We bought a house back in March with an Alaska Kodiak Stove insert. Over the weekend, we pulled the insert out since it's been sporadically smoking with what appeared to be a down draft. The insert was installed in a heatilator fireplace and the stove had a damper on the hearth surround in addition to having a baffle inside the box. This stove was not connected to any flue pipe (scary!) there was just a flat piece of steel as the damper and wide open space above it to the heatilator damper and we believe the old heatilator damper rusted out and fell into the "closed" position. After reading some of the information on this forum, I have one question. Am I correct in assuming that a fireplace insert is not supposed to have a damper? We are going to reline the entire chimney and install a block off plate and want to make sure that this "fix" is done correctly. It's just strange to think that something with a fire in it wouldn't have a damper.
Do stove inserts need a damper?
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Welcome Ziggysun.
What's your location? Also, if you're going to spend the money on a liner, how about a new stove to boot? Now would be a good time to do it while everything was out of the way. Tell us a little more about your situation. Pictures always help too if you have a camera available.
-Kevin
What's your location? Also, if you're going to spend the money on a liner, how about a new stove to boot? Now would be a good time to do it while everything was out of the way. Tell us a little more about your situation. Pictures always help too if you have a camera available.
-Kevin
Hi Wrenchmonster and thank you for the welcome!
This house is a vacation home that we use on the weekends and my husband uses it as a hunting camp during hunting seasons; archery, rifle and muzzleloader. It is located in Sullivan County, Pennsylvania.
There really is nothing wrong with the insert/stove itself, other than it's old and probably not as efficient as the new models, but it is a secondary heat source. Prior to our smoke problem the stove was kicking off so much heat that some people were sweating in the room. Our primary heat source is an oil hot water furnace with copper convector baseboard with a summer/winter hookup for hot water. Due to the heater producing our hot water and having the oil hot water furnace as the primary heat source and in light of the fact that this is a vacation property and not our main home I really don't have the extra money for a new insert/stove at this point in addition to the money for the relining and block off plate, especially since there is nothing wrong with the insert/stove itself. We will be doing this work ourselves and my husband has some chimney knowledge, he works in the plumbing and heating field and is a registered master plumber. Unfortunately he knows more about regular fireplaces and wood stoves, not the inserts specifically. We're hoping to use the current insert/stove for a few more years before replacing it.
Since the stove/insert is old and I was not the owner of the property when it was installed I have no installation instructions or documentation. The company is still in existence, but since the insert is discontinued they do not have any information they are willing to share. After searching around at different installation procedures for "today's" insert/stoves everything looks like a direct connection, at least as high up as a block off plate and the previous damper and no damper is used.
I'll try to post a picture later today. I have some of the stove, but they're on a different computer than the one I'm on right now.
This house is a vacation home that we use on the weekends and my husband uses it as a hunting camp during hunting seasons; archery, rifle and muzzleloader. It is located in Sullivan County, Pennsylvania.
There really is nothing wrong with the insert/stove itself, other than it's old and probably not as efficient as the new models, but it is a secondary heat source. Prior to our smoke problem the stove was kicking off so much heat that some people were sweating in the room. Our primary heat source is an oil hot water furnace with copper convector baseboard with a summer/winter hookup for hot water. Due to the heater producing our hot water and having the oil hot water furnace as the primary heat source and in light of the fact that this is a vacation property and not our main home I really don't have the extra money for a new insert/stove at this point in addition to the money for the relining and block off plate, especially since there is nothing wrong with the insert/stove itself. We will be doing this work ourselves and my husband has some chimney knowledge, he works in the plumbing and heating field and is a registered master plumber. Unfortunately he knows more about regular fireplaces and wood stoves, not the inserts specifically. We're hoping to use the current insert/stove for a few more years before replacing it.
Since the stove/insert is old and I was not the owner of the property when it was installed I have no installation instructions or documentation. The company is still in existence, but since the insert is discontinued they do not have any information they are willing to share. After searching around at different installation procedures for "today's" insert/stoves everything looks like a direct connection, at least as high up as a block off plate and the previous damper and no damper is used.
I'll try to post a picture later today. I have some of the stove, but they're on a different computer than the one I'm on right now.
Had trouble locating this thread after you changed the title!
In any case, yes, post as many pictures as you have. Show us a picture of where you suspect the downdraft issue. Inside, outside, inside the chimney, etc. Pictures, pictures, pictures. Measurements help too, good precise measurements.
Before discounting the idea of a new stove lets consider a few other things. First, let's consider your safety. Let's take a look at your set up, your current stove, and future plans. From there the forum can help you to make the best decision possible. Be patient, work with us, and you'll end up with the best options from some industry experts (not me). Lots of experienced people on the forum. My advice for the time being is not to rush into any decision at this point.
-Kevin
In any case, yes, post as many pictures as you have. Show us a picture of where you suspect the downdraft issue. Inside, outside, inside the chimney, etc. Pictures, pictures, pictures. Measurements help too, good precise measurements.
Before discounting the idea of a new stove lets consider a few other things. First, let's consider your safety. Let's take a look at your set up, your current stove, and future plans. From there the forum can help you to make the best decision possible. Be patient, work with us, and you'll end up with the best options from some industry experts (not me). Lots of experienced people on the forum. My advice for the time being is not to rush into any decision at this point.
