I have a Tarm solo40 with a 500 gallons pressurized propane storage tank. Reading some other posts about the rather short life expectency of these boilers, whats the best way to check and adjust if necessary the boiler water ph level?
Checking PH level
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chuck172 said:
??????
I hope gasifiers have a pretty long life, and can't see why they wouldn't.
I know people with older, non-gasifier wood boilers that are going on several decades.
get an aquarium ph test kit to test the ph, if your manufacturers manual gives a specific range you can adjust the ph with a corrosion inhibitor, some on this site know what the correct chemicals to use are, I just use the corrosion inhibitor and test kit that CB sells. Possibly a pet store would have chemicals to change to more acid or base since aquariums need to be adjusted the same way. (of course you are talking hundreds of gallons instead of just a few) but if you could get the chemicals off the additive for an aquarium they should be the same stuff.
swimming pools need to be tested the same way, possibly another source.
swimming pools need to be tested the same way, possibly another source.
I don't know if it's the best way, but I tested my water before I filled the sys. using Tetra PH tester. A lot of PH testers only go to 8, but Tetra goes to 9 which was recommended by my Tarm manual (8.5-9). Before adjusting the PH, I read a lot of tech. material on the net. I came to the conclusion that the best (and very easy) way to get the PH up to 8.5-9 was to use TSP. You can get it at HD or any hardware. I raised 1000 gal. from 6.8 to 8.5 with about 6 lbs. or so. It's inexpensive and "they" say it cleans the pipes as it circulates. I have an open sys. but I also raised the boiler water the same way.
Sounds like an easy fix. Do you just add the tsp in powder form to the boiler water? If I add it to the storage tank, I guess it will all mix through the whole system when the circulators are running.
The best method is to clean the system first. Hydronic system cleaners are best as they have a bunch of chemical to clean AND condition the metals. Plenty of installers use TSP, basically a strong soap. Steam guys like TSP as it leaves the ph a bit alkaline, around 9-11, which is good in a steam system, they tell me.
But I think you want to flush the TSP or cleaner, then re-fill with good water. Leaving the soap in the system may not be good for seals, and rubber components.
Check the hardness of your fill water. If it is harder than the manufacturers suggested level, consider getting some DI or DM water from a water treatment supplier, and blend some in or use it straight. Around here I pay about 10- 20 cents a gallon. They fill a 55 gallon plastic barrel for me.
Ideally you would add a hydronic system conditioner after the clean, flush, and refill sequence.
A good conditioner will buffer the ph, coat the bare metal, scavange the O2, lock up any hardness (to a point) and smell funny
Conditioners are really the best way to protect that investment. Even a 2mm layer of hardness on the boiler surfaces will drop HX efficiency about 15%. Never use hard water to fill as it will coat you HX from day one.
Rhomar Water is a good brand of cleaners and conditioners. Hercules, RectorSeal and many of the plumbing chemical suppliers have boiler treatment chemicals.
You get what you pay for with chemical treatments. The more expensive ones have more components. I believe the Rhomar conditioner has 35 ingredients, as it is a true multi metal conditioner that is safe for copper, steel, iron, brass, aluminum, stainless, plastics, etc.
The final ph will depend on what you put in or add to the water. Most conditioners leave the ph in the 8-10 range. If you go with plain water buffer it to neutral.
hr
But I think you want to flush the TSP or cleaner, then re-fill with good water. Leaving the soap in the system may not be good for seals, and rubber components.
Check the hardness of your fill water. If it is harder than the manufacturers suggested level, consider getting some DI or DM water from a water treatment supplier, and blend some in or use it straight. Around here I pay about 10- 20 cents a gallon. They fill a 55 gallon plastic barrel for me.
Ideally you would add a hydronic system conditioner after the clean, flush, and refill sequence.
A good conditioner will buffer the ph, coat the bare metal, scavange the O2, lock up any hardness (to a point) and smell funny
Conditioners are really the best way to protect that investment. Even a 2mm layer of hardness on the boiler surfaces will drop HX efficiency about 15%. Never use hard water to fill as it will coat you HX from day one.
Rhomar Water is a good brand of cleaners and conditioners. Hercules, RectorSeal and many of the plumbing chemical suppliers have boiler treatment chemicals.
You get what you pay for with chemical treatments. The more expensive ones have more components. I believe the Rhomar conditioner has 35 ingredients, as it is a true multi metal conditioner that is safe for copper, steel, iron, brass, aluminum, stainless, plastics, etc.
