Clean diesel

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The big emissions bogey for a diesel is NOx. There are two sources of NOx in any combustion device, fuel bound NOx and thermal NOx. Not much of an option for fuel bound NOx, whatever is in the fuel goes out the tailpipe, Thermal NOx is related to combustion temperature, Nitrogen in the combustion air starts to combine with oxygen as the flame temperature rises. The manufacturers are regulated on CO and NOx, one of the ways CO forms is the temps are too low so its a trade off, burn too cold to cut thermal NOx and CO rises, burn hot to cut CO and NOx rises. Diesel runs hotter than gas engines and will generate more atmospheric NOx. There are all sorts of tricks to try to reduce the flame temp like Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) but that reduces the power output. The alternative is to install downstream CO and NOx catalysts and the NOx catalyst requires ammonia to remove the NOx. The engine can be tuned for a hotter flame and things that impact performance like EGR can be removed so the engine runs better. Urea is converted to ammonia in the emissions equipment and as noted it can be problematical to deal with. The nice thing about urea is that its relatively safe if its spilled when stored and transported compared to the alternatives which are aqueous ammonia or anhydrous ammonia.

I could guess that VW was using EGR on their diesels and the chip was bypassing EGR when the throttle was used aggressively. A lot of the old superchips did that trick. By the way most manufacturers design their cars around emissions, many smaller cars are set up so the part throttle performance is somewhat constrained by the emissions controls, when the throttle is applied aggressively into the higher revs than the test would require, the upper rev band is lot more powerful. Many standards have keep the throttle cranked up a bit after an aggressive shift in order to burn off excess emissions caused by the load change in the motor. My Fiesta currently has an emissions recall on my EGR system and I expect that the cure is they will reprogram the chip to have it applied more aggressively. I don't plan to have it done.

One major commercial diesel engine manufacturer bet their company on designing truck and stationary engines without NOx catalysts a few years ago and they lost the bet, it cost them millions as their engines couldn't pass emissions. Looks like VW may have done the same.

I deal with large stationary engines on occasion, some companies offer two versions, one version uses all the tricks to avoid a CO and NOx catalyst and the other version has a CO NOx catalyst, inevitably the one with the catalysts are higher efficiency and easier to tune. The state of Mass has some of the toughest limits for CO and NOx in the country and there are no companies selling non catalyst versions.
 
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One major commercial diesel engine manufacturer bet their company on designing truck and stationary engines without NOx catalysts a few years ago and they lost the bet, it cost them millions as their engines couldn't pass emissions. Looks like

Lets not mention that brand name. That name has become the scorn of owners countrywide... and the company won't back any warranty claims or provide OEM parts support now. Of course that company also launched their own truck with their own new design (and built by another company) engine in it.....

Thats big business and how it works I guess.

I still prefer their pre Tier 3 emissions engines. especially the NZ series. I know people who are buying NZ engines and storing them. It's quite possible and reliable to turn an NZ to over 1000 flywheel horsepower with no dertimental effects to the engine.

Their final attempt at an emissions compliant engine didn't even really look like an engine at all. Looked more like a mass of hoses, wires and sensors and what self respecting manufacturer would install a 'furnace' with a spark plug on a diesel engine anyway???

When they come in the shop all the techs gimmace. A real PITA to work on.
 
My head is far from the sand.... I'm old but not senile and as far as insulting you, I wasn't directing my comment5s at anyone in partucular, just commenting on what I deal with everyday at my job / profession.

I don't care what you drive even if it's a bicycle because you paid for it, not me.

I never claimed you insulted me personally... you just insulted the entire nation of France and anyone who has ever tried to do right by our natural environment....


moving on...
 
I was under the impression that Mini-Cooper was Brtitish Leyland, not BMW but then I'm not a fan of them at all. I don't believe I've owned a car in the last decade that was 'fun' to drive... I look at motor vehicles as tools that makes life easier. I think the last fun car I had was a 66 Vette Stingray Convertible with a 427/390 and a 4 speed, that was a 'fun' car.
BMW has owned the Mini unit since 1994. Our Volt is the most fun car I've owned in awhile. Handles great and I get to go joy riding on juice from the sun.
 
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Frugality and maybe higher resale value? Torque is also a factor for those towing small rv trailer, boats, etc..
 
An interesting wrinkle in the EPA case against VW:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/international/volkswagen-shares-recall.html?_r=0

Like @SidecarFlip, I often wonder why people buy diesel passenger vehicles when you can buy a comparable gas vehicle for thousands less. Gas is cheaper than diesel in the great state of Ohio. The last time I looked you would need to keep a diesel car approximately 125k miles just to break even on the added up charge.

That's why we bought a Civic when the transmission went south on our VW TD 9 years ago. Which happened to be one year after the turbo gave it up.

9 years & 420,000 kms later & it still works like new (doesn't quite look like new anymore though).
 
