Clear cut logging issues

[xman23]

I have an issue that my wood burning brothers might be able to lend some advice.

My large community has about 50 home owners property, and mine that butts up to a 200 acre wooded mountain top. They started logging the 200 acres, So far there following the community property line in back of everyone's house, About 200' wide and 1000 ft long after 1 week. Most everything is down or broken off from trees hitting them. I'll get some pictures tomorrow. The word on the street is they didn't need a permit to do this, and have no rules to follow.

I took a look at the town ordinances, There's a section that outlines clear cut logging more than 2 acre. You need to submit for approval an engineered plan to mitigate soil erosion, ect. This property is the highest point in the area and runs off to everyone. Great I thought, that's exactly the issue I have. Leave a buffer of untouched land and don't silt our lake.

Yesterday I sent the ordnance off to our community manager and board president and CCed the town officials. I asked them to contact the town and get a stop work order until this is resolved. The manager, who I know responded, saying there not clearcutting just select cutting. He works for us, now I pissed. Emails going to everyone, Town, EPA

What do you guy know about this? Are there industry standards for how close to property lines, erosion /soil control, etc?


Question
Hard to believe

 

[Nealm66]

It isnt something that would fly around here. Anything logged is under heavy scrutiny. I can’t remember off the top of my head where the cut off is for a permit but it’s like 5000 bd ft or 1 log truck. There are allowances for trees around a house. You should contact your local dnr. Sounds like those boys should be in deep do so.

 

[Nealm66]

Select cutting around here has rules that require leaving trees that represent the stand. A chunk of ground that size would require environmental impact study

 

[johneh]

Here there has to be a 150 ft. buffer from any structure, roadway, watercourse, or
lake/pond. That's provincial law. Mind you they use a lot more and bigger words
in the statute.

 

[Riteway]

Regulations regarding timber harvesting can vary widely between different states, and even different local jurisdiction. Check out this document...it says that timber operations over 25 acres require an erosion permit in PA. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2GpAiAwPGfHkm20jfb7IRa

 

[peakbagger]

Generally the approach some contractors do is cut first ask questions later. If you have access to legal help, get an immediate court injunction filed if you have a basis which looking at the prior link you do. Generally logging fines are minimal and you cant just plant more trees so the logger or landowner assumes the can have the cash in pocket long before they are told to stop.

I bought a large piece of land a few years ago and the owner wanted to try a cheap approach to protecting the land with a ban on clearcutting. I know someone involved with a land trust that protect land and he and others he pointed me to all indicated that one mans clear cutting is another mans "prescriptive cut" so unless there is clear definition of a "clear cut" versus other type of management it usually comes down to a court interpreting a statute.

BTW the land could be on sale after the cut and your association may want to look into buying it and protecting it so this does not happen in the future.

Note there are also federal stormwater regs that may apply if there are water bodies involved.

 

[kennyp2339]

In my little nook of the world we're having almost the same issue, although the logging is being guided by the actual state DEP. The project is for thinning out certain spots on state forest to reduce the canopy and allow for habitat for small birds and ground animals. The property owners in the area have all gone to the open meetings to oppose the project, but rather then listen to the people, the state went ahead with the forest thinning on schedule.
To me it isnt a big deal, I'll even agree that we are over forested and it should be thinned out some, the sub-contractors have done a pretty good job at cutting in a dirt road for machinery, and they are technically doing select forestry practices, but some area's seem to be cleared more then other area's.
My only grip with this whole state project, which again is on state forest land that had no restrictions for public access is that the DEP will not allow anyone to go onto the 250 acre site and cut up the tree tops that being left to rot on the ground. I wrote a few letters and sent them to a few people that are pretty high on the state contact list, I did get a few reply's stating that they will not let anyone onto the land no matter what, no because of insurance, not because of vehicle's in the woods, but because they don't have enough resources to have someone (state park police) there to make sure that people are only cutting fallen wood, meanwhile in different parks the state offers a seasonal firewood permit, i think its $10.00 a cord and you can get up to 3 cords a year, I've helped friends cut and drag logs from these parks and no one from any authority was ever there, it was a come and go as needed / honor system.

 

[Bad LP]

Logging around here is the normal. Around here that’s not close to a clear cut.
The state Forestry Dept. normally handles permits.

 

[ericm979]

Here they need a county permit but a lot of logging is regulated by the state as well. The county is quick to shut down construction that's being done without a permit especially if it can cause erosion or silting of waterways.

