Dare I Do the Install Myself? Need "How To" Guide....

[TruePatriot]

Hey, All!

(This is long--the first part is trivia for the interested--if not, please skip down to "My Question" so as to avoid frustration. Thanks.)

I'm back from upstate, where my "simple plan" was to do a little work on the upstate house, pick up my new Englander 30-NC from Lowes, at 50% off, or $449.50 :lol: and come home. Then, on the second day of my arrival upstate, the water heater failed. By the very next day, having researched and purchased a water heater and brought it home from Home Depot, I was ready to get busy. HOWEVER, the very next day, the clutch failed in my old F-150. There's no garage at this property, but there was snow, and cold. :-S The hydraulic actuator of the clutch was actually what failed, and it could have been either the master or slave cylinder. Definitely, it was not one of Ford's "better ideas" to put a CONCENTRIC slave cylinder INSIDE the clutch housing--this requires one to PULL THE TRANSMISSION to change a $60. slave cylinder! Happily, I gambled and got lucky, changing the master cylinder (did I mention I was outside? Bicycling in the snow for the parts and groceries?) and finding that this cured the problem. Had it not, I was looking at a $500. bill ($700. if replacing the clutch).

Ironically, the very next time I attempted to use the bicycle I'd just built up, and brought with me, for this house--the shifter broke! I'm glad it held on until the truck was repaired!

Then I replaced the water heater, the city water valve, and two other bad gate valves (the only good gate valve is one replaced with a ball valve, IMO ;-P ), and sweated at least 20 copper unions, couplings, etc... Incredibly, nothing leaked!

SO...I'm (finally) home, and happy to report that the stove just fit through the front door. However, in the many iterations of this 1890's farmhouse, I just happened to notice that some individual(s) have CUT the first two floor joists running parallel to the wall where the stove is going, and toe-nailed them into some other hash job of floor joists, so there's effectively no real support for the stove--I've got to shore up the floor joists with some LVL "beams" and jack posts before the stove can be sited. Unbelievably, the area in question contains not just the water heater in this house, but ALL of the sewer pipes for both bathrooms, chimney cleanouts, much of the hot and cold water plumbing, and the nat. gas boiler for the entire, two-zone, baseboard heating system, and much of it's attendant runs. Plus a fair amount of electrical and cable wiring, too. Into this mess, I've got to site four jackposts, under the severed floor joists, as surely "toe-nails" are not enough to hold up the 500 lb. woodstove, woodpile, and the admirers who will no doubt want to sit around the stove. No fun, but no biggie--just wish I'd noticed this problem and fixed it a year ago--LOL.

MY QUESTION:

To be clear: I'm not asking "how to" (not yet, at least :red: ); rather, I'm just asking if there are any "how to" guides, extant, that I could be pointed to?

Specifically, is there a stem-to-stern "how to" guide to installing a wood stove into an existing, external chimney? I'm ignorant about cutting into an existing, ceramic-lined, brick chimney (two flues, one dedicated to the fireplace the stove will be sited in front of) and installing a liner kit, cap, THIMBLE, etc....?

I will take and attach pictures this week, but basically, it's a modern, two-flue, external, brick chimney with cermic tiles lining it, probably built in the 1960's or '70's, with a brick fireplace inside that will need a hearth built in front of it. In front of this fireplace is the only site that "works" for us. The gas boiler is directly underneath, in the cellar.

I've never cut into brick--I've set tapcons into the mortar between bricks, but never cut into brick, ceramic flue liners, etc.... I would like to find some guidance on how to:
a) accurately drill into the flue, initially, to site the cut in the middle of the ceramic flue tile

b) ditto on the outside, to locate a clean out door on the outside wall of the chimney, the better to connect the liner to the "T" that will go into the thimble, to connect the stove to, and also to do nonmessy cleanouts of the flue liner, in future.

c) install the liner.

d) select, install and seal the proper chimney cap.

I have the excellent hearth "wiki" instructions on making a block off plate, and I will shortly get a sweep out to inspect the chimney, but since being given a non-onsite quote of $1,400 in LABOR (plus flue liner kit, etc...) to install this stove (not including any hearth or pad of any kind, nor the floor joist shore-up) I'm motivated to "try this at home."

