Chimney Retrofit?

[RomanW]

Hey everyone.

So my home has an old Superior wood burner with destroyed refractory panels (We bought the home a few months ago), and during the process of trying to find replacements, we decided to scrap that idea and go the wood stove route. Save some money, keep it away from the gas man. Enjoy a fire inside while its freezing outside ya know?

Anyways, I was chatting with a gentleman at Mr. Fireplace this past weekend about how to go about installing one while currently having a wood burning insert, and he said to yank the whole thing out and run a new chimney up through the same hole it came out of. Just set the stove just outside the wall, pipe up a bit and 90 it into the space where the old insert was, connect a Tee for a cleanout and run a chimney straight up from that.

Can this be done? Has anyone done some thing like this? I'm pretty handy, but need a little direction here.

I'm planning on putting in either a Drolet Escape 2100 or a Austral III, which both need a 12' chimney. I know that will make things interesting since I have a feeling the chimney may stick out pretty far to get that height depending on how I pipe it inside the house.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Sorry if none of this makes sense, I'm new to the stove/fireplace/chimney world.

 

[bholler]

Hey everyone.

So my home has an old Superior wood burner with destroyed refractory panels (We bought the home a few months ago), and during the process of trying to find replacements, we decided to scrap that idea and go the wood stove route. Save some money, keep it away from the gas man. Enjoy a fire inside while its freezing outside ya know?

Anyways, I was chatting with a gentleman at Mr. Fireplace this past weekend about how to go about installing one while currently having a wood burning insert, and he said to yank the whole thing out and run a new chimney up through the same hole it came out of. Just set the stove just outside the wall, pipe up a bit and 90 it into the space where the old insert was, connect a Tee for a cleanout and run a chimney straight up from that.

Can this be done? Has anyone done some thing like this? I'm pretty handy, but need a little direction here.

I'm planning on putting in either a Drolet Escape 2100 or a Austral III, which both need a 12' chimney. I know that will make things interesting since I have a feeling the chimney may stick out pretty far to get that height depending on how I pipe it inside the house.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Sorry if none of this makes sense, I'm new to the stove/fireplace/chimney world.

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As long as you are talking about installing actual chimney pipe that is certainly a viable plan

 

[kennyp2339]

Looks like you existing setup is a zero clearance fireplace, like the salesman said, gut all of it, remove the old air cooled chimney, remove the old fireplace, install new class A pipe with a through the wall kit, board up the old opening from the fireplace to the living space (unless you make it more open for approved alcove installation per freestanding stove spec) lay down a hearth (buying a freestanding stove with ember protection only) pipe in to new class a pipe following clearances from back of stove to new boarded up wall (former fireplace entrance)

 

[EbS-P]

Looks like you existing setup is a zero clearance fireplace, like the salesman said, gut all of it, remove the old air cooled chimney, remove the old fireplace, install new class A pipe with a through the wall kit, board up the old opening from the fireplace to the living space (unless you make it more open for approved alcove installation per freestanding stove spec) lay down a hearth (buying a freestanding stove with ember protection only) pipe in to new class a pipe following clearances from back of stove to new boarded up wall (former fireplace entrance)

^^ this

 

[coaly]

Sounds like you may be doing this yourself.

Nothing special required, read the installation instructions for the chimney system you choose. Follow them exactly. It must be a Class A, HT rated chimney, the same diameter as the stove outlet. You cannot mix and match chimney parts. It becomes a UL Listed assembly when installed as per manufacturers installation instructions.

All clearances of combustible material to outside wall of chimney pipe is normally 2 inches. There are two types of chimney. Triple wall, which has a thin layer of insulation around inner flue with a secondary airspace between middle pipe and outer pipe. This will be 10 inch OD for 6 inch flue. The second type is “pack” chimney, or double wall. This has heavy dense insulation between inner and outer pipes. This will be 8 inches OD for 6 inch flue. This type stays hotter inside, which is what you want, a little more expensive, but allows the smaller opening for clearances. Both have the same clearance required to combustibles and both are rated for 1000*f constant and tested with three chimney fires at 10 minute duration each at 2100*f.

Those are the basics, ask as you go if you run into anything you don’t understand.

 

[peakbagger]

My guess is you will need the top of the chimney to be higher. Read your manual on minimum elevation. You may need some extra pipe above the roof and some support cables. I think 15' is popular number but others have far better info.

 

[begreen]

While the Drolet will work on a 12' chimney, adding 90º turns to the flue path adds resistance to the flue gases. In order to maintain draft, additional chimney pipe needs to be added to compensate. One option for this is to carefully plan for turning the space where the fireplace sits into an alcove. There are some strict clearance rules to follow, but in the end it will permit a straight-up chimney with no elbow or tee which will reduce costs.

