is a list of circulators that the 157 control is approved for.

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/literature/acrobat/d157.pdf

I don't know which circulator is used in the US version of the Laddomat. Thermovar's (sold by Tarm here) comparable unit uses a Grundfos 1558 that is on the list. Bunch of others are, too. Anyone out there doing this? Does it make a measurable difference anywhere is the system? Does it help top off a storage tank to reduce the flow rate as the temps get higher and closer and the fire in the boiler is slowing down? Theoretically it seems it should but is the real result worth the money?

Barnartist, look at the circulator on your Laddomat. It probably is a standard model and there may be a number of controls that could step it to different flows. Joe probably knows off the top of his head.

 

[pybyr]

Denali, I'm thinking about the same thing. On page 4 of this pdf from Tekmar is a list of circulators that the 157 control is approved for.

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/literature/acrobat/d157.pdf

I don't know which circulator is used in the US version of the Laddomat. Thermovar's (sold by Tarm here) comparable unit uses a Grundfos 1558 that is on the list. Bunch of others are, too. Anyone out there doing this? Does it make a measurable difference anywhere is the system? Does it help top off a storage tank to reduce the flow rate as the temps get higher and closer and the fire in the boiler is slowing down? Theoretically it seems it should but is the real result worth the money?

Barnartist, look at the circulator on your Laddomat. It probably is a standard model and there may be a number of controls that could step it to different flows. Joe probably knows off the top of his head.

I don't have a Laddomat, but I looked at their literature pretty seriously before I happily realized that I do not need one, or any other sort of gradual tempering valve given my Econoburn's built in system to control a bypass pump and a main pump to keep the boiler from loping at low temperatures

and... from looking at the Laddomat literature a lot, and then eventually deciding to go with and purchasing Wilo Star 3 speed circulators for all the circulators in my project, I get a very, very strong intuitive sense that the Laddomat photos I have seen showed a Wilo pump housing/motor head in the Laddomat housing. Google Wilo North America and speak with their tech folks and I'll bet that they can help. Assuming that the Laddomat has a one speed pump, but that you might be able to change it to the "3 speed motor head" as is used in the Wilos that I am using, maybe you can follow NoFo's lead and use some relays to switch the flow rate.? the quality of design and construction on the Wilos I bought (from Patriot Supply) and a Taco 007 is, well, night and day... like the difference between a German car and a 1977 Ford Granada. I've looked at Grundfos 15-58s, too, and am pleased at how much better designed and built the Wilos seem. While I usually like to buy domestic when I can, any number of Taco products I have actually bought in the midst of this project have been made overseas (mostly China) whereas the Wilo pumps were all made in France. Please note, I have nothing against any ethnic group or nation... I just like to buy local, but/and am particularly disapppointed to see "local" stuff be merely re-badged things from even further away than the things that are open about being imports....

 

[Nofossil]

If you can afford it, a variable speed circulator and controller is the way to go. Besides the Tekmar solution, I think Taco makes a circulator with integrated controller. I lusted after them, but they are pretty long $$ form my blood.

A search here for 'poor man's variable speed circulator' should turn up my solution - I used a $60 Grundfos off of eBay along with a couple of $2 relays. I already had a controller to drive the relays, though - that may rule it out for you unless you're really happy playing with complicated relay logic.

 

[barnartist]

I agree I like to buy the same way.

The Laddomat though does have 3 speed settings on it. Using a screwdriver it can be manually switched. I use the fastest setting all the time, but I really am not sure the flow rate, but I have been told arount 11 gal min.

Again, I am not sure I need to change speeds, but I am thinking that after the fire has peaked, it might be nice to slow it down so that it does not cool my storage tanks.

I think the built in valves close off pretty well, but I dont have allot of gauges to help me see what totally happens all the time.

 

[sdrobertson]

If you can afford it, a variable speed circulator and controller is the way to go. Besides the Tekmar solution, I think Taco makes a circulator with integrated controller. I lusted after them, but they are pretty long $$ form my blood.

I called Patriot-Supply on the Taco models and they told me about 450.00 and a 6 to 8 week wait. They recommended a BellGossett circulator with integrated controller. I just installed this and I'm extremely pleased with the results of this unit. I have the sensor at my furnance and its changes speed pretty quickly at the polebarn. If I remember right, it was almost 300.00 with shipping but it does what I want without having to use a controller and 3 way valve.

 

[barnartist]

So is everyone telling me then I cannot automatically control an otherwise manually controlled pump? Has to be a way...

 

[DaveBP]

So is everyone telling me then I cannot automatically control an otherwise manually controlled pump? Has to be a way…

There apparently are a number of ways. The Tekmar 157 that I referenced says it will vary the speed of several standard circulators. The Grundfos 1558 is a manually set 3-speed model similar to yours as you describe on the Laddomat. It is on the list as well as a number of others of different makes. I assume it varies the voltage to the motor to change speeds. Can't imagine they would require you to hack into the internal switches and vaporize the warranty. But it is over $200 as I remember.

Nofossil's multirelay hack sounds like a real breakthrough in terms of cost. Controlling those relays for those of us that are not electromechanical engineers by profession is a solution I hope to see announced on this forum someday.

 

[mysticfalcon]

you could just do it with 3 aquastats at different temps. I've thought about that but by the time you add up all the aquastats and labor that would go into it i dont think it would be worthwhile.

 

[Dave T]

I could be wrong but I think nofossil visited a guy in VT near him and he saw a pump being controlled by a ceiling fan type of speed control maybe nofossil will chime in on this one..Dave

 

[Nofossil]

I could be wrong but I think nofossil visited a guy in VT near him and he saw a pump being controlled by a ceiling fan type of speed control maybe nofossil will chime in on this one..Dave

You guys have amazing memories. I think I mentioned that once, deep inside another thread. The guy I visited participates here as well. He used a fan speed control on his Taco circulator, and it seemed like it worked. No hard data, though.

 

[barnartist]

So it probably can be done but is the cost worth a few peices of wood. Several peices a day however would be worth while I think. I suppose I need to figure out what the effects are.
Maybe I only need to be able to shut it down completely after a set temp. I'm not confident it is self circulating properly, but then I suppose the control might restart the pump long enough to rid the heat build up.

 

[taxidermist]

I have not had my first fire yet but I just installed a switch with a slide bar for celing fans and I ran the pump today and it seems to work ok.

 

[Kipstr]

The fan control switch that I'm using is the 3 speed. And thus far is working just as I had hoped. The slide bar switch would work that much better (infinite adjustment). My problem was moving water from storage to my zones, the zones were ghosting. So for about $30, tied to a pump that is allread installed, it's a cheap fix.

 

[barnartist]

Get that fire going Taxi, we similar.