I have gone through the economics a couple of times and end up with gas engine econoboxes. Things I run into

Cold weather gelling of diesel - A car owner is at the mercy of the gas station on this, in very cold weather the fuel is blended and has some additives to keep the fuel from gelling. If there is sharp cold spell, the mix may not keep up and once the fuel is gelled in a car, it has to be towed to warm garage and let sit for several hours. I now folks who proactively add cans of additive in cold weather but that stuff isn't cheap. Sure you can plut them in and VWs have fuel heaters but they still gell up.

VWs reliability record and nearest dealer - VWs are not particularly reliable unless they get maintained frequently, the nearest dealer is 60 miles and my friends with VWs have a favorite tow truck driver to call. They usually would buy them and after few years got sick of the tow bills. Local mechanics wont go near them.

Up front cost - NH has high excise taxes on cars and for five years its based on sticker price, Diesels generally have a 20% premium over an equivalent gas car so I get to pay extra for five years.

Fuel prices - The worldwide demand for diesel is higher than for gas and the pricing reflects it in normal markets. RIght now its on par with gas but generally its a premium. The premium frequently eats up the gas savings.

I do have diesel in the yard, a Mercedes Unimog, 16000 pounds and a 130 HP engine. I think it may have 250 foot pounds of torque. Mechanical injection and not once piece of electronics. It will gladly run with the batteries turned off.
 
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Its a loader backhoe based on Unimog 406 chassis. Cheaper than a new Kubota with a lot more capacity and road legal.

Would make a nice plow truck if I drop the accessories in winter.

Of course for the paranoid its all prepped for the inevitable EMP ;)
 

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Things are spiraling downhill at VW quickly. Their diesel software deception is in all vehicles with the EA 189 engine, about 11 million worldwide. According to the Guardian the company has lost $28 billion in stock value so far. !!! They are setting aside $7.2B to fix the software and regain public trust.

Could be this be the beginning of the end for diesel cars? Britain and France called for a Europe-wide investigation into all diesel cars to reassure the public. In Great Britain the UK campaign group Transport & Environment (T&E) warned that millions of cars could be recalled.

"T&E’s diesel expert, Jos Dings, said: “Our latest report demonstrated that almost 90% of diesel vehicles didn’t meet emission limits when they drive on the road. We are talking millions of vehicles.”"
http://www.theguardian.com/business...al-escalates-volkswagen-11m-vehicles-involved
 
I have a diesel and have altered the programming. In fact I use a 6 position adjustable computer that allows six different programs with one of them being bone stock for emissions testing if I were to ever have to do that.

I can't figure out from reading the writing of non-diesel savvy journalists what exactly VW did here. It is entirely possible to optimize the programming so that when being tested under the specified test protocol that your car passes but when being driven outside of the parameters, it doesn't. I expect this and we see it with stoves that are designed to pass the EPA test. The somewhat crappy journalism by ignorant writers makes it sound like there are two programs, one secretly used for testing and then a "switch" to a second retail program.

If the VW programming is just optimized for test passing but still pollutes too much (in somebody's opinion) then it is the EPA that needs to change their test protocol.

If VW really did change the program between test and retail then bad on VW.
 
VW already admitted to using software to cheat the emissions test.

The researchers from WVU found NOx levels significantly out of line under normal driving conditions. Identical tests on a BMW X5 diesel revealed no variation between test and normal mode.
 
I have a diesel and have altered the programming. In fact I use a 6 position adjustable computer that allows six different programs with one of them being bone stock for emissions testing if I were to ever have to do that.

I can't figure out from reading the writing of non-diesel savvy journalists what exactly VW did here. It is entirely possible to optimize the programming so that when being tested under the specified test protocol that your car passes but when being driven outside of the parameters, it doesn't. I expect this and we see it with stoves that are designed to pass the EPA test. The somewhat crappy journalism by ignorant writers makes it sound like there are two programs, one secretly used for testing and then a "switch" to a second retail program.

If the VW programming is just optimized for test passing but still pollutes too much (in somebody's opinion) then it is the EPA that needs to change their test protocol.

If VW really did change the program between test and retail then bad on VW.

The reporting Ive heard all claims that VW has explicity admitting placing a "defeat device" in the software that detect when its in the test cycle and enables emissions controls that are turned off in regular driving.

There was a lengthy segment on it on NPR this evening. Apparently the testing in Europe is much more lax and conducted entirely in MFG labs by staff that are on the MFG payroll... Apparently its trivially easy to cheat over there and it was only the stricter EPA testing regimen that caught them.

Its gonna go beyond just fines. If its as bad as is being claimed I suspect some VW execs might be going to jail over this one. They bet the company on a lie,

and got caught.
 
VW dealers here have been ordered to stop selling diesels - I suspect that's a world-wide company thing.

I was thinking it wasn't that bad when I heard the first short news blurb last week, but I think that was a wrong thought. This has huge doo-doo potential. Maybe I should run out & buy a used one to get in on the class-action action. :)
 
Maybe I should run out & buy a used one to get in on the class-action action.

Or get one before the new program screws them up. Hard to say what this will do to the used market.

