Corona Virus

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mcdougy

Feeling the Heat
Apr 15, 2014
465
ontario
All these measures are necessary. The scary part is they are many weeks behind. The U.S. has taken the slow approach in comparison for reasons unknown.
 

mcdougy

Feeling the Heat
Apr 15, 2014
465
ontario
Henry Ford Health system has said it will ration access to ventilators based on the health of the patient, and their ability to survive the infection. Those deemed not able to recover will be made "comfortable".
Again not wanting to sound like a broken record or that the sky is falling but....... Conversations about DNR status with your loved ones are responsible right now. 3 levels basically. It's reasonable to talk about if/ how long you are willing to be machine dependant. Given the situation we are all entering, this is a conversation that allows family to know your wishes and theirs. Having to make a decision of taking someone off of machinery while not necessarily knowing their own words /wishes is horrible.
 
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Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
Again not wanting to sound like a broken record or that the sky is falling but....... Conversations about DNR status with your loved ones are responsible right now. 3 levels basically. It's reasonable to talk about if/ how long you are willing to be machine dependant. Given the situation we are all entering, this is a conversation that allows family to know your wishes and theirs. Having to make a decision of taking someone off of machinery while not necessarily knowing their own words /wishes is horrible.
I agree with having an advanced directive, it's a very smart thing to have. What's scary in this scenario from Henry Ford is a group of Dr's make the call, not you or your family. If you are deemed too unhealthy to survive, you will not get a ventilator, just medicine, I assume Morphine or something of that sort to make you comfortable.
 

Medic21

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2017
1,033
Northern Indiana
I agree with having an advanced directive, it's a very smart thing to have. What's scary in this scenario from Henry Ford is a group of Dr's make the call, not you or your family. If you are deemed too unhealthy to survive, you will not get a ventilator, just medicine, I assume Morphine or something of that sort to make you comfortable.
This is a last resort for triaging. It’s not a decision or situation we take lightly in the medical field. It also not you make and sleep well at night. Trust me I’ve had to do it in the field.

If we allow two to die by caring for a lost cause while someone else dies from lesser injuries we failed all.
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
This is a last resort for triaging. It’s not a decision or situation we take lightly in the medical field. It also not you make and sleep well at night. Trust me I’ve had to do it in the field.

If we allow two to die by caring for a lost cause while someone else dies from lesser injuries we failed all.
Yes, that is what they are saying, that this is a last resort, but it may come to this. I think it may help people stay home and heed the quarantine order our governor put in place. Up until now, people have been largely ignoring it.
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
Who was that nutty broad that mentioned "death panels";lol
This is not the same as a death panel, it doesn't matter if you have top of the line insurance or medicaid, this is simple math, we only have so may ventilators to go around. One Dr. figured out a way to hook one ventilator to two patients at once.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
5,494
Northern NH
Henry Ford Health system has said it will ration access to ventilators based on the health of the patient, and their ability to survive the infection. Those deemed not able to recover will be made "comfortable".
Your reference is missing a lot of context. Its a contingency plan for what is hoped never happens. One the key tenet of disaster planning is look at every possibility in advance, make a rational plan in advance and hope it never happens. The short form is "fail to plan, plan to fail".
If someone wants the background on this, this link is going to supply background. https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/03/27/henry-ford-health-letter-spread-on-social-media-part-of-absolute-worst-case-scenario-policy-not-active/

Its real easy to get caught up in the hype, if you just want to attract attention to yourself then keep on getting sucked in, on the other hand its not that hard to do your homework and actually contribute useful information to this thread.
 
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Grizzerbear

Minister of Fire
Feb 12, 2019
637
SW Missoura
Your reference is missing a lot of context. Its a contingency plan for what is hoped never happens. One the key tenet of disaster planning is look at every possibility in advance, make a rational plan in advance and hope it never happens. The short form is "fail to plan, plan to fail".
If someone wants the background on this, this link is going to supply background. https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/03/27/henry-ford-health-letter-spread-on-social-media-part-of-absolute-worst-case-scenario-policy-not-active/

Its real easy to get caught up in the hype, if you just want to attract attention to yourself then keep on getting sucked in, on the other hand its not that hard to do your homework and actually contribute useful information to this thread.
Agreed.

