checking out a house's electrical system

[peakbagger]

Yes.

If you want to be "solar ready" put in a 225 amp rated bus panel but put in a 200 Amp main. It allows more solar panels to be added to the house as a 200 amp bus can only have 20% of the bus rating with PV so 200*20% = 40 AMPs. Putting in the 225 amp bus lets you go to 45 Amps, a 250 amp bus goes up to 50 amps.

 

[EbS-P]

Yes, here too, where I'm thinking of upgrading to 225amp and replacing the panel, the AHJ says I needn't go to AFCI breakers.

I looked into the residential house fire numbers and decided replacing all my outlets because the old ones plugs were falling out of was lowering my risk enough to be comfortable not going afci. But I did replace and install smoke detectors in every room

 

[fbelec]

replaced plenty in my time majority were leviton

 

[RustyShackleford]

If you want to be "solar ready" put in a 225 amp rated bus panel but put in a 200 Amp main. It allows more solar panels to be added to the house as a 200 amp bus can only have 20% of the bus rating with PV so 200*20% = 40 AMPs. Putting in the 225 amp bus lets you go to 45 Amps, a 250 amp bus goes up to 50 amps.

I already have some solar panels, just 4.32kW. But I'm doing line-side tap (connecting to the cables that go from meter to main breaker) so loading of the busbars is not an issue.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I looked into the residential house fire numbers and decided replacing all my outlets because the old ones plugs were falling out of was lowering my risk enough to be comfortable not going afci.

Great idea. I also have some outlets where the box is set too far back, so the yoke isn't snug against the box, so there's lots of movement when plugging/unplugging. Apparently that can work the wire connections, and there are spacers you can install, to make the yoke snug against the box. I think these just go on the screws. But I can't figure out where to source them.

 

[festerw]

Great idea. I also have some outlets where the box is set too far back, so the yoke isn't snug against the box, so there's lots of movement when plugging/unplugging. Apparently that can work the wire connections, and there are spacers you can install, to make the yoke snug against the box. I think these just go on the screws. But I can't figure out where to source them.

There's a couple types.

(broken link removed)

(broken link removed)

 

[EbS-P]

Great idea. I also have some outlets where the box is set too far back, so the yoke isn't snug against the box, so there's lots of movement when plugging/unplugging. Apparently that can work the wire connections, and there are spacers you can install, to make the yoke snug against the box. I think these just go on the screws. But I can't figure out where to source them.

So you can place an afci or afci/outlet on the first one in the the circuit and protect the rest further down the line. I did this once I should do the rest. Of the bedrooms.

 

[EbS-P]

So you can place an afci or afci/outlet on the first one in the the circuit and protect the rest further down the line. I did this once I should do the rest. Of the bedrooms.

I can confirm that the afci outlet will trip before the breakers on direct short to ground. I was messing with my thermal switch on the blower while not unplugging it. Hot side hit the metal case and arced. My outlet reset was 10’ away while the panel was outside. Very safe. and convenient not to go outside to reset.

 

[RustyShackleford]

So, to followup on my OP ... The "professional electrician" came out and just put back a rusty screw that held the cover on. I asked if the POCO would be upset that clearly the thing had been open and he said no, because they read the meters remotely (so no one looks at it) and if they don't notice an oddly-low bill, they aren't suspicious. About $150. minimum charge for a service call I believe.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Meanwhile, a well-regarded company gave a bid on replacing the Federal Pacific panel in the other house. It was $3500; about $2000 for parts, quoted at roughly double the price I could get 'em from at Home Depot. And 8 hrs @ $185/hr - reasonable time, but crazy rate. As far as parts, I guess a markup from DIY price is pretty standard, and the panel is not actually in-stock at the lower price (Siemens 20space/40circuit 200amp outdoor); supply-chain thing I guess. And of course they wanted to install 11 AFCI breakers at $75 a pop; I re-confirmed that my AHJ does not require AFCI upgrade on a simple panel replacement.

I've VERY tempted to do it myself. Understanding that it's the most ambitious thing I've tried, and generally not considered appropriate for DIY. In some ways it's pretty easy; for example, the power comes in underground, so no hassling with risers and weather-head. The branch circuits all come into the bottom of the panel in 2" PVC conduit from the crawlspace - so no messing with knockouts and staples (I'm not sure if the wires are stapled in the crawlspace, but I don't think that's my concern). And the ground/neutral bar is near the top of the old panel, so I don't think I'll have wire-length issues.

