do i have to use the lower heat shield on my woodstock palladian?

[bum357]

i just picked up my (new to me) palladian stove yesterday. i was reading the manuel and it stated that you must use the lower heat shield. the stove will be in a room that has ceramic tile over a poured concrete slab. there is nothing combustable under the stove. can i get away without using the shield? i just do not see it serving a purpose in this application. thanks
steve

 

[JimWalshin845]

Well if you want to fry the morning's breakfast on your tile I guess there is no harm in burning the stove without the heat shield.

I guess when they said "MUST" they were just pulling your leg.

 

[Webwidow]

In your application you're fine without the bottom shield, assuming you use no combustible materials to set the tiles (glue).

 

[Todd]

I also have no worries about combustibles and asked Woodstock about the bottom heat shield. They said the stoves were tested with the shield so they state it as a requirement in the manual. Also said it would be better to reflect the radiant heat away from the hearth than have the hearth soak it all up. I've tried both ways and ended up keeping the shield on.

 

[JimWalshin845]

In your application you're fine without the bottom shield, assuming you use no combustible materials to set the tiles (glue).

Grrr... Webwidow... you forgot to tell him to also wear asbestos soled shoes. Hopefully there aren't any small children in this home?????

Edit/Addit... burning a solid fuel EPA stove not in compliance is against the law and subject to fines and then we have the insurance issue?

 

[Webwidow]

Hey there Jersey, I stand by my original answer that it is safe. If a non combustible sealant (cement mortar, thin set?) was used what's going to burn? The cement slab turn to molted lava? Of course it's simple to add the the four bolts and attach the bottom heat shield. The plus side Jim will sleep better tonight. :coolsmile: Happy holidays and stay warm.

In your application you're fine without the bottom shield, assuming you use no combustible materials to set the tiles (glue).

Grrr... Webwidow... you forgot to tell him to also wear asbestos soled shoes. Hopefully there aren't any small children in this home?????

Edit/Addit... burning a solid fuel EPA stove not in compliance is against the law and subject to fines and then we have the insurance issue?

 

[bum357]

the tile would be set with thinset, so it would not be combustable. what a company states in there literature to CYA and what works is not always the same. that is why i asked just to make sure i was not missing something.

 

[webbie]

Hey Bum,

Just FYI, if a stove was made in the garage or picked up as an antique, then most folks (pros, inspectors, etc.) would follow NFPA 211 standards for "generic" stoves. A cement slab certainly passes these requirements with flying colors!

See enclosed - 12.5.1.1.3

After that part of the code, it goes on to show how the same "generic" stoves can be placed on combustible floors with proper protection.

As to the other items....

1. If the stove has reasonable legs and firebrick or soapstone on the bottom (or a nice bed of ash), it id doubtful that the hearth will get really hot - but, yes, in theory heat radiated through the slab does you no good.

My guess would be that in your case, this represents a 2% net gain to the room from using a shield.

2. Neither thin set nor ceramic tile are rated for extreme temps, but in general the worse case is a failure (eventual) of the tile or cement. Interesting that this whole deal (ceramic tile heat ratings) has not been addressed (that I know of) in any of the stove manuals or even the code guidelines. Then again, since there seems to be few problems related to it, there is probably not reason to address it!

 

[JimWalshin845]

author="Webwidow" date="1198537391"]Hey there Jersey, I stand by my original answer that it is safe. If a non combustible sealant (cement mortar, thin set?) was used what's going to burn? The cement slab turn to molted lava? Of course it's simple to add the the four bolts and attach the bottom heat shield. The plus side Jim will sleep better tonight. :coolsmile: Happy holidays and stay warm.

OK.... what you can't see may harm you!

Our dragon didn't have a bottom heat shield, the tiles under the stove started to pop and the hearth was not in compliance (we are second owners of the home). So when we redid the hearth this is what we found when we pried up the 1/2" of mineral board. The white underlayment (now scorched) is 5/8-3/4" burn rated rigid board (thank God).. just imagine if it was just plywood.

Safe burns!

 

[jpl1nh]

And why wouldn't you use the heat shield if you have it?

 

[webbie]

(my guess) They bought the stove used.......and it did not have the shield......