PS: I would consider the Drolet Myriad or Legend instead of the Austral. The Austral has no side shielding which makes it much more radiant and thus needed greater clearances. The Myriad and Legend have the same internals as the Austral, just with more shielding on the outside to make it less radiant and more convective.

OK, that said, let's make sure that these are not too big for the area being heated. The stove mentioned are large, serious heaters. What is the floor plan like, open, or closed off by doorways? How many sq ft will be heated? How well insulated is the house? And what part of Canada are you in?

 

[RomanW]

Looks like you existing setup is a zero clearance fireplace, like the salesman said, gut all of it, remove the old air cooled chimney, remove the old fireplace, install new class A pipe with a through the wall kit, board up the old opening from the fireplace to the living space (unless you make it more open for approved alcove installation per freestanding stove spec) lay down a hearth (buying a freestanding stove with ember protection only) pipe in to new class a pipe following clearances from back of stove to new boarded up wall (former fireplace entrance)

It looks like someone has been in there before, because the wall that the "stone" is glued to is either separate drywall or cement board that has been screwed to the studs. I was going to remove the whole section of wall, and go from there. Maybe turn it into an alcove.

 

[RomanW]

While the Drolet will work on a 12' chimney, adding 90º turns to the flue path adds resistance to the flue gases. In order to maintain draft, additional chimney pipe needs to be added to compensate. One option for this is to carefully plan for turning the space where the fireplace sits into an alcove. There are some strict clearance rules to follow, but in the end it will permit a straight-up chimney with no elbow or tee which will reduce costs.

PS: I would consider the Drolet Myriad or Legend instead of the Austral. The Austral has no side shielding which makes it much more radiant and thus needed greater clearances. The Myriad and Legend have the same internals as the Austral, just with more shielding on the outside to make it less radiant and more convective.

OK, that said, let's make sure that these are not too big for the area being heated. The stove mentioned are large, serious heaters. What is the floor plan like, open, or closed off by doorways? How many sq ft will be heated? How well insulated is the house? And what part of Canada are you in?

Appreciate the questions.

I wanted the Myriad but it's not available until January, and I don't like the look of the Legend lol.

I've had quite the journey with choosing a stove. I was first recommended the Quadrafire 3100, then the sales guy got me onto the 4300. Then talking with a buddy of mine who is installing a new stove himself is going with the Drolet 1800, and I originally wanted to go that route but didn't think it would be enough for my space, or the placement of the stove. Then I figured why not the 2300, but thought it might be too much, and throttled back to the Austral. What I like about the Austral/Myriad/Legend/Black Stag is that you can still put the wood in N/S and get a 10 hour burn, whereas the 1800 is only E/W bringing it back to 8 hr max burn.

The floor plan is fairly open on the top floor. Its a bi-level. The basement has in floor heating. The main room it would be in is effectively 600 sq.ft with vaulted ceilings and it is open to the entry way ceiling. Call me crazy, but I had a thought of running some ducting with an inline fan from the vaulted part of the ceiling to the two rooms on the other side of the house to use the hot air up there to heat the rooms up, since only a hallway connects all the areas. The master is 300 sq.ft, the other bedroom is 140 sq.ft, and the office is another 140 sq.ft. So I guess all in all 1200 sq.ft, half of which I know isn't in direct proximity to the stove and wouldn't be directly heated by it. The house is still original 1995, so its insulated ok, but I don't know how drafty it is yet, this will be the first winter in it. We are having the windows replaced soon as well. We are in central Alberta, which falls in zone 7-8 according to Drolet's chart.

Now thinking about it... maybe the 1800 would be ok... And with the sides it has, might be a good option for putting it in an alcove with dual walled pipe...

 

[begreen]

Yes, the 1800 would work. It's going to be a challenge to get a stove this season. Demand is high.

 

[RomanW]

Yeah I just checked their site again, and the 1800 isn't available until the end of the month.

At least that's better than January...

 

[RomanW]

Hey everyone,

So I did some measuring to see if alcoving the stove would work, and sadly it will not (At least I'm not able to see how it would work without major structural changes). The depth is good, but I don't have 18" of clearance on either side of the stove to the walls of the chimney chase (or whatever it's called) which is needed according to Drolet's installation manual.

So I've done some art class stuff and drew you a crappy picture lol.

The green is my current set up with the wood burning insert. In blue, I've shown what I think I can do, and what has been suggested (@kennyp2339 I think you were suggesting the #2 portion, except going through the current wall that would be boarded up?). My thought is to remove that stone wall and open it right up. The #1 option is what Mr. Fireplace suggested (With a Tee on the second 90 to include a clean out). Now, I don't know if there is a rule for how high your pipe connector is to come off of the top of the stove, I could use some guidance on that, but is that included in the chimney height? Or does the chimney height only start when connected to the class A portion?

There isn't much height in that chase, and I'm wondering if I'm stuck with having a rocket sticking out of the top of the case so I can get the height I need for good draw. I assume 2 45's would help with draw, but make cleaning this out a major pain in the arse.