I just met a guy who will rent me a Genie TZ-34 high lift boom trailer, at a discount, for a day. I'm thinking if I had the inner and outer flue holes cut, I could drop the liner down and connect it to the "T" and mount the chimney cap all in a day--does that seem reasonable? (Btw, allegedly, these lifts go for $200./day).

I should add that, if I had not found the Genie lift, I would never have considered doing more than the blockoff plate myself, as the pitch of the roof is too severe to stand on, and it's an old, high farmhouse, which is beyond my limited "roof-comfort-zone." But I've run hydraulic cranes and boom lifts before, and am quite comfortable with such equipment.

I've attempted to attach a random pic of one of these lifts, which go to 40', despite the "34" nomenclature.

I'm just totally inexperienced in drilling (or do you use a hole saw of some type?) brick, ceramic tile, etc...and am very concerned on how to accurately site the holes, and don't know what equipment I'd need to rent, to cut these holes. So I wonder if anyone had done a "wiki" on this, or knew of a book, or other resource materials?

Thanks,

Peter

 

[webbie]

To be clear - where is the pipe going to enter the room - is this going to be installed back in the fireplace? Or in front and have the pipe go up and then cut into the brick and masonry?

Does the pipe go through any combustible wall(s)?

Sounds like you are going to reline the entire chimney with stainless, correct?

Maybe a line drawing/sketch of what you intend to do would help.

A hammer drill or small demo-hammer (you can rent - or even buy one fairly cheap at Harbor Freight) is probably the best tool for cutting into masonry in general, but I will await more details before I make suggestions.

 

[fossil]

The house we moved into was built 30 years ago, and had a "conversation pit" sunken into the living room floor, with a conventional masonry fireplace partially below the main floor level. We decided to do away with the pit entirely, seal off the old fireplace, build a nice hearth in front of it, and put a wood stove there. I had originally envisioned running the stovepipe up out of the woodstove, as high as I could toward the cathedral ceiling, and then punching through with a thimble and using the old existing masonry chimney from there on out, probably with a liner. Well, I was talked out of that plan by a number of real smart people, and for a number of real good reasons. Expense, complexity, and two 90* bends in the stovepipe were among the reasons. What we ended up doing was simply running a single wall vertical stovepipe in the room all the way up as far as we could until we had to jog it with a couple of 45*'s to avoid a rafter, and right out through the roof using an approved box and class A pipe to a nice stack and cap.

Result: We have a stainless steel stovepipe extending up from the roof right next to the old (now "decommissioned") masonry chimney. Works for us...keeps most all of the single wall pipe in the room all the way up to the box attached to the ceiling (more heat in the room), and who cares how many chimneys stick up from the roof anyway? We didn't do any boring, drilling, chipping, chiseling through masonry or tile, and didn't install a thimble with its attendant total 180* change in flow direction, nor did we have to install any flue liner or anything else. And we probably have just a bit more money in our pockets today for having done it this way. I can send pics if you want (and if I can figure out how to attach them). Best, Rick

 

[eernest4]

fossel's idea is excellent if you don't have a second &third;floor to contend with, as well as an atic floor & roof. I don't know if you do or don't.
But if you have a second & third floor, you "MIGHT be" better off going thru the chimney.

I am sure there are books at your local library that deal with the subject in detail & you can probably search something up on the internet with www.ask.com or www.ehow.com
or www.google.com

At some point in time I may be needing some similar info as my chimney is red firebrick with a clay liner & i may need to find out how to cut thru the clay liner without cracking or otherwise damaging it. I know it is extreemly brittle & subject to crack from a easy blow, so it seems it would hsve to be sawed or drilled.

Is there such a thing as a clay saw or a clay drill. I could imagine burning out 6 or more sawzall blades making a 6 inch hole in the clay liner & breaking thru the firebrick without damaging the clay chimney liner beneath it won't be at all easy or in the least forgiving of mistakes or slip ups.

Of course , I would be willing to do it myself, but not without knowing the right way to do it, before I started the job.

I hope someone else here, has the knowledge, or knows where the specific knowledge is,
better than my advise of a google search.

I am courious myself to find out, because I may decide to do something similar this summer.