Easy enough to make or order from Woodstock.

Again, a slab on earth is certainly a lot different than a frame floor. On a frame or combustible floor there is no doubt that a BHS would be good in most all cases. But on a garage, shop, basement slab or dirt/gravel (as per NFPA) there is nothing to "protect" from.

Jim, is that plywood on the sub floor? So all they had was the one layer of 5/8" and tile? Mineral board (as you found out) is not a good base for tiles (too soft)......

As I remember, the Defiant and most VC's required a bottom heat shield (optional, amazingly enough) over anything but slab over earth.

 

[Gooserider]

FWIW, the Encore Cat manual specifies that the shield is required over anything but solid masonry over earth, and Web remembers correctly that the shield is optional (and not cheap either :long: ) However the manual is very explicit about where the shield is required and where it isn't...

BTW my Encore Cat, with the shield, will still get the brick hearth that it's sitting on, and the flagstone hearth extension, which sticks out well beyond the (new) code required 18" and is down a 4" brick thickness, quite warm - to the point where standing on the hearth or extension in bare feet is hot, though not uncomfortably so.

Gooserider

 

[JimWalshin845]

(my guess) They bought the stove used.......and it did not have the shield......

Easy enough to make or order from Woodstock.

Again, a slab on earth is certainly a lot different than a frame floor. On a frame or combustible floor there is no doubt that a BHS would be good in most all cases. But on a garage, shop, basement slab or dirt/gravel (as per NFPA) there is nothing to "protect" from.

Jim, is that plywood on the sub floor? So all they had was the one layer of 5/8" and tile? Mineral board (as you found out) is not a good base for tiles (too soft)......

As I remember, the Defiant and most VC's required a bottom heat shield (optional, amazingly enough) over anything but slab over earth.

I got a real kick reading others saying it was OK to burn Bum357 stove without knowing if there were children or pets in the home or if there were any combustibles at the end of the hearth pad? Heating appliances are not toys and ARE dangerous! Nothing like telling a new stove owner you can cut corners and the install instructions are crapolla!

Bum357 stated, "i was reading the manuel and it stated that you must use the lower heat shield". I imagine that word "MUST" should have been "SOMETIMES" or "IF CONVENIENT". Of course we all know that when Bum357 gets his inspection the Inspector will just overlook it and if the house ever burns down because the heat shield wasn't installed the insurance company will just let it pass. :coolhmm:

Of course Bum357 is going to tell them that the people on Hearth.com said it was just fine to not use the shield and everything will be OK. :roll: I believe a lot of people think the Instruction Manual as just a piece of paper to be used in their first burn.

As per the Defiant, the heat shields were optional and not a requirement as per the installation instructions. We were running a very dangerous situation and we knew it needed to be corrected.

The stove was here when we purchased the home. The 2 boards standing vertical are probably 1/4" asbestos, very rigid, like you would see on exterior asbestos siding. The exposed sub-floor is a rigid fireproof soundboard used for commercial purposes. There is 3/4" plywood sub-floor under that. The guy who lived here prior was a commercial builder and built the home.

We really didn't know how hot it got under the stove until we started having problems with the tile under the stove. The grout had turned to dust and the tiles were delaminating from the backer board. It got so hot that you could not place your hand on the tile under the stove without getting seriously burned. In front of the stove also had some extreme temps (radiant heat we imagine) which we didn't really notice since we are side loaders.

I realize that Bum357 stove is on non-combustibles, but hearth temps can get extreme as we experienced. Craig, imagine a toddler wondering near the stove?

I built a simple heat shield and would never burn without it! I did some temp readings after cranking up the stove and directly under the stove it was 110dgs and just past the stove's lip it was 123 degrees. Still hot enough to burn a child's feet with the new heat shield installed.

