newbie questions / cook stove / small log cabin

[Max W]

Man, can I relate to your wanting to cook on a wood cookstove. We have had two over the years. Just cooked a fine small roast tonight . You have some space challenges with your plan. But solving those will be easier than the ones living in your tent, I think. One thing that could help is an exercise my wife recommened when were designing and building our second house. I had a plan that looked good on paper, trying to keep things economical. She suggested we make a 3D mock up to scale along with movable cardboard footprints of our furniture, appliances etc. It was an eye opener that saved a lot of grief. (She ended up with most of the good design ideas we used and we found that inches count.) You might try that with something like corigated poster board or cardboard and see how your chosen stove might fit with all else. with a 200 ft2 footprint be sure to account for the log wall thicknesses.

I don’t know enough to recommend a stove but if Waterford were still selling the Stanleys here I would recommend that. Of course finding a stove wiclose clearances will be a big help. The Waterford has close clearances, insulated sides and the doors have liners, throwing a little less heat when standing in front cooking. Don’t know what other stoves might cut back on radiant heat that way but in a small space that could be could be helpful.

Edit: I didn’t catch if your chimney question was answered. I don’t think you will be happy with an outside one. With little roof height to begin with the added elbows will hurt your draft. Go straight up.

 

[Todd]

Drolet - Bistro Wood Burning Cookstove - DB04815

The perfect hybrid between a stove and a cook stove, the Bistro is an appliance that fits perfectly into cottage life. Its high-performance design allows for even cooking in the stainless-steel oven, which sits at an ideal height for easy handling of your dishes. The Bistro is also equipped with...

www.newstarliving.com

maybe something like this would work for you?

 

[YooperMike]

Drolet - Bistro Wood Burning Cookstove - DB04815

The perfect hybrid between a stove and a cook stove, the Bistro is an appliance that fits perfectly into cottage life. Its high-performance design allows for even cooking in the stainless-steel oven, which sits at an ideal height for easy handling of your dishes. The Bistro is also equipped with...

www.newstarliving.com

maybe something like this would work for you?

Thanka for the link. I remember reading negative reviews of that somewhere on the forum. Was looking for other items at Lehman's and noticed they are high on Hearthstone stoves. Not a cookstove, but aside from that seems pretty darn good. Cast iron and soapstone construction, epa stove and some with catalytic, say the burn times are incredibly long even with a meager 1.3cu ft firebox, and priced affordably at 3k more or less. Will have to research reviews here, but that sounds like something that could be partially loaded so I dont heat myself out and turn it to low and get through the night. I woke up at 4am today because the tent was 35, stoked and go it back to 55 in an hour and figured at that point might as well just pour a cup of coffee. -18 outside right now.

 

[Todd]

Thanka for the link. I remember reading negative reviews of that somewhere on the forum. Was looking for other items at Lehman's and noticed they are high on Hearthstone stoves. Not a cookstove, but aside from that seems pretty darn good. Cast iron and soapstone construction, epa stove and some with catalytic, say the burn times are incredibly long even with a meager 1.3cu ft firebox, and priced affordably at 3k more or less. Will have to research reviews here, but that sounds like something that could be partially loaded so I dont heat myself out and turn it to low and get through the night. I woke up at 4am today because the tent was 35, stoked and go it back to 55 in an hour and figured at that point might as well just pour a cup of coffee. -18 outside right now.

-34 here this mornin, it’s been a cold Winter so far many -0 temp, I can’t imagine living in a tent in this! you seem to like the soapstone stoves, personally I prefer the Woodstock’s over the Hearthstones.

 

[YooperMike]

-34 here this mornin, it’s been a cold Winter so far many -0 temp, I can’t imagine living in a tent in this! you seem to like the soapstone stoves, personally I prefer the Woodstock’s over the Hearthstones.