Find out which government agency has jurisdiction and file a complaint.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'm different in as much as I don't heat with chunk wood so other than clearing deadfall and wind damage on my property here (it's a partially wooded farm) it don't impact me but my wife and I also own 56 acres of virgin hardwood forest in Northern Michigan that we use for summer recreation and I get offers from harvesters all the time of which they all get round filed. I've seen what they do first hand and they show no respect for the forest or adjoining land owners. It took hundreds of years for my oaks to grow big and so long as I'm alive, no one will ever harvest them and I suspect no one will after I'm gone because the land is in a family trust. Ownership passes down as generations pass.

Where I stand.

 

[Nealm66]

I'm different in as much as I don't heat with chunk wood so other than clearing deadfall and wind damage on my property here (it's a partially wooded farm) it don't impact me but my wife and I also own 56 acres of virgin hardwood forest in Northern Michigan that we use for summer recreation and I get offers from harvesters all the time of which they all get round filed. I've seen what they do first hand and they show no respect for the forest or adjoining land owners. It took hundreds of years for my oaks to grow big and so long as I'm alive, no one will ever harvest them and I suspect no one will after I'm gone because the land is in a family trust. Ownership passes down as generations pass.

Where I stand.

I think that’s very cool. I lost my first job as a timber faller to the spotted owl, there was a long time where I was looked down at for my occupation. It’s not too bad anymore and I’m not in the industry. They have came a long way around here in forest management. There’s a fine line they have to walk to keep the cost of tree farms profitable enough not to turn the land into houses. It’s hard for most people to fathom a big tree farm. A local one has a sustainable yield of 80 million bd ft a year with a 40 year growth cycle. That’s 200 log trucks a day. This farm is a drop in the bucket really, and the first crops of super trees are starting to emerge. There’s some oak around here and I’ve taken a few down and it makes me cringe when they get sawed into firewood considering how long it takes them to mature

 

[SidecarFlip]

Many of the trees on our land were there well before I was born in 1950 and will be there long after I pass (probably not all that long). I don't have an issue with tree farms and cutting for construction, lumber and pulpwood but I have an issue with cutting mature hardwood so some fat cat can have expensive furniture. Not getting my trees. Not now, not ever. Like I said, I've personally see the devastation wrought by indiscriminate cutting and topping and leaving the mess behind and all the tearing up of the forest by skidders and equipment. Not going to happen on our land. Interestingly the landholder next to me is Ted Nugent's brother and he's of the same vein I am. No timber cutting, leave the forest for enjoyment and the animals. Everything stays pristine.

Besides, it's a great place to hunt undisturbed.

 

[xman23]

Thank you guys, just what I was looking for. I did a walk with a few home owners, up the bluff at the back of there property. Trees have been dropped over the bank leaving the discarded slash on the home owners property. They haven't cut to the property line, but close. It does look like a bombed out war zone, but it's what I expected.

One other concern. At the property line they have been running the skidder, creating a mudded out water filled road, with wheel trenches 2ft deep, filled with water. This road is a 1/2 mile now, and we just started. Are they required to restore this land to original condition? And should it be on the property line?

I have sent off emails to the PA DEP, explaining, what I think are potential environmental issues. I appears in PA, DEP looks into logging issues. My daughter a health dept official who receives all kinds of complaints, says If my email was general bitchin, you won't here back. There form asked for a complete explanation, which I did. We will see if they call next week.

Also remembered our community employs a environmental control guy. I never met him, but asked him for help. It should be more fun than checking if someone painted there house the wrong color.

 

[peakbagger]

There are federal storm water regulations that may apply. General there are best practices for erosion and sedimentation control. Usually silt fences are required and then once the logging is done they have to put in water bars and reseed. If the logger is putting sediment into stream that feed into a water body, its usually a violation of state rules. The hassle these days is regulators are working under Covid and probably have limits on what they are allowed to do. Make their job easy by documenting the issues. Most cell phone cameras take photos that contain geo referencing. If in doubt take lots of pictures preferably with georeferencing. Be aware that you want to be discreet about it as the owner is within their rights to post their property from trespassing. You still can take photos from outside the property. If you have a local drone enthusiast you also are within your rights to take aerial shots.

Make sure you do not confuse the issues, there could be two agencies involved, one to deal with forestry issues and one to deal with environmental issues. Usually the environmental regulators are the ones that act more aggressively as they have federal law behind them, forestry regs are usually state.

The big thing to keep in mind is "ugly" is not against the law. Even proper logging is ugly compared uncut forest. A corn field is ugly after its harvested, trees are a crop like corn, its just that instead of months its decades before it grows back. If you want to prevent ugly, then you need to pony up and buy the land or work out a deal to buy a conservation easement on the land. Depending on the conservation value of the property there may be state or local funding to pay for part of the land or easement.