The final ph will depend on what you put in or add to the water. Most conditioners leave the ph in the 8-10 range. If you go with plain water buffer it to neutral.
hr
Looks like my easy fix is getting more complicated. Has anyone used 
broken link removed)
Seems like wood boilers are their specialty.
broken link removed)Seems like wood boilers are their specialty.
Looks like a great website. I used Hercules boiler water conditioner and cleaner. This cost only about $10 or so, and is available at Lowes.
Does anyone out there know if boiler treatment chemicals have to be added to make the same % concentration as the system gets larger? Rhomar says add 1 gallon to 50 gallons of system volume. For a system with a 1000 gallon pressurized storage tank the total system volume could easily be over 1200 gallons. That's 24 gallons of chemical to add at a cost of about $2000!!
Or like some chemicals, is it enough to have a few pounds of the stuff floating around in there because it is intended to react with the metal surfaces which are an exponentially smaller percentage of the system volume as it gets larger. Adding more of the stuff shouldn't change the pH, it just increases the concentration of the ions.
I dropped out of the University of California in the middle of a chemistry class so maybe I missed that lecture.
Or like some chemicals, is it enough to have a few pounds of the stuff floating around in there because it is intended to react with the metal surfaces which are an exponentially smaller percentage of the system volume as it gets larger. Adding more of the stuff shouldn't change the pH, it just increases the concentration of the ions.
I dropped out of the University of California in the middle of a chemistry class so maybe I missed that lecture.
DaveBP said:
I stayed in my dorm room and made myself study 90 minutes of the chemistry text, 3 times per week, while Asst. lecturer Vasudev spoke incomprehensibly with his back turned to 320 students while he drew electron orbits in his inarticulate fog............
here is what I used i my own system---
(broken link removed to http://www.rectorseal.com/files/172/ds8way.pdf)
I went the easy route - sodium hydroxide (lye) - available in the hardware store, used to clean drains, very inexpensive. Some say TSP also OK and maybe a little safer to use, as lye can cause burns and worse (don't splatter into eyes, etc.) to humans during mixing if not careful. The more sodium hydroxide you add, the higher the pH goes. And I used sodium sulfite as the O2 scavenger. Also inexpensive. In a closed system, one treatment should do it, unless a lot of new water is added. I'm sure there is a chemistry way to calculate in advance how much is needed based on volume and starting pH, but I just winged it until pH got to where I wanted it (between 8-9).
Don't know about their products, but that Wood Boiler Solutions site that chuck172 mentioned a couple posts back seemed like they know what they are talking about... I would say it's worth reading their info pages even if you decide not to use their products... (Assuming the products work as advertised, their prices didn't sound unreasonable either)
Most everything they said matched up with what I've seen in other discussions about water chemistry, both here about boilers, and other applications where there is a need to improve on plain water as a coolant. - I didn't see anything that made me think that snake-oil was part of their ingredients list.
OTOH, I'm not at all sure I like the idea of running lye into a system like JE mentioned, other than possibly as part of a clean and thorough flush afterwards cycle... Yes it will change the pH, but it's also a powerfully nasty reagent, and I don't know what there is in a system that would neutralize it so that it would't attack the metals in it... NOT saying it's "wrong" but I would want to see a lot of evidence that it's a good approach.
Gooserider
Most everything they said matched up with what I've seen in other discussions about water chemistry, both here about boilers, and other applications where there is a need to improve on plain water as a coolant. - I didn't see anything that made me think that snake-oil was part of their ingredients list.
OTOH, I'm not at all sure I like the idea of running lye into a system like JE mentioned, other than possibly as part of a clean and thorough flush afterwards cycle... Yes it will change the pH, but it's also a powerfully nasty reagent, and I don't know what there is in a system that would neutralize it so that it would't attack the metals in it... NOT saying it's "wrong" but I would want to see a lot of evidence that it's a good approach.
Gooserider
First, I am following up on research and chemical analysis of the boiler water with the treatments I have used and will report the results. Be patient, as this may take some time.
Second, keep in mind that lye, aka caustic soda aka sodium hydroxide (NaOH), reacts with the H ion in acids to form water (H2O) + compound (depending on the acid). This is the
mentioned, but is no more than a neutralizing reaction when performed properly. In other words, the lye is being used because the water pH is acidic, and the acidic water is neutralizing the lye. The formation of water is not the issue, but the question is whether the resulting compounds, based on the acids being neutralized, are an issue for corrosion, pitting, scale, cracking, etc. Since I'm not a chemist nor a metallurgist, I'm guessing the answer is complex.