 

mcdougy

Feeling the Heat
Apr 15, 2014
465
ontario
Yes, medicine and machinery can be a rabbit hole people enter unknowingly at times. I agree that there isn't a doctor on the planet that takes anything like this wilfully. Your hearing about a worst case scenario. Unfortunately it could truly happen in these times. Again what do you think your loved ones decision would reasonably be? Often the answer is obvious....me....I'm full resucitation, machinery for a 4 week maximum. My 75 year old dad with late stage Parkinson's disease, catheter, wheelchair and living in a nursing home he is basic resucitation with machinery for a week. Very basic conversation but brutal at the bedside. In November we were unprepared when my father was hospitalized and asked about feeding tubes. My dad was concious but delusional so the doctors made us answer the questions......talk about a moral gut ripping horrible position to be in ...even when the answer was somewhat obvious. He thankfully recovered and no feeding tube went in. Doing well (for him) at his nursing home today.
But even recalling the situation makes me want to puke.
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
Your reference is missing a lot of context. Its a contingency plan for what is hoped never happens. One the key tenet of disaster planning is look at every possibility in advance, make a rational plan in advance and hope it never happens. The short form is "fail to plan, plan to fail".
If someone wants the background on this, this link is going to supply background. https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/03/27/henry-ford-health-letter-spread-on-social-media-part-of-absolute-worst-case-scenario-policy-not-active/

Its real easy to get caught up in the hype, if you just want to attract attention to yourself then keep on getting sucked in, on the other hand its not that hard to do your homework and actually contribute useful information to this thread.
Why would I use something like this to draw attention to myself? What purpose would that serve? This was part of an internal document that was leaked. In retrospect, I should have just included the link. I'm not sure how things are where you live, but in the heavily populated greater Detroit area, they are spreading quickly.
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
Yes, medicine and machinery can be a rabbit hole people enter unknowingly at times. I agree that there isn't a doctor on the planet that takes anything like this wilfully. Your hearing about a worst case scenario. Unfortunately it could truly happen in these times. Again what do you think your loved ones decision would reasonably be? Often the answer is obvious....me....I'm full resucitation, machinery for a 4 week maximum. My 75 year old dad with late stage Parkinson's disease, catheter, wheelchair and living in a nursing home he is basic resucitation with machinery for a week. Very basic conversation but brutal at the bedside. In November we were unprepared when my father was hospitalized and asked about feeding tubes. My dad was concious but delusional so the doctors made us answer the questions......talk about a moral gut ripping horrible position to be in ...even when the answer was somewhat obvious. He thankfully recovered and no feeding tube went in. Doing well (for him) at his nursing home today.
But even recalling the situation makes me want to puke.
I hope I'm never put in that situation.
 

CaptSpiff

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2014
508
Long Island, NY
Medic21 was responding to a comment on the "leaked contingency plans of the Henry Ford Health System":
This is a last resort for triaging. It’s not a decision or situation we take lightly in the medical field. It also not you make and sleep well at night. Trust me I’ve had to do it in the field. Medic21
You are not understating that one bit!
I was a Volunteer Fire Fighter and responded to more car wrecks than I can recall. Two that stay with me were very bad multi-car scenes where only one ambulance responded. The Chief had to make the decision on who got to ride back and who had to wait. I saw the pain on his face and was glad those decisions weren't on me.
 

Medic21

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2017
1,033
Northern Indiana
Medic21 was responding to a comment on the "leaked contingency plans of the Henry Ford Health System":


You are not understating that one bit!
I was a Volunteer Fire Fighter and responded to more car wrecks than I can recall. Two that stay with me were very bad multi-car scenes where only one ambulance responded. The Chief had to make the decision on who got to ride back and who had to wait. I saw the pain on his face and was glad those decisions weren't on me.
are you saying I don’t understand it?

move made the decision in combat of who got treated and who didn’t based in available supplies and personnel. Letting two Marines die that could have lived based on have a second medi vac and not just me. But could have is not a luxury in combat when two will if treated.

I’ve also had to leave people lay in a median to treat ones that were “salvageable” vs those that were alive yet with “injuries incomparable with life”.

So yes, I understand it. Still have the privilege of reliving those from time to time.

The leaked plans are the ugly truth of this situation now gets out of hand. It sucks and I hope it does not come to it.
 

kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
5,121
07462
are you saying I don’t understand it?

move made the decision in combat of who got treated and who didn’t based in available supplies and personnel. Letting two Marines die that could have lived based on have a second medi vac and not just me. But could have is not a luxury in combat when two will if treated.

I’ve also had to leave people lay in a median to treat ones that were “salvageable” vs those that were alive yet with “injuries incomparable with life”.

So yes, I understand it. Still have the privilege of reliving those from time to time.

The leaked plans are the ugly truth of this situation now gets out of hand. It sucks and I hope it does not come to it.
You are spot on!! I was alluding to this yesterday without saying it, unfortunately places like NYC are going to be the sacrificial lambs as far as aide, like the full compliment of ventilators, but the lesson learned in NYC will be great for places like Denver, Houston, Dallas ect...
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
are you saying I don’t understand it?

move made the decision in combat of who got treated and who didn’t based in available supplies and personnel. Letting two Marines die that could have lived based on have a second medi vac and not just me. But could have is not a luxury in combat when two will if treated.

I’ve also had to leave people lay in a median to treat ones that were “salvageable” vs those that were alive yet with “injuries incomparable with life”.

So yes, I understand it. Still have the privilege of reliving those from time to time.

The leaked plans are the ugly truth of this situation now gets out of hand. It sucks and I hope it does not come to it.
I'm not sure who he was referring to either. I thought it was me??
 