-Kevin
Hi Kevin. Sorry about changing the title. I thought my question had more to do with whether inserts need a damper than which insert I had and thought more "experts" would respond if it was an insert/damper question vs. the type of insert.
My question wasn't really about our smoking or down draft issue. It was whether dampers were necessary on fireplace inserts since all the information I can find eliminates dampers or maybe they're now built-in to the insert itself?
Anyway, there is no doubt about what our smoking/down draft issue was. Don't really need help there....the heatilator damper was never removed prior to the insert installation and the hinges and handle rusted out which CLOSED the damper with no way to open it since there was NOW an insert blocking access to said damper. When you can reach up and pull the damper with it's handle down in your hand, there's definitely some rusting out happening! This was not OUR installation and the insert was probably installed sometime in the late 70's or early 80's, we just purchased the house in March 2006.
As for the insert, it is an Alaska Kodiak Stove, I have no idea when it was made? or if there is a certain model number? there isn't one on the insert itself. I don't have much information on it other than the following: it's lined with fire bricks (which I assume to be a given), there is a baffle inside, it has a glass door and ash pan. There are air flow intake knobs on the front and sides and in the front of the ash pan in addition to below and above the stove within the box surrounding the stove.
Replacing the insert with a new one is not an option at this time, but making sure the current insert is installed correctly is if we're going to burn any wood. I do not have the money for a new insert right now. Since this is a vacation property, and secondary heat source the insert is not necessary and we could just put it back in to seal up some of the chimney draft (since it's currently wide open) and not burn any wood in it if there's some reason that this insert NEEDS to be replaced for safety issues until such time as I can afford a new insert. I also have the option of converting back to the fireplace, but I prefer the insert. It would be nice to use it for a few more seasons, but I can live without it if need be.
It took my husband and I about 2 hours to remove it so I don't see that a few years from now it would be that much more diffcult when we have the extra cash to replace it. Again since it's at a vacation home it's only used on Friday nights and Saturdays unless we're up for a full week's vacation in the winter time. I know pictures would be helpful, but I'm 2-1/2 hours away from the vacation home right now and I have some pictures of the insert/stove down here, but none of the inside of the chimney.
My question wasn't really about our smoking or down draft issue. It was whether dampers were necessary on fireplace inserts since all the information I can find eliminates dampers or maybe they're now built-in to the insert itself?
Anyway, there is no doubt about what our smoking/down draft issue was. Don't really need help there....the heatilator damper was never removed prior to the insert installation and the hinges and handle rusted out which CLOSED the damper with no way to open it since there was NOW an insert blocking access to said damper. When you can reach up and pull the damper with it's handle down in your hand, there's definitely some rusting out happening! This was not OUR installation and the insert was probably installed sometime in the late 70's or early 80's, we just purchased the house in March 2006.
As for the insert, it is an Alaska Kodiak Stove, I have no idea when it was made? or if there is a certain model number? there isn't one on the insert itself. I don't have much information on it other than the following: it's lined with fire bricks (which I assume to be a given), there is a baffle inside, it has a glass door and ash pan. There are air flow intake knobs on the front and sides and in the front of the ash pan in addition to below and above the stove within the box surrounding the stove.
Replacing the insert with a new one is not an option at this time, but making sure the current insert is installed correctly is if we're going to burn any wood. I do not have the money for a new insert right now. Since this is a vacation property, and secondary heat source the insert is not necessary and we could just put it back in to seal up some of the chimney draft (since it's currently wide open) and not burn any wood in it if there's some reason that this insert NEEDS to be replaced for safety issues until such time as I can afford a new insert. I also have the option of converting back to the fireplace, but I prefer the insert. It would be nice to use it for a few more seasons, but I can live without it if need be.
It took my husband and I about 2 hours to remove it so I don't see that a few years from now it would be that much more diffcult when we have the extra cash to replace it. Again since it's at a vacation home it's only used on Friday nights and Saturdays unless we're up for a full week's vacation in the winter time. I know pictures would be helpful, but I'm 2-1/2 hours away from the vacation home right now and I have some pictures of the insert/stove down here, but none of the inside of the chimney.
Ziggysum, again I urge you not to close yourself off to options at this point. Let's just consider each item for it's value, and move forward from there. If for example, the outlet for the insert is 8", spending money on a liner and the associated pieces may not be cost effective if you are going to replace the unit in a couple years. Most new stoves have a 6" outlet, so why spend $500-$1000 bucks on an 8" liner? What if the insert is not sized correctly or the clearance to combustibles is not suitable for your particular installation? Just because it was there for years doesn't mean it can't burn your house down tomorrow.
First thing is first, and what needs to be evaluated is the condition of the chimney. Forget about the liner and the stove for now. Inspect your chimney! This involves looking at it's constuction inside and out. A chimney sweep or other professional may be a wise choice to give you an idea of it's condition. Once it is established that your chimney is useable, then you can move to the next step. Contact the local building department to make sure whatever you do is in compliance with the county. One step at a time.
I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, nor am I saying what you are stating is incorrect. But, you've come here for advice. On the forum are experts in construction, a building code inspector, hearth dealers, chimney sweeps, etc. Take advantage of the combined knowledge of these professionals and make an educated decision. If indeed this is simply supplemental heat for the home, then why not do it right the first time? If it requires a year to wait for the funds, then so be it. My 2 cents.