Wow. I know where I am at across the border usually stays warmer than 30 min south and southwest, perhaps due to Lake Superior proximity and also having all the WI lakes separating me from the air that skirts Superior and comes down to WI via MN. Personally I think this winter has been warm. Last year I had a stretch of 8 days out of 10 in Feb where low was -25 to -29. Anyway, not to toot my horn but I think being able to live with all the inconviences in a tent in this climate will make living in a small, insulated, permanent cabin with a better stove feel luxurious. Re: stopstone, not married to the idea, but since heating such a small place with a wood stove is going to pose problems was trying to figure out how best to get lower and longer heat and thermal mass seems the best unless I went with the smallest possible cat burner (but to revisit earlier point, I like very extensive and complex cooking methods). Maybe I am wrong and 1.25" of soapstone won't do much. Hopefully someone can correct me if I am wrong, because I am very ignorant about all this, but a cookstove with lots of thermal mass may keep things warm through the night, and just maybe require me to restart fire in the a.m.. Later today should be nice out, I think +8 or 9. Great for a couple hours xc ski.

 

[Todd]

I’ve owned both Hearthstone and Woodstock stoves and the claims of long hours of heat life after the fire dies is highly exaggerated. It’s more like a couple hours of a Luke warm stove. You can get the same from a 5gl pot of water top of your steel stove. Not saying they are bad stoves, they do heat well and give a good overnight burns.

 

[YooperMike]

I’ve owned both Hearthstone and Woodstock stoves and the claims of long hours of heat life after the fire dies is highly exaggerated. It’s more like a couple hours of a Luke warm stove. You can get the same from a 5gl pot of water top of your steel stove. Not saying they are bad stoves, they do heat well and give a good overnight burns.

I usually keep a stockpot with water on top overnight, helps add a little humidity in the dead of winter too. Just looked at the Woodstock Ideal. Is catalytic and with all the add-ons (soapstone firebox liner and side panels, ashpan, up to 3 top burners (! Solves my problem of needing a space for high heat cooking applications), and heat shield and pipe shield it's still under $3500. It's quite ugly with a very industrial look, but effective heating and cooking is fsr more important. Couple questions: is a cat hard to learn how to use? And it lists btu output of 9k-42k. Does that mean 9k is the lowest possible safe operation engaging the cat? Will such a huge firebox (for my needs) of 3.2cu feet hinder performance if I load it like 1/4 or 1/3 of the way? My well insulated shack would likely overheat at more than 6k btu I imagine, although if adding on then it might be reasonable. As for couple hours of lukewarm afterward, any idea how much that would reduce dropping temps vs say a totally cold stove? Thanks.

 

[Todd]

I usually keep a stockpot with water on top overnight, helps add a little humidity in the dead of winter too. Just looked at the Woodstock Ideal. Is catalytic and with all the add-ons (soapstone firebox liner and side panels, ashpan, up to 3 top burners (! Solves my problem of needing a space for high heat cooking applications), and heat shield and pipe shield it's still under $3500. It's quite ugly with a very industrial look, but effective heating and cooking is fsr more important. Couple questions: is a cat hard to learn how to use? And it lists btu output of 9k-42k. Does that mean 9k is the lowest possible safe operation engaging the cat? Will such a huge firebox (for my needs) of 3.2cu feet hinder performance if I load it like 1/4 or 1/3 of the way? My well insulated shack would likely overheat at more than 6k btu I imagine, although if adding on then it might be reasonable. As for couple hours of lukewarm afterward, any idea how much that would reduce dropping temps vs say a totally cold stove? Thanks.

Cat stoves sometimes get bad rap as hard to learn and operate but it’s just a small learning curve then it’s like riding a bike. Those BTU numbers are from EPA test methods using just about full firebox of either 2x4 crib wood or cordwood, not real world burning. Not sure how it would run at 1/4-1/3 loads. My experience with cat stoves is they work best with 3/4 to full loads and you adjust the heat output with the air control. I don’t think they work well adding a stick of two every few hours or so. It may just clog the cat. The Ideal Steel is a huge stove, personally I wouldn’t go over a 2cu ft fire box stove for your situation. Maybe look at the Absolute Steel I think it’s in the 2cu ft range. The Survival would be the best fit heating wise but probably wouldn’t meet your cooking needs.

 

[YooperMike]

Cat stoves sometimes get bad rap as hard to learn and operate but it’s just a small learning curve then it’s like riding a bike. Those BTU numbers are from EPA test methods using just about full firebox of either 2x4 crib wood or cordwood, not real world burning. Not sure how it would run at 1/4-1/3 loads. My experience with cat stoves is they work best with 3/4 to full loads and you adjust the heat output with the air control. I don’t think they work well adding a stick of two every few hours or so. It may just clog the cat. The Ideal Steel is a huge stove, personally I wouldn’t go over a 2cu ft fire box stove for your situation. Maybe look at the Absolute Steel I think it’s in the 2cu ft range. The Survival would be the best fit heating wise but probably wouldn’t meet your cooking needs.