CaptSpiff

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2014
508
Long Island, NY
are you saying I don’t understand it?
I'm envisioning you channeling Joe Pesci in Goodfellas.

You are not understating that one bit!
My statement (above) focused on the depth and truth of what you said, and then reinforced it with a similar experience of my own; except mine was once removed. Feel free to re-read the post. And keep doing what you're doing, you are the true Tip of the Spear.;ex
 
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CaptSpiff

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2014
508
Long Island, NY
I have a friend in NYC (Manhattan) who lives in a pretty posh apartment building with a doorman. In chatting with the doorman she learned almost half the building is now empty, most having "gotten outta town". People of means have options.
I know it's rude to quote one's own post, but now it's getting serious out there:
Rhode Island's Governor directs State Police to pull over NY drivers?!?
In my best German accent: YOUR PAPERS PLEASE ?_g

 

AlbergSteve

Minister of Fire
Dec 11, 2017
840
n
You are spot on!! I was alluding to this yesterday without saying it, unfortunately places like NYC are going to be the sacrificial lambs as far as aide, like the full compliment of ventilators, but the lesson learned in NYC will be great for places like Denver, Houston, Dallas ect...
Sorry Kenny, there will be many more sacrificial lambs.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,189
South Puget Sound, WA
I am deeply worried for the u.s.a.
I have family living there. The severity is much greater than the people have been led to believe.
It's not just the severity. It is the unpreparedness that is concerning. This is compounded by those lowlifes that seek to mine this horrible situation to their own benefit.

Henry Ford Health system has said it will ration access to ventilators based on the health of the patient, and their ability to survive the infection. Those deemed not able to recover will be made "comfortable".
Death squads made real. Another reason to have a national health care system.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,189
South Puget Sound, WA
All these measures are necessary. The scary part is they are many weeks behind. The U.S. has taken the slow approach in comparison for reasons unknown.
The reasons are known. CDC budgets cut. CDC pandemic response team cut. Advance CDC epidemiologist in China, cut. Stock piles of masks, ventilators, cut. Just in time supply chains sound good when one wants to maximize efficiency and profit, but that model doesn't fit for health care. The lesson being learned is that we need to take healthcare as seriously as national defense (which has lots of stockpiles of things it will never use).
 

Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
15,715
Philadelphia
I have a friend in NYC (Manhattan) who lives in a pretty posh apartment building with a doorman. In chatting with the doorman she learned almost half the building is now empty, most having "gotten outta town". People of means have options. Probably second homes in your bedroom communities. !!!
This is likely one of the primary vectors for spreading the disease to new areas, over the last week. When you look at the estimated infection rates for NYC, there’s no doubt some of those people fleeing NYC into the surrounding states of NJ, PA, and CT have carried the virus with them.
Henry Ford Health system has said it will ration access to ventilators based on the health of the patient, and their ability to survive the infection. Those deemed not able to recover will be made "comfortable".
Hopefully it doesn’t come to this. Begreen actually posted the proper response to this post a week ago, but here’s a more simplified graphic demonstrating the same point:

36AADB96-E1E7-467C-9846-9BF1AEDD4D5E.jpeg

Note the area under the curve, or the total number of people infected, is the same. Social distancing is aimed at limiting the rate of the spread to a threshold below which our hospitals can handle the critical cases, not the total count of people who get this thing. However, due to seasonal factors and continued research on possible treatments, delaying the spread will likely also decrease the number of critical cases ending in death.
Rhode Island's Governor directs State Police to pull over NY drivers?!?
In my best German accent: YOUR PAPERS PLEASE ?_g
Good! I wish PA were doing the same. People are supposed to stay put, not carry this thing around the country with them.
Sorry Kenny, there will be many more sacrificial lambs.
There are too many variables to say there “will” be anything.
Reading comprehension folks. Spiff said understating, not understanding.
Lol... was wondering if someone was going to catch that. Still, the misunderstanding generated an interesting response.
 

mcdougy

Feeling the Heat
Apr 15, 2014
465
ontario
You’re absolutely blinded and insane if you think the government could take complete control and run healthcare.
I would think it can be done as many/most countries do it currently. It's under funded is the case in general. Here in our city (10th biggest in the country) it's not a matter of space, the hospital has lots of room, it's a matter of staff and equipment. I completely understand the magnitude of the problems of where the reasonable line is set, but this is approaching shameful that all countries don't have supplies ready and waiting for high volume situations. I'm hoping that won't ever happen again.
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
I’m waiting for the government to deploy the combat support hospital. That would be a quick way to add to our healthcare industry with the active duty military personnel and have the level two trauma center capabilities. They can handle the majority of the day today for larger cities to allow them to focus their facilities on COVID-19
The Military is stationing the Hospital ship Mercy off the port of LA, and the Hospital ship Comfort off the coast of New York. Trump also said he was ordering the Army Corps of Engineers to build make shift ICU's.
 
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