-Kevin
First thing is first, and what needs to be evaluated is the condition of the chimney. Forget about the liner and the stove for now. Inspect your chimney! This involves looking at it's constuction inside and out. A chimney sweep or other professional may be a wise choice to give you an idea of it's condition. Once it is established that your chimney is useable, then you can move to the next step. Contact the local building department to make sure whatever you do is in compliance with the county. One step at a time.
I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, nor am I saying what you are stating is incorrect. But, you've come here for advice. On the forum are experts in construction, a building code inspector, hearth dealers, chimney sweeps, etc. Take advantage of the combined knowledge of these professionals and make an educated decision. If indeed this is simply supplemental heat for the home, then why not do it right the first time? If it requires a year to wait for the funds, then so be it. My 2 cents.
-Kevin
Kevin, I understand the #1 priority is safety and I do appreciate your concern. Which is why I asked the damper question and is why we're planning on a full reline with block off plate. Maybe I gave more information than what was needed for my damper question? My question was really due to the fact that the previous hookup had a damper installed, not that it was doing much because you could open it all you want, but if the heatilator damper wasn't open because it rusted closed the chimney was blocked. Not that the previous hookup with a damper on the insert was correct anyway and from what I understand the installation of inserts back in the 80's of just "sliding 'em in" was a common practice. Sure doesn't make it right, which is what we're going to do.
As for your concern about the condition of the chimney, it has been checked out and is in excellent shape, surprising because of the no direct connection or vent attached to the stove, but not as surprising when you figure the damper was blocking the smoke from going up it! LOL
As for the financial end, I can afford $500 - $1000 for the reline, but if I had to add another $2000 or more for a new insert that now makes it $2500 - $3000, I understand your perspective of economics, but for us, this is the more practical approach financially right now.
My husband does have a "clue" as to what is safe, etc in regards to venting. I'm not saying he knows more than the experts on this forum in regards to inserts, stoves or fireplaces, but he has to know how to do correct venting when he installs boilers/furnaces in people's homes for a living.
My pictures of the stove it appears are larger than what can be attached so I'd have to try to reduce their size to post them, although we are not in the market for a new insert anyway so I can't imagine why posting a picture of it would matter.
As for your concern about the condition of the chimney, it has been checked out and is in excellent shape, surprising because of the no direct connection or vent attached to the stove, but not as surprising when you figure the damper was blocking the smoke from going up it! LOL
As for the financial end, I can afford $500 - $1000 for the reline, but if I had to add another $2000 or more for a new insert that now makes it $2500 - $3000, I understand your perspective of economics, but for us, this is the more practical approach financially right now.
My husband does have a "clue" as to what is safe, etc in regards to venting. I'm not saying he knows more than the experts on this forum in regards to inserts, stoves or fireplaces, but he has to know how to do correct venting when he installs boilers/furnaces in people's homes for a living.
My pictures of the stove it appears are larger than what can be attached so I'd have to try to reduce their size to post them, although we are not in the market for a new insert anyway so I can't imagine why posting a picture of it would matter.
Members of the board, I need help here. Come on guys, I know I"m not the only one reading this.
Ziggysun. I feel you are needlessly going on the defensive. I'm not in any way trying to attack you or your decisions, just trying to apply logic to your situation. I found an Alaskan Stove on Ebay the other night that seemed to have an 8" outlet.
Now let's say yours has an eight inch flue, you pay $500 bucks for a liner and put the old smoke dragon back in business. Then two years later you spend $500 bucks on a stove and another $500 bucks on a new 6" liner, not to mention having to re-do all of the work involved. So now you are out $500 bucks right?
Now, let's say you are able to find an insert at a Lowes firesale (record lows on stoves this year by the way) for $500. You spend $500 bucks for a 6" liner and install yourself. So you've spent $1000 bucks to install a vastly superior stove, with a warranty, that consumes less wood and puts less pollutants into the atmosphere.
What you are telling us is that you'd rather save $500 bucks now (500 bucks for plan A vs. 1000 bucks for plan B) just so you can spend $1000 bucks 2 years later. In other words, you are saving $500 now only to loose $500 later.
You stated yourself that this is back up heat. If you're on a budget, then buy the stove, and let it sit for a year, then buy the liner the following season. Don't waste your money, time and energy to install a liner that you're only going to scrap in a couple years. The fact of the matter is, that if you don't do it now, it will be human nature to just leave the old stove in place for another 20 years and forget about it. Unless you are simply not telling us that you never intend to replace the old stove anyway.
By this point you're getting tired of me Ziggysun, but bear with me. I also have to ask who inspected your chimney and how complete of a job was done? If it were my home I'd want the chimney cleaned, then run a camera up and down the inside and a complete inspection of the interior and exterior. With all due respect to your hubby, a furnace flue has far less requirements than a chimny flue that will see a wood burning appliance. In my business, that's like asking a body man to do engine work on your car or visa versa. Sure both guys work on cars, but the skills and knowledges are vastly different.
Don't know how much more urging I can do. I'm not sure where the big rush is in getting this project done. I think if you do some heavy research into what it would cost new you might be plesantly surprised as to the value of a new stove. How about an Englander? You could have a nice glass door, efficient heat, and not pollute as much.