How hot would the room get turning it to lowest possible setting? Couldn't I just do that and then load it twice a day?

 

[Todd]

How hot would the room get turning it to lowest possible setting? Couldn't I just do that and then load it twice a day?

Hard to say, lots of variables in that question. You only have 200 sq ft so you may have to load a stove full depending on it’s size to be able to have 12 hour burns but how hot will that make your cabin? You may be able to get away with just one firing per day or throw a split or two on every once in awhile for a more even heat over the day. This is something you will have to experiment with and find out when you decide what stove to get. The most controllable stove with the longest burns are the Blaze Kings but I don’t know how they would be for cooking. Maybe look into the BK Sirroco 20?

What if you build up, make it a 2 story or loft to add space? Would that still be considered 200 sq ft permit wise? A small sleeping loft would give you some extra space to fit that cook stove?

 

[YooperMike]

Hard to say, lots of variables in that question. You only have 200 sq ft so you may have to load a stove full depending on it’s size to be able to have 12 hour burns but how hot will that make your cabin? You may be able to get away with just one firing per day or throw a split or two on every once in awhile for a more even heat over the day. This is something you will have to experiment with and find out when you decide what stove to get. The most controllable stove with the longest burns are the Blaze Kings but I don’t know how they would be for cooking. Maybe look into the BK Sirroco 20?

What if you build up, make it a 2 story or loft to add space? Would that still be considered 200 sq ft permit wise? A small sleeping loft would give you some extra space to fit that cook stove?

Thanks for your help. I don't want to build up. After reading a bunch more threads, including one on soapstone vs iron vs steel that you posted in, it seems like soapstone would be ideal for my purpose eh? It won't radiate such high heat, will provide more even heat, longer burn time and keep the firebox hotter so I can achieve adequate temp in firebox with less intense burn, eh? There are a few cookstoves with soapstone, and some with maiolica tiles, that weigh 400 something to 600 something pounds and have fireboxes about 1, 1.5cu ft. If I cracked a window and loaded that up before bed would it make it too hot inside (or too cold by the morning) and would I still have some coals or embers to get it going again? The 6sq ft size of the stove is fine, but they all appear to need larger clearances. Putting up a non combustible material with spacer at the wall, how much would that reduce needed clearance? I don't really leave home for more than 6 hours in winter so knowing my climate it would never go completely out for 3 or 4 months. In warmer temps if it did get cold during the day when I fire it up again at night after the cabin has absorbed heat, and then the soapstone is slowly absorbing seems lke that would be a way to get through thr night in such circumstances. Also, cat seems expensive and less necessary if the soapstone slowly radiates heat, no? Also, with small profile roof it might help to go straight up and use double wall inside, right?

 

[Todd]

Thanks for your help. I don't want to build up. After reading a bunch more threads, including one on soapstone vs iron vs steel that you posted in, it seems like soapstone would be ideal for my purpose eh? It won't radiate such high heat, will provide more even heat, longer burn time and keep the firebox hotter so I can achieve adequate temp in firebox with less intense burn, eh? There are a few cookstoves with soapstone, and some with maiolica tiles, that weigh 400 something to 600 something pounds and have fireboxes about 1, 1.5cu ft. If I cracked a window and loaded that up before bed would it make it too hot inside (or too cold by the morning) and would I still have some coals or embers to get it going again? The 6sq ft size of the stove is fine, but they all appear to need larger clearances. Putting up a non combustible material with spacer at the wall, how much would that reduce needed clearance? I don't really leave home for more than 6 hours in winter so knowing my climate it would never go completely out for 3 or 4 months. In warmer temps if it did get cold during the day when I fire it up again at night after the cabin has absorbed heat, and then the soapstone is slowly absorbing seems lke that would be a way to get through thr night in such circumstances. Also, cat seems expensive and less necessary if the soapstone slowly radiates heat, no? Also, with small profile roof it might help to go straight up and use double wall inside, right?

