Couple Questions for the seasoned vets

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usefulidi0t

New Member
Feb 18, 2024
13
Kansas
House is 1344 sq foot. The kitchen/dining and living room are pretty much next to each other with 2 doorways in the living room leading out to the kitchen/dining area. Total square footage between the 2 there is about 600. Basically just one big area separated by a wall with a door on either side to get to the living room. Then there is a hall way which leads to the bedrooms and a bathroom. I do not plan on putting up any fans to move the heat around.

The Outfitter I is good for 700-1400 sq ft
The Outfitter II is good for 1300-2300 sq ft

Which would should I go with?

Now with the 30% tax credit, how exactly does that work? Say I paid 4,000 in taxes and got a tax credit worth 1,200 would that be reflected as an overpayment of 1,200 bucks therefore getting a 1,200 refund? Example B) I paid 1,000 in taxes, I would only get a 1,000 refund of that 1,200. Is that how this works?

Thank you,
Mark
 
Welcome to the forum!
Buy the bigger output stove. The reason is that
you can turn down a bigger BTU stove on warm
days but you can not get more BTU out of a small
stove when on very cold days it is maxed out
As to the tax, I can't say anything because I am in Canada!!!
 
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The tax credit is non refundable. If you tax bill is less than the credit you do not get the difference payed out to you.

How is your insulation? How it being hated now? What was your December and January consumption. How many tons is your AC. All aspects help size the appliance.
 
The tax credit is non refundable. If you tax bill is less than the credit you do not get the difference payed out to you.

How is your insulation? How it being hated now? What was your December and January consumption. How many tons is your AC. All aspects help size the appliance.
insulation is alright. Windows are original to the 1964 construction. December and January consumption 9 ccf and 14 ccf respectively @ ~70F. Unsure of size.
 
I got 2 estimates today. Both are from reputable dealers.

One came in at 4,100 installed without hearth pad
Another came in at 6,400 installed with hearth pad.
There is a huge disparity in vent/labor costs between both dealers.

I honestly feel the second estimate was taking advantage of me getting a tax credit. It also isn't as itemized which was also suspect.

Anyways, where should I buy my hearth mat/stove board from? Any reputable online places that are fair in price?

Which estimate sounds more inline for horizontal venting out the side of the house?
 
Which stove did they offer? Outfiiter sorry not familiar with
 
I agree that you should buy the bigger stove for the same reason given.

Looks like the Outfitter II is a Quadra-Fire, which I have no experience with. Here is a review by someone who installed one within the last couple of years (scroll down a little).

If you are not planning on using fans (which is an iffy proposition anyway), the siting of the stove can be critical in getting the heat into different areas. In teh below schematic, I used to have a corner install stove that was aimed at the dead corner in the living room (because that is how it fit) and getting heat out of that room was not easy - and required fans. Since I got the P43, I was able to aim it straight down the hall and I don't use any fans to keep the rooms at reasonable temps.

Main Floor Layout P43 air flow schematic.jpg
 
I think you are making the right decision on the larger unit. As for the credit I copied it an put below. I also referenced the old name of the credit and I added the part also as the new one doesn't seem to mention biomass products as eligible. But at the bottom it looks as if there is a $2000 per year cap on a new biomass stove or boiler as well as some heat pump units.

How It Works​


The Residential Clean Energy Credit equals 30% of the costs of new, qualified clean energy property for your home installed anytime from 2022 through 2032. The credit percentage rate phases down to 26 percent for property placed in service in 2033 and 22 percent for property placed in service in 2034. You may be able to take the credit if you made energy saving improvements to your home located in the United States.


The credit is nonrefundable, so the credit amount you receive can't exceed the amount you owe in tax. You can carry forward any excess unused credit, though, and apply it to reduce the tax you owe in future years. Do not include interest paid including loan origination fees.


The credit has no annual or lifetime dollar limit except for credit limits for fuel cell property. You can claim the annual credit every year that you install eligible property until the credit begins to phase out in 2033.

Referenced in the above.

What’s New​


Residential clean energy credit.
The residential clean energy credit added a credit for qualified battery storage technology. Battery storage technology costs are allowed for the residential clean energy credit for expenses paid after December 31, 2022. See Qualified battery storage technology costs, later, for details.
Biomass fuel property costs are no longer allowed for the Residential Clean Energy Credit for property placed in service after December 31, 2022.