-Kevin
Ziggysun. I feel you are needlessly going on the defensive. I'm not in any way trying to attack you or your decisions, just trying to apply logic to your situation. I found an Alaskan Stove on Ebay the other night that seemed to have an 8" outlet.
Now let's say yours has an eight inch flue, you pay $500 bucks for a liner and put the old smoke dragon back in business. Then two years later you spend $500 bucks on a stove and another $500 bucks on a new 6" liner, not to mention having to re-do all of the work involved. So now you are out $500 bucks right?
Now, let's say you are able to find an insert at a Lowes firesale (record lows on stoves this year by the way) for $500. You spend $500 bucks for a 6" liner and install yourself. So you've spent $1000 bucks to install a vastly superior stove, with a warranty, that consumes less wood and puts less pollutants into the atmosphere.
What you are telling us is that you'd rather save $500 bucks now (500 bucks for plan A vs. 1000 bucks for plan B) just so you can spend $1000 bucks 2 years later. In other words, you are saving $500 now only to loose $500 later.
You stated yourself that this is back up heat. If you're on a budget, then buy the stove, and let it sit for a year, then buy the liner the following season. Don't waste your money, time and energy to install a liner that you're only going to scrap in a couple years. The fact of the matter is, that if you don't do it now, it will be human nature to just leave the old stove in place for another 20 years and forget about it. Unless you are simply not telling us that you never intend to replace the old stove anyway.
By this point you're getting tired of me Ziggysun, but bear with me. I also have to ask who inspected your chimney and how complete of a job was done? If it were my home I'd want the chimney cleaned, then run a camera up and down the inside and a complete inspection of the interior and exterior. With all due respect to your hubby, a furnace flue has far less requirements than a chimny flue that will see a wood burning appliance. In my business, that's like asking a body man to do engine work on your car or visa versa. Sure both guys work on cars, but the skills and knowledges are vastly different.
Don't know how much more urging I can do. I'm not sure where the big rush is in getting this project done. I think if you do some heavy research into what it would cost new you might be plesantly surprised as to the value of a new stove. How about an Englander? You could have a nice glass door, efficient heat, and not pollute as much.
-Kevin
What's up Wrench? So far you have done everything to sell this woman a new insert and nothing to answer her question. I agree that there are certain advantages to replacing an old insert with a newer cleaner burning model. There is no debate on that. However, each persons situation needs to be made on its own merits. As stated, this is a supplimental heat source in a part time vacation and weekend home. If the existing insert is in safe operating condition, why upgrade it for occasional use.
First of all, welcome to the forum Ziggysun, it's good to have you aboard.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert. I am learning as I go and have found a wealth of knowledge here, all from good people like Wrenchmonster and many others.
To my knowledge, inserts in general do not require a damper. Usually when one is installed in an existing fireplace, the existing damper is removed. A stainless steel liner is then installed from the insert all the way to the top of the chimney. A blockoff plate is then installed at the point where the liner passes through the damper opening. The liner is also sealed at the top of the chimney. This creates a 'dead' air space in the chimney, around the liner. This prevents flue gasses from collecting in that space, or in the space behind the insert and possibly igniting. It also helps to reduce heat loss up the chimney. This is a generalization, since I am not familliar with your specific insert. Hopefully that helps to answer your original question. I also hope that some of the true experts here will join in and either confirm or deny the information I provided. You may also want to start a new thread with your insert make and model in the title, along with the word damper or liner.
Wrenchmonster did make a good point about having the chimney and insert inspected and possibly cleaned. Since you do not have a long history with this home and insert (not knowing how it was burned and maintained, etc...), I would encourage you to have it inspected to be sure that it is in safe operating condition. If it is, there should be no reason that you cannot properly line the chimney and continue to use the insert. This is a job that you and your husband should be able to tackle yourselves, especially with a little research and some good questions here.
Our number one concern is for your safety and the safety of your home. Please cotinue to look here for answers to your questions, good advice, opinions and plenty of friendly banter.
Just my .02
First of all, welcome to the forum Ziggysun, it's good to have you aboard.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert. I am learning as I go and have found a wealth of knowledge here, all from good people like Wrenchmonster and many others.
To my knowledge, inserts in general do not require a damper. Usually when one is installed in an existing fireplace, the existing damper is removed. A stainless steel liner is then installed from the insert all the way to the top of the chimney. A blockoff plate is then installed at the point where the liner passes through the damper opening. The liner is also sealed at the top of the chimney. This creates a 'dead' air space in the chimney, around the liner. This prevents flue gasses from collecting in that space, or in the space behind the insert and possibly igniting. It also helps to reduce heat loss up the chimney. This is a generalization, since I am not familliar with your specific insert. Hopefully that helps to answer your original question. I also hope that some of the true experts here will join in and either confirm or deny the information I provided. You may also want to start a new thread with your insert make and model in the title, along with the word damper or liner.
Wrenchmonster did make a good point about having the chimney and insert inspected and possibly cleaned. Since you do not have a long history with this home and insert (not knowing how it was burned and maintained, etc...), I would encourage you to have it inspected to be sure that it is in safe operating condition. If it is, there should be no reason that you cannot properly line the chimney and continue to use the insert. This is a job that you and your husband should be able to tackle yourselves, especially with a little research and some good questions here.
Our number one concern is for your safety and the safety of your home. Please cotinue to look here for answers to your questions, good advice, opinions and plenty of friendly banter.