Off my firebox,
Jim

 

[jpl1nh]

I run a Woodstock Keystone, a virtually identical stove to the Palladian, 24/7 in my home. I do have the bottom heat shield on. Jim, you speak strongly to the importance of homeowners following the manufactures advice, always a wise recommendation. Unlike Goose's Encore, my Keystone softly warms the hearth and the floor in front of the glass. With the soapstone, the area surrounding the stove is not at all hot, just pleasantly warm, the type of warmth that makes you want to lie down and take a nap. I do not for one moment disagree with your extremely prudent advice that the manufacture states specific operating instructions for good reason. I only wish to point out that a Woodstock soapstone stove does not generate the more extreme temperatures that a steel or cast stove does. My pets would have to press their noses to the stove to get burned. The other day, I moved my dog's tail off the lip of the front of the stove because it bothered me! It wasn't bothering him hh:

 

[begreen]

I just went through the Palladian manual. Bum357 can you point out the page that dictates the bottom shield is required? I couldn't find it, but may have missed this. The Palladian has a bottom ashpan which in itself acts as at least a partial heat shield. The hearth requirements are very low, so I suspect that with tile on cement slab it would be super safe. But give Woodstock a call today and ask what they say for your installation.

As to radiant heat in front of the stove, a bottom shield will not do anything to reduce this, but it shouldn't be cause for concern.

 

[jpl1nh]

As to radiant heat in front of the stove, a bottom shield will not do anything to reduce this, but it shouldn’t be cause for concern.

Nor is the radiant heat from the front of this stove extreme by any means!

 

[Webwidow]

I built a simple heat shield and would never burn without it!

Was your bottom heat shield tested by a certified test lab and up to specific code as recommended in the VC manual for your unit?

 

[JimWalshin845]

I built a simple heat shield and would never burn without it!

Was your bottom heat shield tested by a certified test lab and up to specific code as recommended in the VC manual for your unit?

No it wasn't and in no place in my manual does it state:"that you must use the lower heat shield" as it does in Bum357's manual. Also, instead of going minimum as per per hearth extension we constructed ours 24" out from the stove instead of the 18" required.

As per suggested to me directly by Craig, who you/we know very well, a simple shield would suffice and I trusted his recommendations. Also, as stated, I did some tests to be sure the hearth temps did not get anywhere near the temps experienced before.

Safety is paramount and I would never suggest to anyone, as you did, that they go against installation or operational methods described in the appliance's manual.

 

[JimWalshin845]

author="BeGreen" date="1198704398"]IAs to radiant heat in front of the stove, a bottom shield will not do anything to reduce this, but it shouldn't be cause for concern.

BeGreen,

I guess I really didn't explain it properly, the hearth pad's radiant heat through conductivity under the stove really had no place to go except out and around the stove.

Now, with the added heat from the front of the stove, the hearth pad in front of the stove was very hot to the touch. With the simple heat shield installed it has dramatically lowered the temps on the pad in front of the stove also.

Sorry about the mix up here.

 

[Todd]

I don't see where it states in the Palladian manual that "you must install the bottom heat shield". However, it does state that in the Fireview manual and I think it's because of the short legs and no ash pan on the Fireview. I would just call Woodstock and ask them what they recommend.

 

[JimWalshin845]

I don't see where it states in the Palladian manual that "you must install the bottom heat shield". However, it does state that in the Fireview manual and I think it's because of the short legs and no ash pan on the Fireview. I would just call Woodstock and ask them what they recommend.

Well it appears that Bum357's stove is not a current (new) stove. My VC Defiant is a 1979 build and later Defiant models incorporated a ash pan and then the bottom heat shields became mandatory.

 

[webbie]

Again, there is such thing as common sense - and also the NFPA code - which is fairly clear about the types of protection required. It's not that one view is right or wrong - it's always easy to say "ask the maker and do whatever they say". But that is not always the question being asked or the whole story.

Knowing the Palladian (a friend and my sister both have one), I can assure Jim it is no Defiant and keeping the kids out of the house because they are gonna burn their feet in not something to be concerned with. If kids are that close, you are worried about other things - like touching the stove directly or placing some newspaper next to it!

I know where Jim is coming from with a Defiant...there are very few stoves with that size of a firebox and that amount of thin radiant bottom! But, again, NFPA clearly addresses stoves based on leg height. They specify many options.

We can analyze a question forever, but in my opinion installing a stove with full height legs on a non-combustible floor as specified in NFPA 211 should not cause any problems. In this case, the tile and thin set are the weak link in the chain as explained in another post. But given the temps reported by other users, I suspect that will not even be an issue.