I don’t have any experience with cook stoves but smallish 1-1.5 fire box would probably give you anywhere from a 3-6 hour burn depending on the design and how hot you burn it. My little Jotul 602 was just under 1cu ft and probably averaged a 4-6 hr burn but many times during milder weather I had enough coals for relight after 8 hours. Your probably right that the overall mass of the stove, logs, tight construction and good insulation should give you a few hours more of heat holding power.

As far as clearances and chimney height you will want to go by your stoves manual recommendations. For a shorter stack and closer clearances yes go double wall.

 

[Max W]

Most cookstoves are built EPA exempt. I bet there are models that are able to be shut down more tightly than regulated stoves. This could mean a slower, longer burn for their firebox size. I think the Waterford Stanley was sold as airtight but ours, bought well used, wasn’t airtight and is even less so now. Also cookstoves generally load north south. I see this allows the stove to be loaded more a bit fully than an E W loading stove with the same cu. ft. firebox. The N /S loading 602 sounds like it gets a good burn considering its small size and EPA conforming design(?)

 

[qwee]

It is fairly easy to follow code. I also wanted to build a house. I spoke to a code person about the 200 sq. foot rule. He said it only applies to non-living structures. So, I just built a 32' x 40' house with a loft - a big small house. It is approximately 1700 ft sq total. I found the code guys to be helpful, mostly. They are concerned with structural stuff and safety. After a while, I found myself asking them questions because this is what they do every work day - inspect structures. They know quite a bit.

If I had it to do over again, I would have built a 2 story 20' x 20' cabin style house (800 ft sq). This design eliminates internal walls (except bathroom), and the roof size is small. The 2nd story would be ringed with a deck. I would have been tempted to window up the south side and install insulated exterior garage doors to open and let the sun in and close to block the cold out. I would have used insulated concrete forms (again). This place would be easy to heat.

I may have to build this cabin some day. And since I know how to build masonry heaters and have most of the stuff to do this already, I would build a small one with passive water coils for making hot water.

 

[Todd]

The N /S loading 602 sounds like it gets a good burn considering its small size and EPA conforming design(?)

Yes, nice little stove, burns front to back what they call a cigar burn. The stated burn time and sq ft heating I would say is pretty accurate for my climate During the colder months. The stainless baffle system seems stout and would be hard to warp unless you really don’t pay attention and constantly overfire. I’ll be installing mine in a 12x12 guest cabin or my 16x16 work shop.

 

[YooperMike]

1700sq ft a "big small house?" This huge dimension residential dwelling is a relatively new thing in human history. Thoreau lived in 10x15, Dick Proenneke I think 11x15. In old world Europe there many times whole families in dwellings half the size of 1700sq ft. Keep in mind the retriever and I live in 14x16 tent and have more than enough space. With a cabin and numerous shelves, plus big south facing windows to open up the place, I am pretty sure that's enough for bed, stove, kitchen area and table with a bench and a chair and my battery bank underneath shelves or bench. The question was how best to heat and cook in 200sq ft using only wood.

 

[qwee]

The question is how not to overheat 200 sq ft while burning wood. Like said, one of those micro stoves where you burn kindling sized wood might be best. Thermal mass to absorb heat would probably be enough to keep the place warm.

Poor insulation and air cracks might be acceptable to keep from overheating. If you have southern solar gain you could probably heat the space that way alone (on sunny days).

I built a 200 sq ft 'place' out of fiberous cement (12" walls) with one medium window facing south. You and your dog's body heat could meet half of the heating needs therein. Maybe get a small woodstove and line the inside with fire brick (shrink firebox) and burn one piece of firewood at a time(?).

 

[Max W]

Looks like your goals for a stove are
1 to be able to cook on a stove that will provide a range of stove top temps and room for multiple pots or pans.
2 To produce or hold enough heat to keep your cabin above fifty on waking.
3 To have a size and close enough clearances to maximize your 200ft of space.
4 To control the heat so as to not be driven out.