Just my .02
MrGriz said:
LOL, you're right Griz. I'm sorry Ziggysun. I was just getting wrapped up in the moment. I'm no expert either, hence my call for other forum members to help. My understanding is the same as MrGrizs, so... no damper needed. How would you install a damper on a liner anyway?
Hopefully more will chime in here.
-Kevin
(subliminal message: BUY A NEW STOVE!)
Hi Kevin,
Please understand, I am not on the defensive, we just have a difference of opinion regarding whether I should get a new insert stove, which by the way was not my question.
Our Alaska stove does have an 8" outlet and we're planning to run an 8" full reline, block plate, etc. Now, as for finding a "new" stove for $500? I'm not sure where you live, but I doubt I could find a fireplace insert stove that I would be happy with for less than $2K. Believe me I've priced the new ones.
I understand your point of losing $500 later, but I might save $500 in heating oil during those 2 years, so maybe it wouldn't really be a $500 loss.
My original message did not say I wanted to replace my current insert stove. I'm quite happy with the current one I have. It was a possibility down the road, if the stove NEEDED to be replaced, (ie. not producing heat, something broken, stove cracked, etc.) The one point I guess that could be missing in this is if we do the reline of our current setup and it's done by code, works and we don't have any problem who's to say we HAVE to replace it in 2 years, it just might work for us for 5+ years. Again, I'm sure I'd be saving $$ on oil in the meantime by using the stove even though I'm using it minimally. I'm not trying to pollute, I'm trying to burn wood to save oil. I guess it's a catch 22.
Maybe it will help to know that the house is a ranch home so only 1 story, pretty easy access to the chimney. Probably only 16 ft or so, husband has the actual dimensions in his wallet. A local chimney sweep friend of a friend inspected it in addition to some of our contractor friends having all looked at our chimney, they all say the same thing that it's in excellent shape. We know the chimney is safe to use or we would FIX and/or REPLACE it.
As to human nature, I understand that the vast majority of people just leave things, but obviously that is not US since we've had the house for only 10 months and pulled the insert OUT as soon as we had a problem. I don't know maybe we should have pulled it out the day we settled? On this particular issue I'll grant you that I may be a little defensive, but I guess you couldn't possibly know all of the work that we have done on this house from converting from fuses to breakers, 100 amp to 200 amp, installing new water holding pressure tank, putting in new drainage pipes on the roads and driveways, etc., so it's quite possible that I might take offense at the thought of us just letting something go that should be taken care of.
At any rate, I understand that you want me to make sure my home is safe and I do appreciate that, but please know that so do WE.
Please understand, I am not on the defensive, we just have a difference of opinion regarding whether I should get a new insert stove, which by the way was not my question.
Our Alaska stove does have an 8" outlet and we're planning to run an 8" full reline, block plate, etc. Now, as for finding a "new" stove for $500? I'm not sure where you live, but I doubt I could find a fireplace insert stove that I would be happy with for less than $2K. Believe me I've priced the new ones.
I understand your point of losing $500 later, but I might save $500 in heating oil during those 2 years, so maybe it wouldn't really be a $500 loss.
My original message did not say I wanted to replace my current insert stove. I'm quite happy with the current one I have. It was a possibility down the road, if the stove NEEDED to be replaced, (ie. not producing heat, something broken, stove cracked, etc.) The one point I guess that could be missing in this is if we do the reline of our current setup and it's done by code, works and we don't have any problem who's to say we HAVE to replace it in 2 years, it just might work for us for 5+ years. Again, I'm sure I'd be saving $$ on oil in the meantime by using the stove even though I'm using it minimally. I'm not trying to pollute, I'm trying to burn wood to save oil. I guess it's a catch 22.
Maybe it will help to know that the house is a ranch home so only 1 story, pretty easy access to the chimney. Probably only 16 ft or so, husband has the actual dimensions in his wallet. A local chimney sweep friend of a friend inspected it in addition to some of our contractor friends having all looked at our chimney, they all say the same thing that it's in excellent shape. We know the chimney is safe to use or we would FIX and/or REPLACE it.
As to human nature, I understand that the vast majority of people just leave things, but obviously that is not US since we've had the house for only 10 months and pulled the insert OUT as soon as we had a problem. I don't know maybe we should have pulled it out the day we settled? On this particular issue I'll grant you that I may be a little defensive, but I guess you couldn't possibly know all of the work that we have done on this house from converting from fuses to breakers, 100 amp to 200 amp, installing new water holding pressure tank, putting in new drainage pipes on the roads and driveways, etc., so it's quite possible that I might take offense at the thought of us just letting something go that should be taken care of.
At any rate, I understand that you want me to make sure my home is safe and I do appreciate that, but please know that so do WE.
wrenchmonster said:
If there isn't one built into the outlet of the insert, one could add an inline damper if desired. Of course on an insert one would have trouble getting to the handle of the inline damper if the opening to the fireplace is blocked by sheet metal.
I'm not sure from your posts, Ziggy, if the Kodiak originally had a damper, too, or only the fireplace. If the insert DID have a damper, your husband could probably repair it or possibly add a new one that is controlled at the front of the stove.
Englander Stoves. Check out prices at Lowes fire sales. Almost giving them away. http://www.englanderstoves.com/wood_stoves.html Dealers listed by state on the website. I don't know who is near you.