Of course, people have been changing the programming on diesels ever since there was programming on diesels. Heck, they even changed the settings on the fuel pumps when things were all mechanical.

This whole thing might present opportunity for cheap TDI cars after the owners get the cars back with crappy programming but aren't willing to reprogram them.
 
Or get one before the new program screws them up. Hard to say what this will do to the used market.

.....................

This whole thing might present opportunity for cheap TDI cars after the owners get the cars back with crappy programming but aren't willing to reprogram them.

VW says they will no longer sell the cars in their 'certified pre-owned' program.
 
In Salt Lake City they are dealing with serious long winter temperature inversions. Instead of going after the main polluters which is soot from cars and trucks, they are trying to stop wood burning. Greater particulate pollution is in part why we have winter burn bans in our county. Increasing this pollution for personal gain is definitely against the law. Not trying to single anyone out. I know several folks that have hacked their diesels, some good friends too. But it seems a bit anti-social, like peeing in the pool. We're all on this tiny marble together and have to breathe the same air.
 
In Salt Lake City they are dealing with serious long winter temperature inversions. Instead of going after the main polluters which is soot from cars and trucks, they are trying to stop wood burning. Greater particulate pollution is in part why we have winter burn bans in our county. Increasing this pollution for personal gain is definitely against the law. Not trying to single anyone out. I know several folks that have hacked their diesels, some good friends too. But it seems a bit anti-social, like peeing in the pool. We're all on this tiny marble together and have to breathe the same air.

I definitely have a lot of respect for you and I'm not challenging you either when I say this. In the big picture of things, what's the trade off between cleaner emissions and the cost of fuel economy? I own a 2011 2500 diesel that gets 13 miles a gallon, the same truck in the 2008 edition has the same power & torque but gets 24 miles to the gallon. The only difference is the emission devices, and the restrictions that were put on them from the emission devices.
I feel (and just my opinion) that the def reburn / reduction of nox and particulates should only be on the commercial chassis trucks, not pick up trucks or cars.
Or even make a stipulation / exemption that if you can make a vehicle that can travel and get of 50 miles a gallon, the savings in fuel / resources would out weigh, imo the benefit of air pollution reduction.
Right now there's a cross roads going on, the are certain places to buy software to bypass the emissions and make your motor work better, while boosting power. This is were you get the immature people that select there tuners to the highest level and "roll coal" (black smoke on purpose) I have one of those devices, not installed yet, but I will soon be because I want fuel economy, not the black smoke.
 
I have a diesel and have altered the programming. In fact I use a 6 position adjustable computer that allows six different programs with one of them being bone stock for emissions testing if I were to ever have to do that.

I can't figure out from reading the writing of non-diesel savvy journalists what exactly VW did here. It is entirely possible to optimize the programming so that when being tested under the specified test protocol that your car passes but when being driven outside of the parameters, it doesn't. I expect this and we see it with stoves that are designed to pass the EPA test. The somewhat crappy journalism by ignorant writers makes it sound like there are two programs, one secretly used for testing and then a "switch" to a second retail program.

If the VW programming is just optimized for test passing but still pollutes too much (in somebody's opinion) then it is the EPA that needs to change their test protocol.

If VW really did change the program between test and retail then bad on VW.
I also believe this is what they did.
Shame on the epa if their test protocol doesn't actually simulate real conditions.

Same thing as power generation regulations, they don't care if they cripple or destroy the country as long as their regulations are followed.
 
VW admitted they cheated, how again is this in any way the EPA's fault ? :confused::confused:
 
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In Salt Lake City they are dealing with serious long winter temperature inversions. Instead of going after the main polluters which is soot from cars and trucks, they are trying to stop wood burning. Greater particulate pollution is in part why we have winter burn bans in our county. Increasing this pollution for personal gain is definitely against the law. Not trying to single anyone out. I know several folks that have hacked their diesels, some good friends too. But it seems a bit anti-social, like peeing in the pool. We're all on this tiny marble together and have to breathe the same air.

8c4069b2-5a18-4253-8026-dec9a4ad9303.jpg
 
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Or get one before the new program screws them up. Hard to say what this will do to the used market.

Of course, people have been changing the programming on diesels ever since there was programming on diesels. Heck, they even changed the settings on the fuel pumps when things were all mechanical.

This whole thing might present opportunity for cheap TDI cars after the owners get the cars back with crappy programming but aren't willing to reprogram them.


Question - how easy are they to reprogram?

I dont know anything about diesels, but Im aware that in gas cars some are as easy as ordering a programmer box and plugging it into the OBD port, while others have protections so strong you need a specialist to open up the ECU and physically modify the board before it can be programmed.

The former for example is true of Subaru's - Cobb tuning makes a DIY programmer that for a few hundred and 5 minutes can get you an extra 50whp on one of the turbo models.... Whereas with Honda's if you want to do anything you have to remove the ECU and send it to a specialist like Hondata who charges a grand just to modify the ECU to accept programming. And then you are lucky to get 10-20hp gains at best since Honda factory programs are typically higly optimized and they dont use turbos leaving not much to change.
 
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