A cookstove is pretty much all that will meet #1 unless you build a masonry stove. I was looking at cookstoves that might meet 2 and 3. I do enjoy learning more about stoves especially cookstoves. One that jumped out was the Margin Gem Pac it has the close clearances, 6” to back wall, is air tight, for longer, slower, even all night burns, not great for the chimney and beyond but maybe adaptable to your small space. The firebox seems to be the smallest of the Margins at 1.3 cu ft. To cook something simple without a lot of heat just run a small hot fire and let it die. This AM I went from some pea sized coals to onions beginning to sizzle in 10 minutes with news paper kindling and two small splits. I have to say a very good draft at 2 degrees outside didn’t hurt. Of course then I added more splits to bring the house heat up. Some cookstoves, maybe an Elmira, have or had a summer grate that goes in closer to the stovetop. Could one adapt something like that?

 

[SteveKG]

I spent 11 yr living in an old miner's cabin with a regular-sized old cookstove, place was roughly 400 sq ft. Bit larger than yours, designed as a place for a few miners to sleep between shifts. Insulated but not well, just sawdust in the wall cavities and nothing in the ceiling. I also had a small countertop propane stove with a couple burners for hot-weather cooking. The cookstove did very well for baking all my bread and other baking dishes, and the top would hold four or five pans at a time. It also had a warming cabinet above the stovetop, as many did back when.

I would stuff the firebox full at bed time, then often awaken to frozen water in the dog bowl. There was an old 40s or 50s GE fridge in there and I would keep anything freezeable [potatoes, canned goods] stacked in the fridge or they could freeze. The firebox on the stove was, as pretty typical with the old models, quite small for the stove and the fire would burn out without frequent attention. Of course, the body of the stove would retain heat for hours, but it would not keep the cabin warm til next a.m.

I built a permanent home during those years, couple miles down the road. Given my experience with the old stove, I eventually bought a model with a large firebox. No warming cabinet, but there are two ovens, and one of them does not get hot but...warm.

Even a small, 200 sq ft cabin will be a mansion compared to the tent. By the way, my old, full-sized cookstove kept that old cabin very comfortable when it was operating with no issue of too much heat. I have not had any experience with the newer, small cookstoves though they look great in the ad's.

 

[Max W]

I built a permanent home during those years, couple miles down the road. Given my experience with the old stove, I eventually bought a model with a large firebox. No warming cabinet, but there are two ovens, and one of them does not get hot but...warm.

Steve, that stove looks pretty interesting. What is it?

 

[SteveKG]

Steve, that stove looks pretty interesting. What is it?

It's a Heartland "Artisan," from a British co. that also makes the Aga which you will see in about 10,000 BBC shows, in the background. I don't know the current status of the various Aga models. Some use coal, some oil, some gas, some wood , maybe electricity but don't quote me on that. The basic premise is that many people keep the stove warmed and ready to use around the clock. We don't do that, let it burn out at night and restart next a.m. We bought this one probably fifteen years ago from a stove dealer here on the forum, that co. is now out of business chimneysweeponline.com I believe I read on the forum here that the guy, Tom, retired and closed the business, so it is gone.

 

[YooperMike]

Thank you all for the replies.

The question is how not to overheat 200 sq ft while burning wood...Thermal mass to absorb heat would probably be enough to keep the place warm.

Poor insulation and air cracks might be acceptable to keep from overheating. If you have southern solar gain you could probably heat the space that way alone (on sunny days).

Thermal mass: walls are going to be vertical eastern hemlock logs. Initially I thought 10" but decided 8". As well, given the vertical timbers I could infill spaces of wall however I like, which made me think brick or masonry for a 4ft section of wall behind a stove (which would reduce clearance, right?

Air cracks: can crack a window.

Insulation: I figure if well-insulated and with thermal mass then I could get away with firing a cookstove for breakfast and dinner and then maybe again before bed or once again in middle of night? Especially if it's a cookstove that's heavy with soapstone sides or at least a lot of cast? I was looking at regular 2020 epa non-cook stoves and I think even the smallest would overheat such a place whereas a heavy cookstove that held heat and provided less intense radiant and more even heat might work.

Solar gain: over 50% of south wall will be windows. Clerestory up top, large picture window and two regular windows on either side at eye level. Shutters and drapes in summer on the lower windows.

Looks like your goals for a stove are
1 to be able to cook on a stove that will provide a range of stove top temps and room for multiple pots or pans.
2 To produce or hold enough heat to keep your cabin above fifty on waking.
3 To have a size and close enough clearances to maximize your 200ft of space.
4 To control the heat so as to not be driven out.