 

[TruePatriot]

Craig,

Hey there! Before I begin, I just want to say that my girlfriend and I really enjoyed your podcast detailing your purchase of the Upland Stove Co. Growing up near Greene, NY, I found it very interesting. I applaud your entrepreneurial spirit and business acumen—okay, I envy you those skills, too! LOL And since I have all three floors of the house “wired,” we were able to enjoy your story as we puttered around—it was like having a friend over to tell an interesting story—keep ’em coming!

Okay. Thank you for your quick response, and you are 100% correct--I apologize for not being clearer—the stove will be sited in front of the existing, brick fireplace, and the stove pipe will go up and make a “90” into the sheet rock wall (which will be removed for the appropriate thimble), and through the brick chimney-wall, and into flue. Then, via a “T,” it will make another “90” into the stainless steel liner, and up and out.

And correct again—we will reline the entire chimney with a flexible, stainless liner.

I don’t have a scanner to upload a sketch with (nor the skechin’ skills) but I will post pics this week. It’s a pretty standard, brick fireplace from the 1960’s or ’70’s, IMO. The hearth is tiny, so I will need to do some sort of hearth pad, but I’m not even gonna worry about that yet.

My friend cut into an existing flue in his house, through an 8” poured-concrete, steel-reinforced wall, and he said it sucked, and took 8 hours. But I'm guessing brick won’t be as bad as reinforced concrete, right? He said he was unable to rent a hammer drill that “anchored” to the wall itself, but he claims that professional plumbers have hammer drills that do anchor to the masonry, using “Tapcons” into the mortar between the bricks/blocks, and I will try to rent one of those.

Craig, I’m hoping you might be able to point me to a thread here, if nothing else, where someone has documented, step-by-step (ideally, photographically) the tapping into of an existing flue, as I need to do. If there is no thread you or others can direct me to on hearth, and no book or published guide on the net, I will post questions as they come up, keeping it short, with photos, to keep it as simple as possible. I was just raising these issues here, to identify the types of resources I was looking for.

Basically, I’m fairly familiar with a variety of tools, as I weld, and do bodywork and auto mechanics, etc…. So I’m not too worried about performing the specific cutting operations, even though I’ve never run a hammer drill. I’m more concerned with the fact that I don’t know the theory behind the siting of the holes to be cut. I think I can cut the holes, but feel I need guidance as to the best place to site the holes.

Basically, I don’t want to spend the next twenty years being told I should have put the thimble higher/lower on the wall, or the cleanout higher/lower on the chimney, etc…, by someone who’s actually experienced in such installations. :grrr: So I’d like to tap such expertise now, possibly via a book or a thread right here on your excellent hearth.com.

Also, while I realize I can drill a small pilot hole into the chimney, and (hopefully) check via a periscope, up the flue, to see if I’ve hit the center of the flue, I’d still welcome any “tricks of the trade” people use to precisely site the cuts into the flue. (I’m building a periscope as soon as I source the mirrors—the roof is too steep to stand on and I’m no fan of heights--hence the boom lift).

Specifically, I’m really feeling the need for some theory as to:

a) How close to the ceiling should the stove pipe enter the wall, over the mantel piece, all things being equal? I understand the need to maintain proper clearances from combustibles, but I’m wondering if it’s better to be closer to the ceiling, using double-wall, or lower down, using single wall? Put another way, what’s more important—to scavenge heat into the room using single wall pipe, or keep more heat in the stack, using double wall, to prevent creosote from forming in the upper reaches of the flue, as the exhaust cools?

And I realize the answer to that question depends (in part?) on the height of our exterior chimney, strength of draft, etc…, but what OTHER factors might be involved, when chosing how close to the first floor ceiling to enter the flue? FYI, our chimney is about 28’ high, give or take a foot. However, we will be entering the flue some 6-8’ above ground level, giving an effective stack ht. of approx. 20’.

b) Similarly, I need some instruction regarding the ideal height of the cleanout access door to be cut into the outside of the chimney, in relation to the height of the thimble inside the house. I’m told the cleanout door should be somewhat below the height of the thimble into the house, so that the creosote can fall into the actual “cleanout” on the bottom of the “T.” Are there any std. guidelines available on siting such a cleanout door?

c) I’m a little concerned that a hole on each side of the chimney (smoke on inside/cleanout on outside) could weaken the chimney, but it’s in excellent condition, and almost 6’ wide at the base. I’m assuming a 10” square cleanout door hole won’t weaken the chimney, given that brick is, by it’s nature, a “latice-type” construction, and can sustain such penetrations and maintain its integrity?

d) I need some theory on liner selection and installation. I’m concerned about how difficult it may be to connect the liner to the “T”, and I’m hoping that process will be aided by the addition of a cleanout door on the outside of the chimney.

e) How heavy is a 20+ feet of liner? The boom lift is only rated for 500 lbs, and I weigh about 165, plus tools.