 

[Beer Belly]

Around here we have a Real Estate agent who is hooked up with a developer, and also on the Zoning Board, so whatever this builder wants to do, the RE agent oversees the sale of the property, helps push it thru Zoning, then gets a commission on selling the homes being built.....it's a win win for them , and a huge loss to the residents who want to preserve their nieghborhoods.

 

[Nealm66]

Around here we have a Real Estate agent who is hooked up with a developer, and also on the Zoning Board, so whatever this builder wants to do, the RE agent oversees the sale of the property, helps push it thru Zoning, then gets a commission on selling the homes being built.....it's a win win for them , and a huge loss to the residents who want to preserve their nieghborhoods.

It was like that around here , there were a couple of guys like that around here. I subbed for them once in a while when things got slow in the high country. I don’t think they get away with as much these days but those kinda things still do happen. I’ve seen huge developments push a swamp over when the average guy can’t touch anything that might have been a swamp 10 thousand years ago.

 

[Nealm66]

There are federal storm water regulations that may apply. General there are best practices for erosion and sedimentation control. Usually silt fences are required and then once the logging is done they have to put in water bars and reseed. If the logger is putting sediment into stream that feed into a water body, its usually a violation of state rules. The hassle these days is regulators are working under Covid and probably have limits on what they are allowed to do. Make their job easy by documenting the issues. Most cell phone cameras take photos that contain geo referencing. If in doubt take lots of pictures preferably with georeferencing. Be aware that you want to be discreet about it as the owner is within their rights to post their property from trespassing. You still can take photos from outside the property. If you have a local drone enthusiast you also are within your rights to take aerial shots.

Make sure you do not confuse the issues, there could be two agencies involved, one to deal with forestry issues and one to deal with environmental issues. Usually the environmental regulators are the ones that act more aggressively as they have federal law behind them, forestry regs are usually state.

The big thing to keep in mind is "ugly" is not against the law. Even proper logging is ugly compared uncut forest. A corn field is ugly after its harvested, trees are a crop like corn, its just that instead of months its decades before it grows back. If you want to prevent ugly, then you need to pony up and buy the land or work out a deal to buy a conservation easement on the land. Depending on the conservation value of the property there may be state or local funding to pay for part of the land or easement.

Definitely have to agree with the fact that logging isn’t pretty. I can’t imagine trying to select cut in a stand of hardwoods. That would make a mess even with a buncher

 

[Grizzerbear]

Most of the logging in my direct vicinity is all done for pulpwood. Try looking at that for the next thirty-forty years. My place borders a 250ish acre lot that was all but clear cut around ten years ago and it is nothing but solid oak brush now. The other side of my place borders around 9000 acres of missouri conservation land. They are a lot more selective with their logging and dont log huge swaths of land at once. As far as I can tell their aren't many regulations on logging here......if so they dont get followed or enforced.

 

[Nealm66]

Oak is rare around here, there’s even a protected species of it that requires a permit to take it down. Spanaway oak if memory serves. It has a really cool greenish color inside. We have a town called oakville where there’s a bunch of it. Not sure if it’s native or not. I cut a couple down for a guy that wanted them down for firewood. He let me take a bit home , it’s heavy and I was able to split almost perfect squares out of it. first and only time I ever burned it.

 

[sweedish]

Clear cutting is sometimes used as part of forestry management, and as far as letting the locals gather the tops, they may be planning to chip those later, and there may be liability concerns on the owners part, doesn’t want every Tom, Dick and Harry flailing around there with their saws.
As long as there is nothing illegal about it or causing you harm, whomever pays the property tax has the right to do as they see fit.

 

[usernametaken]

In some locations, there is a difference between logging and clearing. Logging is less regulated than clearing here and the difference is this. Logging is defined as the removal of trees. Clearing is also removing the stumps after logging. So, breaking the surface of the ground is when more rules kick in. I'm sure it's regional like all other regulations though.

 

[sesmith]

Talk to the owner of that property wind find out what their plan is. What might look like a clear cut to you might be a shelterwooded cut, where they just leave seed trees for the future forest and nothing else. The situation there might be very good forestry, even though it looks like a bomb went off right now. Forestry work usually isn't pretty when it's happening.

In the northeast (we have land in Central NY), we're having issues with invasive plants, emerald ash borer, hemlock wooley adelgid, and a large deer herd that makes forest regeneration next to impossible. Depending on what's in that stand, even a clear cut might be used to give the future forest a chance.

Maybe they are doing bad forestry there, but where we live bad forestry usually means cutting all the good trees and leaving the junk (but it looks green afterwward).

So talk to your neighbor. You might get a lesson in forest management...maybe not.