I found a used deal on a stove and chimney set up for $950. The stove itself new priced out to be $1500, and the chimney would have been $700. So I basically got my deal for 1/2 price. Good deals can be found. Check E-bay and Craiglist.
Never meant to imply you were lazy Ziggysun, or that you were not commited to fixing your home. Good luck.
-Kevin
I found a used deal on a stove and chimney set up for $950. The stove itself new priced out to be $1500, and the chimney would have been $700. So I basically got my deal for 1/2 price. Good deals can be found. Check E-bay and Craiglist.
Never meant to imply you were lazy Ziggysun, or that you were not commited to fixing your home. Good luck.
-Kevin
Now I'm no rocket scientist here but Why would one want to put a damper on a stove? It's no longer a fireplace, right.
Maybe we should go back to square one here (or maybe it's just me).
This is a masonry chimney?
It has a heatilator fireplace? Is this a ZC thing? (experts.... I don't understand)
The stove has a 8" outlet.... Will you be able to get a 8" liner through the old damper plate opening?
I really have no clue on some.......... well...... most of this stuff just thought maybe I could jar acouple of thoughts from the others...
Good luck..
EDIT.....I meant to say why put a damper above the stove or on the pipe, shouldn't the stove itself have one?
Maybe we should go back to square one here (or maybe it's just me).
This is a masonry chimney?
It has a heatilator fireplace? Is this a ZC thing? (experts.... I don't understand)
The stove has a 8" outlet.... Will you be able to get a 8" liner through the old damper plate opening?
I really have no clue on some.......... well...... most of this stuff just thought maybe I could jar acouple of thoughts from the others...
Good luck..
EDIT.....I meant to say why put a damper above the stove or on the pipe, shouldn't the stove itself have one?
It's good to see some others chiming in here.
Ziggy, no one thinks you are letting anything go that needs attention. The very fact that you are here and actively participating in this thread is proof of that. Why would you pull out an insert that was functioning properly? That would be like re-building the engine in a used car, simply because you just bought it yourself.
I just thought that since you had everything apart, this would be a good time for an inspection. It would be a good idea to have the chimney cleaned, especially with the way the install was originally done.
I think that if the insert is in safe operating condition, there is no reason that you should not get quite a few good years of part time use out of it. If this was your permanent residence and you wanted to burn 24/7, making wood your number one source of heat, I may also suggest upgrading to a more efficient unit. Even then, there would be a whole other set of questions to ask to determine if it would be worth replacing at all.
Your're on the right track. Let us know how we can continue to help.
Ziggy, no one thinks you are letting anything go that needs attention. The very fact that you are here and actively participating in this thread is proof of that. Why would you pull out an insert that was functioning properly? That would be like re-building the engine in a used car, simply because you just bought it yourself.
I just thought that since you had everything apart, this would be a good time for an inspection. It would be a good idea to have the chimney cleaned, especially with the way the install was originally done.
I think that if the insert is in safe operating condition, there is no reason that you should not get quite a few good years of part time use out of it. If this was your permanent residence and you wanted to burn 24/7, making wood your number one source of heat, I may also suggest upgrading to a more efficient unit. Even then, there would be a whole other set of questions to ask to determine if it would be worth replacing at all.
Your're on the right track. Let us know how we can continue to help.
GVA said:
GVA, my understanding is modern inserts do not have dampers. I assume that a big reason for this is once the insert is installed, there is virtually no access to the liner. Thus making it almost impossible to adjust or regulate the damper. I'm sure there would be a way, but...
That's what I mean. I thought that one of the questions here was should there be a damper installed somewhere downstream of the stove. At least thats what I thought they were saying.MrGriz said:
To answer your first question. The damper originally was either removed or one could rig up a bolt and keep it in the open position,maybe a clamp on the hinge. It appears that was the choice but what ever held it open rusted out or fell behing the insert. Again you are correct ,that earlier inserts were just pushed in place and the damper removed of fixed in the open position.
Per code a 6" stove appliance can be vented into an 8" liner
Which is many times safer than the way the current setup is. It is also possible future 6" venting stove could work quite well in a full 8" liner, especially an insulated liner. It is also quite possible you do not need to run a future 6" liner inside again especially true if insulation the 8" In your situation once you move the insert out, the blockoff plate even for the 8" liner should be done
Now, will a future 6" appliance draft correctly possibly? Would it vent better in a 6" liner, yes? I would try the 8" first, then determine stove preformance. Pretty easy to get a 6" into the 8" later. Both my stoves work exceptionally well venting into 8/8 clay flue. I have to damper then down to hold them back.
Next question:
Almost all new inserts have damper built in. you will never need to replace that old damper with an modern insert.
Not mentioned is you means of protection where is the smoke, and carbon monoxide sensors? fire extinguisher? Do not opperate that stove again without these 3 items present or for that matter any stove. Kevin is also right about modern stoves. Recently Lowes sold all their stoves at 50% off. One could fit you budget. Home Depot will soon be doing the same. Nobody here gave you bad advice were are all trying to factor in safety and clean burning. Neither of which your situation qualifies for now. The liner attached to the stove top,, is a good step towards increasing your safety.