I’m out of character-count, so I will answer the other responders in another post, later this evening, but thank you all!

Peter

 

[TruePatriot]

Rick,

Hey there. Thanks for your input. I too was favoring a separate flue, inside the house, as this is best, as you ultimately decided upon. However, the problems with this for us are several, and ultimately, we decided against a separate flue. Our 1890’s house was heavily remodeled right before we got it, and almost doubled in size, due to “bump outs” around much of the first floor. This resulted in a house with a second story that is much smaller than the first story.

This is important because there is no centally-located position which “works,” traffic-wise, for the stove, while still keeping the stack in the smaller, (original) footprint of the house, to enable us to go straight up through the second floor, attic, and out.

So why not locate it further out from the center of the house, in one of the "bump outs"? Well, aside from the increased difficulty in heating the entire first floor from a non-central "wing," under the “10/2” rule, we have to get the exhaust 2' higher than anything within 10' of the stack. This would require major flue bracing to secure the stack, for a long run up past the second floor, and attic, if we exited the first floor and ran up alongside the second story, to get high enough to have the chimney cap 2’ above anythying within 10’ of the stack (per the 10/2 rule). It also creates additional expense for all of that double wall pipe and ultimately, I just didn’t feel confident that the wind wouldn’t tear the stack off the house, and possibly cause a fire, perhaps while we're sleeping/not home. The entire house was resided in vinyl before we purchased it, and it’s anybody’s guess as to what is strong enough to lag into, for stove pipe braces.

Plus, the location in front of the fireplace is the best, in terms of being centally located, yet out of our traffic patterns. It’s near the stair case for the second floor, yet in a part of the house we largely don’t sit around in—we walk by the fireplace, but don't use the space, and this location would throw the heat toward the majority of our “open plan” house, if sited right in front of the fireplace. Obviously, we'll spend more time in this location, once the stove is there, but for now, it's largely unused space, and all the other locations place the stove in the way of traffic.

So, for all those reasons, we’ve decided to tap into the existing flue. (And money-wise, running double-wall from the first floor all the way up would cost even more than the liner, IMO, not to mention labor, bracing, etc....). But, yes, if the house were configured differently, we would have loved to due what you did, and keep a dedicated stack inside the house! It’s also great that you were able to anchor your stack to the existing chimney—I would feel much better about that arrangement, than some short lagbolts into questionable, 110 year old sheathing/clapboard/studs or whatever IS under our vinyl siding.

I hear ya that it would be ideal to avoid 180 degrees in turns, but we’re hoping that with a liner (admittedly, at some expense) we will have sufficient draft, despite the turns.

In our next house, I will endeavor to go the route you chose, as I feel it’s better, all things being equal. Nothing about our house is remotely normal, however. Some might find it charming, and truthfully, the “open plan” will be ideal for wood heat, so I guess we do have some benefits to offset this house’s challenges, in terms of wood heat. Honestly, it's a pretty cool house, but it cries out for a wood stove! (It was the original farmhouse for the apple orchard that used to be here, before it was turned into a development in the 1960's. I have not yet figured out where the original chimney was, but perhaps it was replaced by the modern-looking one we have now? I don't know--I'm much more comfortable wrenching on a car doing this home-improvement stuff--LOL)

Thanks for your input!

Eernest,

You’re a good guesser—sorry I didn’t include more info, so you didn’t have to guess, but you are correct—we have a 2nd floor and attic. I agree, Rick/fossil’s idea is ideal, if you can swing it. Given our quirky, unusual yet kinda cool house, the “inside stack” isn’t the choice, for us.

Thank you for the urls to the self-help sites—I will check them out!