Energy efficient home improvement credit.
The energy efficient home improvement credit is now divided into two sections to differentiate between qualified energy efficiency improvements and residential energy property expenditures.
For the energy efficient home improvement credit, the lifetime limitation has been replaced by an annual credit limit. A 30% credit, up to a maximum of $1,200, may be allowed for:

  • Insulation material or air sealing material or systems,

  • Exterior doors,

  • Windows and skylights,

  • Central air conditioners,

  • Natural gas, propane or oil water heaters,

  • Natural gas, propane or oil furnaces or hot water boilers,

  • Improvements or replacement of panelboards, subpanelboards, branch circuits or feeders, and

  • Home energy audits.
The limits for each category of these items that qualify for a credit is discussed later in Section A—Qualified Energy Efficiency Improvements.


Heat pumps and heat pump water heaters, biomass stoves and biomass boilers have a separate annual credit limit of $2,000 with no lifetime limitation, which replaces the prior lifetime limitation of $500.
 
Let me ask this, are you handy? It isn't rocket science on installing a pellet stove but you will want to be informed on doing it properly and also make sure your home insurance is OK with it.

This will open up your options of stoves and hearth pads (you can make your own). I have heard that Lowes has the pellet stove I installed on clearance for $550 at some locations, an amazing deal.

I installed mine: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/master-forge-h30xl.202479/
 
I also installed my stove removed a zero-clearance fireplace rebuilt the hearth
and installed the stove. Not hard just follow the installation guide/instructions
that come with the stove

DSCF1044.JPG
 
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Good decision on going with the larger unit.

The tax credit stinks for people with lower income who don't pay enough income taxes to claim the credit or the full credit. It's punishing the people who need it the most.
 
I also installed my stove removed a zero-clearance fireplace rebuilt the hearth
and installed the stove. Not hard just follow the installation guide/instructions
that come with the stove

View attachment 324935
I can be, but for the sake of insurance and liability I would feel much more comfortable shifting blame on a professional. I am teetering between a pellet stove now and the Millenium 1200 wood burning stove. I just don't want them to go through my attic w wood stove, I am just questioning the cost of installing through wall and then up through eaves and if it will be significantly more going that route vs a straight shot up the roof. I am in a single story ranch on a slab.
 
Trust me, I grew up on a farm and had to cut wood as a kid…when we got a pellet stove, Harman Pellet Pro II, mine and my brothers lives changed for the better….pellet stoves are more…way more freeing!
 
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Trust me, I grew up on a farm and had to cut wood as a kid…when we got a pellet stove, Harman Pellet Pro II, mine and my brothers lives changed for the better….pellet stoves are more…way more freeing!
Well I live within the city limits. Rarely have power outages and if we do I am typically up pretty fast (right by the hospital). I don't think we've had an outage last more than 8 hours. Plus I am only gonna get older. I do enough heavy lifting at work I don't wanna come home and do that too. Also, turning it on and chilling and forgetting about it (other than cleaning it out evey week) seems more suiting for my tastes.
 
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I think you are making the right decision on the larger unit. As for the credit I copied it an put below. I also referenced the old name of the credit and I added the part also as the new one doesn't seem to mention biomass products as eligible. But at the bottom it looks as if there is a $2000 per year cap on a new biomass stove or boiler as well as some heat pump units.

How It Works​


The Residential Clean Energy Credit equals 30% of the costs of new, qualified clean energy property for your home installed anytime from 2022 through 2032. The credit percentage rate phases down to 26 percent for property placed in service in 2033 and 22 percent for property placed in service in 2034. You may be able to take the credit if you made energy saving improvements to your home located in the United States.


The credit is nonrefundable, so the credit amount you receive can't exceed the amount you owe in tax. You can carry forward any excess unused credit, though, and apply it to reduce the tax you owe in future years. Do not include interest paid including loan origination fees.


The credit has no annual or lifetime dollar limit except for credit limits for fuel cell property. You can claim the annual credit every year that you install eligible property until the credit begins to phase out in 2033.

Referenced in the above.

What’s New​


Residential clean energy credit.
The residential clean energy credit added a credit for qualified battery storage technology. Battery storage technology costs are allowed for the residential clean energy credit for expenses paid after December 31, 2022. See Qualified battery storage technology costs, later, for details.
Biomass fuel property costs are no longer allowed for the Residential Clean Energy Credit for property placed in service after December 31, 2022.

Energy efficient home improvement credit.
The energy efficient home improvement credit is now divided into two sections to differentiate between qualified energy efficiency improvements and residential energy property expenditures.
For the energy efficient home improvement credit, the lifetime limitation has been replaced by an annual credit limit. A 30% credit, up to a maximum of $1,200, may be allowed for:

  • Insulation material or air sealing material or systems,

  • Exterior doors,

  • Windows and skylights,

  • Central air conditioners,

  • Natural gas, propane or oil water heaters,

  • Natural gas, propane or oil furnaces or hot water boilers,

  • Improvements or replacement of panelboards, subpanelboards, branch circuits or feeders, and

  • Home energy audits.
The limits for each category of these items that qualify for a credit is discussed later in Section A—Qualified Energy Efficiency Improvements.