I even told the AHJ, I know an un-licensed person can only work on their own home, but what if owner gets the permit, naming himself as contractor, and I do the work ? He said, sure, if you know the guy well; hey, if he sues me, it's going to come out of his inheritance, at least indirectly ...

 

[fbelec]

I even told the AHJ, I know an un-licensed person can only work on their own home, but what if owner gets the permit, naming himself as contractor, and I do the work ? He said, sure, if you know the guy well; hey, if he sues me, it's going to come out of his inheritance, at least indirectly ...

lol. just don't blow up the underground cable very expensive fix

 

[RustyShackleford]

lol. just don't blow up the underground cable very expensive fix

I realize you're kinda joking, but how might I do that ? Shorting any two of them together, I suppose. But the connections to the line side of the meter base are the POCO's responsibility, right ? - seems like they'd have to be, as I can't de-energize the wires from the transformer.. I could short them on the load side of the meter, but would that short-circuit current get back through the meter to damage the underground wires ? Also, I suspect the transformer has some kind of fuse. BTW, rural sub-division, so dedicated transformer for each house.

 

[EbS-P]

Check out the plug on neutral panels seems like the way to go.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Check out the plug on neutral panels seems like the way to go.

Yeah, those look cool. Although I don't fancy putting many, if any, AFCI breakers in; and for the necessary GFCIs, using outlets instead of breakers. I have Siemens in my house, so will probably stick with them. One thing about these plug-on neutral types: I believe the enclosures are not as tall, therefore a bit more of a pain to run all your conductors ... my house's 20-space/40-circuit one is 30" tall, whereas the equivalent PN one is only 27".

 

[EbS-P]

Yeah, those look cool. Although I don't fancy putting many, if any, AFCI breakers in; and for the necessary GFCIs, using outlets instead of breakers. I have Siemens in my house, so will probably stick with them. One thing about these plug-on neutral types: I believe the enclosures are not as tall, therefore a bit more of a pain to run all your conductors ... my house's 20-space/40-circuit one is 30" tall, whereas the equivalent PN one is only 27".

I do wonder this time of year how many living room fires could prevented by AFCI protection? Family lost about of their 3/4 million $ house yesterday here in town.

 

[fbelec]

if the fire was started at the tree arc fault wouldn't have made a difference. that tree (most likely real) would have went up start to finish about 30 seconds to a minute. if anybody out there thinks i'm exaggerating find a christmas tree and start a fire outdoors then throw it on the fire.
as far as the meter in order to have the meter deenergized call your power company a few days ahead of when you plan to do it and they will turn you off. don't ever short out wires to blow the fuse or breaker. if in the house you could take out a splice and wire nut and if you find it it most likely will take you hours if it's not a buried box. then you are r maybe running a new line. if you short the wires on the line side of the meter taking them off live (if they touch the meter box they short) most likely you'll blow out the underground wires before you take out the transformer or fuse on the high voltage side of the transformer and if it all shorts together before the fuse blows out you might have 13800 volts come into the house where it blows everything you have. and if they find out it's you you pay for everything bad including the transformer and lines. they tell you that the lines to the meter are them but when it all comes down to the brass tacks you pay for it. round here they charge about 600 dollars to do the shut off and energize but well worth it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

if the fire was started at the tree arc fault wouldn't have made a difference. that tree (most likely real) would have went up start to finish about 30 seconds to a minute. if anybody out there thinks i'm exaggerating find a christmas tree and start a fire outdoors then throw it on the fire.
as far as the meter in order to have the meter deenergized call your power company a few days ahead of when you plan to do it and they will turn you off. don't ever short out wires to blow the fuse or breaker. if in the house you could take out a splice and wire nut and if you find it it most likely will take you hours if it's not a buried box. then you are r maybe running a new line. if you short the wires on the line side of the meter taking them off live (if they touch the meter box they short) most likely you'll blow out the underground wires before you take out the transformer or fuse on the high voltage side of the transformer and if it all shorts together before the fuse blows out you might have 13800 volts come into the house where it blows everything you have. and if they find out it's you you pay for everything bad including the transformer and lines. they tell you that the lines to the meter are them but when it all comes down to the brass tacks you pay for it. round here they charge about 600 dollars to do the shut off and energize but well worth it.