What would you suggest I do? I'd like to use the existing chase if I'm honest. But can I have 6ish feet of pipe coming out of the top? I imagine I would have to support that extended pipe, which would also mean having big long supports on the roof as well, adding to the unsightliness. But if that's what it is, it is what it is, and my house will be warm.

I hope some of that makes sense. Look forward to hearing what you've got!

 

[kennyp2339]

Your existing chimney chase is exactly that, not good for anything else, you'll want a minimum 3ft above the stove for the T connection, and you'll want to make sure the clean out cap is screwed into the T (as to never remove since access to the clean out is non-existent once the opening of the old fireplace is sealed and finished) The 3ft connection above the stove helps because you'll want to install (2) 45 elbows rather then a 90 elbow, this allows for less turbulence in the smoke and better draft on shorter chimney heights.
The only thing that might jam up this install is the wet inspection w/ anchoring the class A chimney in the existing chase, the chase might be to tight to have someone at say the 8ft level install the anchor for the pipe, but a higher thimble kit might reduce the need for a mid anchor connection in the chase then you'll have the bottom plate the T gets mounted to and an anchor that can be installed via top of chase reaching into it.

 

[RomanW]

Your existing chimney chase is exactly that, not good for anything else, you'll want a minimum 3ft above the stove for the T connection, and you'll want to make sure the clean out cap is screwed into the T (as to never remove since access to the clean out is non-existent once the opening of the old fireplace is sealed and finished) The 3ft connection above the stove helps because you'll want to install (2) 45 elbows rather then a 90 elbow, this allows for less turbulence in the smoke and better draft on shorter chimney heights.
The only thing that might jam up this install is the wet inspection w/ anchoring the class A chimney in the existing chase, the chase might be to tight to have someone at say the 8ft level install the anchor for the pipe, but a higher thimble kit might reduce the need for a mid anchor connection in the chase then you'll have the bottom plate the T gets mounted to and an anchor that can be installed via top of chase reaching into it.

Right, but if I don't seal that wall up, and open it up to where that upper blue mark is on the wall, would I still do the same thing? Only leave the clean out able to be removed?

 

[Riverbanks]

What about? Open up the chase, insulate, cover with a suitable wall covering, put in a ceiling and with a flat ceiling support box, start the class"a" there?

 

[RomanW]

What about? Open up the chase, insulate, cover with a suitable wall covering, put in a ceiling and with a flat ceiling support box, start the class"a" there?

I could... But that would mean I would have 8-10 feet of chimney sticking out the top of the chase externally. But now that I think about it, if I have to have 3 feet of connector up from the stove, I'm going to have 7-8 feet sticking out of it anyways...

 

[Riverbanks]

Chimney length starts from the top of the stove. I was just thinking of another option for you, that bumpout was purpose built, now you are throwing a wrench into the plans, lol

 

[RomanW]

Chimney length starts from the top of the stove. I was just thinking of another option for you, that bumpout was purpose built, now you are throwing a wrench into the plans, lol

Ah, see that's the part that hadn't been answered yet. Then that makes it somewhat nicer. I agree, I'd like to use that space if I can. Another thought I had was, if I can't use it as an alcove, use that space for wood storage. Ensuring that I have enough of the proper clearance I don't see why that would be an issue. But I would have to go with the 2 45's then, and abandon the cleanout idea and deal with the extra work for cleaning just so I don't have potential ignition sources dropping onto the wood from the pipe (Which I shouldn't, but just trying to be proactive in my thinking.)

 

[Riverbanks]

It's good to be proactive, think ahead of any possible issue. What is wrong with what you have? Just curious

 

[RomanW]

What do you mean? My current set up?

 

[Riverbanks]

Yes, the current setup

 

[RomanW]

It's an old Superior wood burning insert with a blower. It's refractory panels are broken and are hard to source. Also, I'm trying to reduce the amount of energy I need to use to heat the house, so this is a way of reducing the electricity and gas bill. This insert wont be able to heat the floor it's on.

 

[Riverbanks]

Got it, what about another zc?

 

[RomanW]

I still have the problem of relying on electricity

 

[RomanW]

So I had a though,and am wondering what you all think.

Instead of removing the "stone" wall completely, just removing half of it, running the chimney connector up 3-4 feet then 90ing into and through the wall into the space behind, where I would install the tee with a cleanout, and 90 it up into the class A. It would hide the tee and pipe connection, and still look ok, I think anyways. I just don't know if it's kosher to do that. I remember there being a rule of only having 2 bends, but I can't remember if it was 2 45's or 2 90's...

I would still probably do what @Riverbanks suggested, and finish the interior of the chase up, and finishing the ceiling portion (I assume that's where the chimney support can go?)

Would it be possible to store wood in that space, or is that also a huge no no. I'm certain I know the answer, but sometimes I'm wrong LOL