A cookstove is pretty much all that will meet #1 unless you build a masonry stove.

I did come up with another idea. Build another shed to have separate kitchen housing a cheap antique cast cook stove and well pump etc., to save space in living cabin. But again run into problem of how to heat that living space--seems like even Jotul 602, Moreso squirrel and Woodstock Survival will overheat it. So 1 and 3 might be solved if I could figure out a space heating stove.

Not terribly worried about 3 except for clearances to the wall. There are small cookstoves that provide ample cooking space at twice the size of a small space heating stove. But if needing 12-18" to the wall is required that takes a lot--so my question about building that wall behind out of brick.

4 can be mititgated by opening a window, but not ideal.

2 is a definite concern. I am tired of waking up in the 40s inside. Insulation and thermal mass should help with that, but how much? In Russia and Northern Europe most homes that heat with wood use masonry stoves. Is the 1.25 or 1.5" of soapstone around iron and steel enough to radiate heat for a few hours, while also tempering the radiant heat early in the burn? I figure if I burned hot to cook, it would then heat up the mass and more or less keep the temp moderate for a longer period. That's what seems ideal to me, but I am fairly ignorant and just thinking about it theoretically. I read some other thread here earlier where some guy was completely opposed to any sort of insulating material in a stove and basically said you don't understand physics if you want iron, soapstone or masonry. Except that's what they have been using in cold northern European climates for a very long time. So beats me. My perspective on all this may be skewed living in a canvas tent when it is -20F outside. Also I may have solved a couple problems--5ft ceilings dont count toward sq footage so a little alcove off to the side of the hut with my bed on the floor means I would have a place to sleep that stayed cooler but if I got up in the night I could be in warmth of main part of hut. Being 5'4" having to duck a few inches to get into bed shouldn't be an issue (I lived in a bunk in a van for 2 years with about 2ft clearance from bed to ceiling...claustrophobic but 3-4ft sounds fine).

 

[YooperMike]

That depends on the stove's design and clearance requirements. How large an area in sq ft is planned for this stove?

What type of cooking is being proposed? Single pan, two pan, oven? Will the building have power? Has propane been considered for cooking?

As large a sq footage as is needed. Just trying to figure out best way to heat and cook. Keep in mind winter here is 6 months more or less--with deep freeze for 4 months where above freezing will only occur a handful or two of days. I cook outside in summer on weber grill or coleman camp stove. But spring and fall would be nice to take the chill off in the morning inside while making coffee.

Multiple pans. Variety of cooking. Some oven but not a ton.

Minimal power. Very small solar setup for lights, fans, laptop, mini fridge, stereo, electric toothbrush, recharging power tool batteries. Don't think I have anything else electric except for a blender and ski iron but I can run the generator when I need those.

Not considering propane.

 

[Mt Bob]

8" wood walls and you will be cold. As said before, don't count on thermal mass, especially warming them from the inside. It works well for thermal when it gets good sun, and no wind.But only down to a certain temperature. False wall it,insulated and all, and heat it with 2 candles.

 

[YooperMike]

8" wood walls and you will be cold. As said before, don't count on thermal mass, especially warming them from the inside. It works well for thermal when it gets good sun, and no wind.But only down to a certain temperature. False wall it,insulated and all, and heat it with 2 candles.

Hahah 2 candles! Also, south wall will be mostly glass, so on a sunny day it shoukd get some heat for a few hours mid day. And the coldest days are most usually clear and sunny. If it's cloudy it stays above 0F. Maybe I really don't need much heat in such a small space. Used to living in canvas, so...my perspective on heat may change when getting insulated flooring. Cold floors can make one feel cold regardless of air temp (currently 0F outside, 67F at the bed kitty corner from stove in the tent, but 39F on the floor)--perhaps of my floor were 60 I would only want it 60 inside. I know when I sleep I like it between 55 and 60 at the bed, but definitely feel cold when I get out of bed. Anyway 70% of heat loss occurs through floor and ceiling though. Both will be well insulated. I could go 10" logs but larger than that I couldn't really move myself (plus a friend, maybe). Plus I like the look of rough hewn timbers. What about thermal mass from soapstone stove?