Per code a 6" stove appliance can be vented into an 8" liner
Which is many times safer than the way the current setup is. It is also possible future 6" venting stove could work quite well in a full 8" liner, especially an insulated liner. It is also quite possible you do not need to run a future 6" liner inside again especially true if insulation the 8" In your situation once you move the insert out, the blockoff plate even for the 8" liner should be done
Now, will a future 6" appliance draft correctly possibly? Would it vent better in a 6" liner, yes? I would try the 8" first, then determine stove preformance. Pretty easy to get a 6" into the 8" later. Both my stoves work exceptionally well venting into 8/8 clay flue. I have to damper then down to hold them back.
Next question:
Almost all new inserts have damper built in. you will never need to replace that old damper with an modern insert.
Not mentioned is you means of protection where is the smoke, and carbon monoxide sensors? fire extinguisher? Do not opperate that stove again without these 3 items present or for that matter any stove. Kevin is also right about modern stoves. Recently Lowes sold all their stoves at 50% off. One could fit you budget. Home Depot will soon be doing the same. Nobody here gave you bad advice were are all trying to factor in safety and clean burning. Neither of which your situation qualifies for now. The liner attached to the stove top,, is a good step towards increasing your safety.
Hi Mr. Griz and thank you for the welcome.
Also, I'd like to thank you for your answer to the question regarding the damper.
This insert stove has a baffle plate, which I am thinking could act as it's damper since the baffle can be moved to 3 different positions (forward, center, completely back) while operating the stove. What generated my question was the fact that the previous install had a damper going through the fireplace surround which consisted of an L shaped damper rod through the surround and connected to a metal plate that sat on top of the pipe outlet or could be moved back away from it. Of course this "insert damper" probably worked for awhile until the fireplace or heatilator damper fell into it's closed position. How well we'll probably never know since the gentleman who owned the home passed away. Still we were quite surprised to find it not with a direct connection up through the damper opening or at the very least some form of venting attached to it.
Mr. Griz your generalization was great. I understand exactly what you're saying, probably because I looked and semi-climbed up into the chimney once the insert was removed. Curiosity got the better of me I suppose.
Also, I'd like to thank you for your answer to the question regarding the damper.
This insert stove has a baffle plate, which I am thinking could act as it's damper since the baffle can be moved to 3 different positions (forward, center, completely back) while operating the stove. What generated my question was the fact that the previous install had a damper going through the fireplace surround which consisted of an L shaped damper rod through the surround and connected to a metal plate that sat on top of the pipe outlet or could be moved back away from it. Of course this "insert damper" probably worked for awhile until the fireplace or heatilator damper fell into it's closed position. How well we'll probably never know since the gentleman who owned the home passed away. Still we were quite surprised to find it not with a direct connection up through the damper opening or at the very least some form of venting attached to it.
Mr. Griz your generalization was great. I understand exactly what you're saying, probably because I looked and semi-climbed up into the chimney once the insert was removed. Curiosity got the better of me I suppose.
Hi GVA,
I don't WANT to put a damper on the insert, there was one on the surround prior which blocked off the outlet of the insert, but without it being lined that setup was possible, but EXTREMELY dangerous! So we won't be doing that!
In answer to your other questions, it is a masonry chimney lined with flue liners. It is a heatilator fireplace, if we installed a new heatilator damper, we could light a fire in it tomorrow as the chimney is clean and in useable condition. Once we run the liner that will not be the case as we'll be cutting an opening to fit the 8" liner through the damper area or going to an oval piece maybe for the whole ride up to the top of the chimney. Either way there will be a blockoff plate at the current damper spot.
Kevin, your question of "how would you put a damper on a liner" was where my confusion was also.
I didn't know if there was some new thing out there I didn't know about. Maybe an electronic controlled one that would go inside the liner that you could use by holding it at the stove kind of like a remote. I know it might sound far fetched, but kids no longer buy radios for music! LOL
I don't WANT to put a damper on the insert, there was one on the surround prior which blocked off the outlet of the insert, but without it being lined that setup was possible, but EXTREMELY dangerous! So we won't be doing that!
In answer to your other questions, it is a masonry chimney lined with flue liners. It is a heatilator fireplace, if we installed a new heatilator damper, we could light a fire in it tomorrow as the chimney is clean and in useable condition. Once we run the liner that will not be the case as we'll be cutting an opening to fit the 8" liner through the damper area or going to an oval piece maybe for the whole ride up to the top of the chimney. Either way there will be a blockoff plate at the current damper spot.
Kevin, your question of "how would you put a damper on a liner" was where my confusion was also.
I didn't know if there was some new thing out there I didn't know about. Maybe an electronic controlled one that would go inside the liner that you could use by holding it at the stove kind of like a remote. I know it might sound far fetched, but kids no longer buy radios for music! LOL
Glad to be of some help.
From what I have learned, it was not all that uncommon for older inserts to simply be pushed into the fireplace. The surround and whatever draft was created by the existing chimney was relied upon to keep smoke, flue gasses and possibly carbon monoxide from backing up into the house. Of course, we live and learn; more modern, better burning installation practices are developed.
Many cases of improper or unsafe installations are also related to a lack of research or education as to proper installation and burning practices. For example, I have a friend who has an older, pre EPA, insert installed in one of the fireplaces in the house he recently bought. His is installed as yours; just pushed into the fireplace with no connection to the existing flue or liner. He had smoke backing up into the room from behind the face plate of the insert, so just stuffed some insulation in the gaps. At least he used kaowool, which was a stroke of luck (he happened to have some laying around). He was also quite pleased with the fact that he was getting so much heat out of the insert that he could see parts of it glowing red when it was really burning well.