Yes, I'm remembering when I had them shut me down when I hooked-up my solar (using line-side taps on the cables from meter to main breaker) the guy who came out wanted to know if he should just pull meter or de-energize at the transformer - I chose to former, since I wasn't going to mess in meter box.

For this, I would have 'em disable at transformer, since I WILL be working in meter box, replacing the aluminum cables which go from meter to main breaker with copper. But they don't charge at all to do this ($600 is shocking ) - benefits of it being a coop, I guess.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Maybe I could veer into a question about panel neutrals and grounds, and planning my panel replacement. First off, I totally understand why grounds ad neutrals must be "bonded" together in the main panel, but not in sub-panels; we needn't discuss that. My confusion is in how.

Apparently most panels, including Siemens which I have, have a green "bonding screw". If appropriate, apparently you drive this screw in, and this connects the neutral bar to the metal enclosure, which is already connected to the ground bar(s). Is that all that makes this very important connection ? One screw ? Does it at least go into a threaded hole in the back of the enclosure, or does it simply gouge into the sheet metal ? If I want to add an add'l ground bar - for example, near the bottom of the panel in case my ground wires are too short on a panel replacement - can I simply screw the new ground bar into the enclosure with sheet metal screws, and I'm good to go ?

See the attached picture of the replacement panel I will probably use. The neutral bars are alongside the columns of breakers; I believe they are connected to each other, and one has the bonding screw. There are two ground bars near the top along each side. These are great if your branch circuits are entering from the top of the panel, but ALL of mine are coming in from the bottom, in a piece of 2" PVC conduit; hence I'd like to add a ground bar at the bottom. Perhaps could install the panel upside-down (with the main breaker at the bottom), but it's not clear if the opening there (marked "HS hub provision") can accommodate the existing 2" PVC conduit which contains all the branch-circuit romex. Thoughts ?

 

[peakbagger]

I beleive you are correct, its just a #10 screw that bonds it. On the other hand my panel has a #6 wire running from the ground bar to the neutral bar. Remember there should be no current running through this bond so the connection does not need to be large. I cannot comment on putting the panel upside down but you can add neutral and ground bars as long as they bonded to the other ones.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Another issue is space - for wire bending, add'l ground bar, and such. Check this screen-grab from the Siemens catalog. Note for the 30-space/48-circuit boxes, the "outside" version is 5" taller, whereas the "inside" versions fits 10 more "spaces" (5" vertically) into the same 30" height of my current 20-space/40-circuit box. So I'll be tempted to use the outside box even for my indoor situation.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Seems like code initially called for AFCI in bedrooms, but now virtually everywhere. I guess the idea was, with decent smoke detectors, only a fire in bedroom is likely to really get you. Good compromise, not being required to upgrade by code, might be to use them for bedroom outlet circuits.

 

[EbS-P]

Seems like code initially called for AFCI in bedrooms, but now virtually everywhere. I guess the idea was, with decent smoke detectors, only a fire in bedroom is likely to really get you. Good compromise, not being required to upgrade by code, might be to use them for bedroom outlet circuits.

All 240 volt appliances now have to be gfci protected. 100$ + for a breaker.

 

[RustyShackleford]

All 240 volt appliances now have to be gfci protected. 100$ + for a breaker.

Wow, that seems a bit silly.

Like I said, my AHJ does not require anything for a simple panel replacement - I'm just wondering what would be prudent from a safety perspective.

 

[EbS-P]

I like watching fire response videos on YouTube. From what I can see is attached garages are very significant ignition source. Candles and cigarettes and cooking fires. Get a shed for all flammables don’t burn candles or smoke get an air fryer.

Smoke detectors. Follow code for for sinks and tubs — 6 ft from sink and tub (2020 NEC defines 6 ft as if a 6 ft cord can reach the sink) afci living rooms and bedrooms.

Fuel load in homes and more open floor plans has decreased the survivability time to about half what it was 30 years ago. Remodels to our house fall right in line with that. Take out the door to the basement take down as many walls as we could. And cram lots of stuff inside. I get the point of the new code requirements and to some point just think they are trying to prevent stupid decisions from injuring people (like all ceiling box’s must support 50 lbs and the rating be stamped on the box).

To be honest the cost of doing a panel to code is probably about the same as my home owners deductible. 20 breakers at 100$ each.

My thoughts are Use common sense if in doubt which way to go always choose the safest option.

 

[fbelec]

All 240 volt appliances now have to be gfci protected. 100$ + for a breaker.

if you can find them