Heat pumps and heat pump water heaters, biomass stoves and biomass boilers have a separate annual credit limit of $2,000 with no lifetime limitation, which replaces the prior lifetime limitation of $500.
From Form 5695 instructions
1708500983401.png

But, biomass stoves were just moved to a different section
1708501206906.png
 
Good decision on going with the larger unit.

The tax credit stinks for people with lower income who don't pay enough income taxes to claim the credit or the full credit. It's punishing the people who need it the most.

The part of the credit not being taken can be rolled over to the next year.

There are a lot of Fed and State programs out there that help lower income people with energy efficiency projects as well as appliances in the form of rebates - money they get back nearly immediately versus waiting until taxes are filed. They also qualify for fuel assistance, food assistance, rent assistance (or property tax rebates) etc. I know people who get more back than they paid because of different refunds and credits (other than the non-refundable credits).

Not saying lower income people have a great time (I've been there, and been homeless), but there is a lot of help out there for them.
 
The part of the credit not being taken can be rolled over to the next year.

There are a lot of Fed and State programs out there that help lower income people with energy efficiency projects as well as appliances in the form of rebates - money they get back nearly immediately versus waiting until taxes are filed. They also qualify for fuel assistance, food assistance, rent assistance (or property tax rebates) etc. I know people who get more back than they paid because of different refunds and credits (other than the non-refundable credits).

Not saying lower income people have a great time (I've been there, and been homeless), but there is a lot of help out there for them.
might look into that!
 
They also qualify for fuel assistance, food assistance, rent assistance (or property tax rebates) etc. I know people who get more back than they paid because of different refunds and credits (other than the non-refundable credits).

Everything you say is true but I know people who fall in between getting tax credits and getting things for free. They don't have enough income to pay taxes so they can get a credit but they make just enough where they don't qualify for the other things that you mention.
 
I think I might go wood? I really am not sure. It sure seems like other then dragging wood in and keeping the fire going seems to be the really only drawback. I run central air mainly, and will continue to do so however, I like it for the ambience it provides.

I just think in an emergency case I can at least have heat for days, light, a means to cook, a way to humidfy the air, etc etc.

Also side thought - what if pellets become obsolete? Then what do I burn? I have a 8,000 dollar paperweight.
 
Welp…I offered what I could and gave what I’ve been through…hope you win either way…
 
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I think I might go wood? I really am not sure. It sure seems like other then dragging wood in and keeping the fire going seems to be the really only drawback. I run central air mainly, and will continue to do so however, I like it for the ambience it provides.

I just think in an emergency case I can at least have heat for days, light, a means to cook, a way to humidfy the air, etc etc.

Also side thought - what if pellets become obsolete? Then what do I burn? I have a 8,000 dollar paperweight.

Pretty sure that pellets won't go obsolete - they've been around for decades.

Wood stoves are great during power outages. I had a wood stove in my previous place. When I moved here 10 years ago there were a couple of issues with burning wood that made my decision. Note, that I am close to the center of town so power outages are not as big a concern as when I lived out in the woods. And, I was looking for something to heat with full time since the boiler runs off propane and that stuff is very expensive where I live. Here is the list of things I thought about:

  • Place to store cords of wood - my 1/3 acre has lots of wet areas. I was not going to store wood in my under house garage because of vermin and bugs. I can store pellets in my garage without those worries.
  • Mice love to nest in stacks of wood - the rodent odor when I brought in wood was irritating. Being next to a swampy area, I was also concerned about attracting wood rats.
  • Bugs winter over in wood and wake up when they warm up (just love ants, stink bugs, etc roaming the house in winter - until the cats got ahold of them)
  • Lots of detritus from wood to clean up all the way from the entry door to the log holder
  • Burn time of wood stoves - wouldn't keep my place warm the entire 13-15 hours I was away for work each day.
  • Temperature control - pellet stoves can automatically turn themselves on and off at set temps so the place doesn't overheat (more a concern in a small place probably)
  • Installing a chimney would have been challenging, versus being able to basically direct vent the pellet stove.

But, just because a pellet stove met my needs better than a wood stove, doesn't mean anything to your situation.
 
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Also side thought - what if pellets become obsolete? Then what do I burn? I have a 8,000 dollar paperweight.

If you pay $8k for a pellet stove you are an idiot ;lol

You need to worry more about pellet pricing than it going obsolete.

If you are doing this part time then weigh all factors. Most don't understand all the work a wood stove requires, then come back crying the blues about it being expensive for buying "seasoned" wood and having chimney fires.