Re: the delicacy of the clay liner, my friend with the rented hammer drill believes he cracked the clay tile, in the end. I opined that I thought one could turn off the “hammer” function of a hammer drill, and just "drill," (holesaw, sans hammer-effect) at the end, once he reached the liner. He paused, and said…”Oh yeah…maybe I could have.”

I was thinking I could finish the hole cutting, into a clay liner, using a Dremel and masonry disc, instead of the hammer drill. My friend thought that perhaps there are “Sawzall” blades designed to cut masonry—are there? Either way, I’m hoping if I’m careful, I can avoid cracking the clay tile myself—knock on wood three times.

Actually, I’m not even sure I have clay tile now. While it looks like we do, up at the top, what little I can see up through the fireplace damper is all brick—and it’s HUGE—I’d say the flue, at the base, is 2-3 FEET wide inside—sheesh!

I’m building a periscope out of some large downspout, as soon as the g.f. sources some small, cheap mirrors. I don’t want to be drilling any pilot holes until I can see where I’m coming out, into the flue, first, you know? And the “setback” of the flue, from the face (lintel?) of the fireplace, is over 2’, so I can’t see any sky when I look up the flue—hence the need for the periscope.

So you and I BOTH need some direction on cutting into flues, re: methods, tools, etc…. Clearly, I’d like a hammer drill I can “anchor” to the chimney, as opposed to holding it up for hours. Let’s collaborate on this, and hopefully others will jump in with some masonry and hole-siting tips.

Thanks,

Peter

 

[webbie]

Not sure if there is an exact thread dealing with this, but I will dig around.

The particular installations that you are looking to do should be relatively easy! That is the good news. You should link up to the NFPA online guide - NFPA 211, and look at some of the stuff that addresses this.

For starters, consider the article on Hearth.com on passing through a wall:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/passing_a_chimney

Since the most important part of this install is the wall pass through, let me give some basic advice.....

1. Ideally, you can break into the top portion of the smoke chamber, before the first flue tile. This way you will not have to worry about shattering that clay tile, although that does not matter as much since you are lining the chimney. Hopefully, this will put your pipe 18" or more below the room interior ceiling.

2. It might be a good idea to put a 8" ID wall crock in the wall and then pass the horizontal part of the your pipe through that, wrapped with 1" of ceramic wood insulation. You could also use a 7" ID crock and wrap the ss pipe with 1/2" wool, which might be easier to find. This will allow movement and expansion/contraction. You also have the choice of the UL listed wall pass though devices listed in the article, or just use a masonry "wall patch" as shown.

3. In terms of cleanout, you have two choices:
a. Use an elbo or capped T at the bottom and clean by removing the interior pipe and reaching in through the wall pass.
b. Use a tee and extend some ss pipe down through the fireplace damper and a block off

Personally, I would opt for the first one, making certain I set up the interior pipe to be easy to remove.

4. A hammer drill or small demo hammer is still the tool of choice, but you want to take a close look at the exact masonry construction before busting it out. If it is made of small bricks, it might be best to mark the circle, and remove ONE brick from the center of the area by drilling a bunch of holes through it and carefully busting it out using star chisel, etc. - then you can work around from there removing mostly whole or 1/2 bricks. A bunch of holes drilled around the outside of the circle will usually be the best way to make sure your pounding does not spread cracks further back. Also, you can always patch things back up - the good thing about masonry!

As to the stovepipe an mantel clearances - the mantel is simply combustible construction, so you will have to either protect it, use double wall interior pipe or stay a certain distance out. Use your manual for these clearances.

All in all, a messy and perhaps time consuming job, but not too hard. Always remember that a big job is just a bunch of little jobs strung together!

 

[fossil]

Peter - Yes, we were fortunate in that we could do the install the way we did without having to go through any attic or second-story space with the stovepipe/chimney. I'll try to attach a couple of pics of before & after. We had a big old timber mantle which was an obvious problem clearance-wise, so we just ripped it out and had the brick mason who sealed the old fireplace and built the new hearth make us a brick mantle. We're really pleased with how it turned out. If I were in your situation, I think I'd do just as you're planning...which was actually my original plan as well. Our house configuration lent itself to this simpler installation. Best of luck to you, Rick