The lye is not being used as a clean and flush; it is being used to neutralize acidic water and achieve a pH of 8-9.
Third, the answer may be different for closed systems and open systems.
There are other acid (pH < 7) neutralizing compounds besides sodium hydroxide. Some have been mentioned in other posts. These other compounds may be "safer" to use from a handling perspective, and they all raise pH, but the issue remains as to the corrosive properties of their resulting neutralizing compounds.
The article Corrosion Inhibitors has information of interest.
Good news and better news. The good news. After talking with Mike at PrecisionChem Wood Boiler Solutions LLC, I am comfortable in concluding my self-formulated boiler water treatment program was OK and certainly did no harm. By way of summary, due to naturally acidic well water (pH of 6.5), I treated 1000+ gal of water with sodium hydroxide (+ some calcium carbonate) to raise pH to 8.5 and used sodium sulfite as an O2 scavenger. Total alkalinity < 700.
The better news. Mike convinced me that the boiler chemical pre-clean/flush followed by treatment chemical provided by his company is better than what I had done and will better insure long boiler life. What also tipped the scale in favor of a new treatment program is that this company also provides treatment chemicals and water testing for Garn.
Yesterday I drained and flushed the entire system, all clear water, but some crud flushed out from the bottom of the storage tank. Next is a refill and adding the boiler chemical pre-clean, firing the boiler and circulating the solution for 12-24 hours, followed by another drain and flush. Then refill and adding the boiler treatment chemical, firing the boiler and circulating the solution. At the end of this I will be curious as to what final pH will be (pH is one but not the only critical indicator). Hope to get this all done by early next week.
The better news. Mike convinced me that the boiler chemical pre-clean/flush followed by treatment chemical provided by his company is better than what I had done and will better insure long boiler life. What also tipped the scale in favor of a new treatment program is that this company also provides treatment chemicals and water testing for Garn.
Yesterday I drained and flushed the entire system, all clear water, but some crud flushed out from the bottom of the storage tank. Next is a refill and adding the boiler chemical pre-clean, firing the boiler and circulating the solution for 12-24 hours, followed by another drain and flush. Then refill and adding the boiler treatment chemical, firing the boiler and circulating the solution. At the end of this I will be curious as to what final pH will be (pH is one but not the only critical indicator). Hope to get this all done by early next week.
Jim,
How much of the each solution did they recommend you use on a 1000 gallon + boiler volume system? From their website it looks like 3 of the 1/2 gallon jugs of each chemical would be the cheapest route to their recommended dose. Does that jibe with your phone conversation?
I'm in your situation by this coming winter, Tarm 40 + 1000 gallon propane tank.
How much of the each solution did they recommend you use on a 1000 gallon + boiler volume system? From their website it looks like 3 of the 1/2 gallon jugs of each chemical would be the cheapest route to their recommended dose. Does that jibe with your phone conversation?
I'm in your situation by this coming winter, Tarm 40 + 1000 gallon propane tank.
The recommendation was 2.5 gal of PreCln-776 System Cleaner & Passivator and 2.5 gal of CLT-550 Closed System Conditioner & Corrosion Inhibitor. Mike said to use 2.0 gal of CLT-550 and then use the 0.5 gal 2 years later.
With the Cleaner: fill system full and circulate 12-24 hours with hot water; drain; partial fill (enough to circulate); circulate and flush; repeat until water clear.
With the Cleaner: fill system full and circulate 12-24 hours with hot water; drain; partial fill (enough to circulate); circulate and flush; repeat until water clear.
Are we looking at the same site Jebatty?
I'm seeing directions like:
Step 1 Flush system with clean water. Add Prep Solution 102™ per directions.
Step 2 Drain and flush thoroughly.
Step 3 Refill and add required amount of Treatment Solution 101™ per directions. System is ready to use.
Step 4 Test chemical level biannually, adding as necessary to always maintain a proper chemical level.
Step 5 Add Biological Solution per instructions every third season or as necessary to control biological growth.
I'm seeing directions like:
Step 1 Flush system with clean water. Add Prep Solution 102™ per directions.
Step 2 Drain and flush thoroughly.
Step 3 Refill and add required amount of Treatment Solution 101™ per directions. System is ready to use.
Step 4 Test chemical level biannually, adding as necessary to always maintain a proper chemical level.
Step 5 Add Biological Solution per instructions every third season or as necessary to control biological growth.
The info I gave came directly from Mike. I did not see this info on the website. The solutions mentioned are for a closed (pressurized) system, not for an open system like the Garn. You may want to contact the company regarding your particular situation.
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