Here's where the education comes in. I started talking to him about proper installation methods as well as the benefits of newer, more efficient, cleaner burning inserts and stoves. I also brought up some of the dangers of overfiring a stove or insert as well as the dangers of flue gasses entering the living space. Long story short, I think there is a new Hearthstone with a proper installation in the works.
The point is; until he found out there was a better, safer way, he thought that his insert was doing just fine. There is no substitute for a little good education and an informed decision, based on your unique situation.
From what I have learned, it was not all that uncommon for older inserts to simply be pushed into the fireplace. The surround and whatever draft was created by the existing chimney was relied upon to keep smoke, flue gasses and possibly carbon monoxide from backing up into the house. Of course, we live and learn; more modern, better burning installation practices are developed.
Many cases of improper or unsafe installations are also related to a lack of research or education as to proper installation and burning practices. For example, I have a friend who has an older, pre EPA, insert installed in one of the fireplaces in the house he recently bought. His is installed as yours; just pushed into the fireplace with no connection to the existing flue or liner. He had smoke backing up into the room from behind the face plate of the insert, so just stuffed some insulation in the gaps. At least he used kaowool, which was a stroke of luck (he happened to have some laying around). He was also quite pleased with the fact that he was getting so much heat out of the insert that he could see parts of it glowing red when it was really burning well.
Here's where the education comes in. I started talking to him about proper installation methods as well as the benefits of newer, more efficient, cleaner burning inserts and stoves. I also brought up some of the dangers of overfiring a stove or insert as well as the dangers of flue gasses entering the living space. Long story short, I think there is a new Hearthstone with a proper installation in the works.
The point is; until he found out there was a better, safer way, he thought that his insert was doing just fine. There is no substitute for a little good education and an informed decision, based on your unique situation.
elkimmeg,
Thank you for the insight into venting a 6" insert with the 8" vent. I was wondering since they sell the 6/8 reducer/increaser if that was possible. My thought was if I HAD to replace at a later date to buy something that I can use my 8" liner to vent so we wouldn't have to do a whole new reline. I must say though I also wondered if the 6" would fit right on through the 8" and if that would be within code regulations to have the 2 liners.
Detectors; we have 3 smoke and 2 Carbon Monoxide. Fire Extinguishers; 2 in the house, 2 in the outside garage/workshop. Our house is approx. 1,300 sq. ft. The location we picked for the closest smoke detector to the stove is where the natural house draft flows, it's about 20 feet away from the stove's location. It's also close to the kitchen and goes off when we make toast sometimes so it's a good detector, as are the others in the house. 1 Carbon Monoxide is in the same room as the stove and 1 is in where our furnace is.
I did not think anyone gave me bad advice, I'm sorry if my posts sounded that way. I do appreciate and understand the concern.
To be honest though, I did feel as though Wrench might have worked for a local stove/insert store LOL
Thank you for the insight into venting a 6" insert with the 8" vent. I was wondering since they sell the 6/8 reducer/increaser if that was possible. My thought was if I HAD to replace at a later date to buy something that I can use my 8" liner to vent so we wouldn't have to do a whole new reline. I must say though I also wondered if the 6" would fit right on through the 8" and if that would be within code regulations to have the 2 liners.
Detectors; we have 3 smoke and 2 Carbon Monoxide. Fire Extinguishers; 2 in the house, 2 in the outside garage/workshop. Our house is approx. 1,300 sq. ft. The location we picked for the closest smoke detector to the stove is where the natural house draft flows, it's about 20 feet away from the stove's location. It's also close to the kitchen and goes off when we make toast sometimes so it's a good detector, as are the others in the house. 1 Carbon Monoxide is in the same room as the stove and 1 is in where our furnace is.
I did not think anyone gave me bad advice, I'm sorry if my posts sounded that way. I do appreciate and understand the concern.
To be honest though, I did feel as though Wrench might have worked for a local stove/insert store LOL
Vermont Castings uses an 8" flue vent in its large winter warm insert stove there are dstill some stoves that use 8" flues
One cannot reduce the flue size, unless that stove has been tested and listed for thee reduction
One cannot reduce the flue size, unless that stove has been tested and listed for thee reduction
Thanks to everyone for their posts/responses. I really do appreciate the advice, information, etc.
I did check out the Lowe's in both areas (main and vacation homes) and they only have the stoves, no inserts in stock. Figured I'd see if any were on sale while researching information and prior to buying any lining equipment.
Kevin, I also did check out the Englander site, it seems they really only have one insert with different options. Not that there's anything wrong with their insert, it's just a little too streamlined looking so not really my taste.
On the other hand, I do like Vermont Castings Winter Warm Large Insert, but there's no doubt that is in the $2K range or knowing my taste probably more.
Again, thank you everyone for your input.
I did check out the Lowe's in both areas (main and vacation homes) and they only have the stoves, no inserts in stock. Figured I'd see if any were on sale while researching information and prior to buying any lining equipment.
Kevin, I also did check out the Englander site, it seems they really only have one insert with different options. Not that there's anything wrong with their insert, it's just a little too streamlined looking so not really my taste.
On the other hand, I do like Vermont Castings Winter Warm Large Insert, but there's no doubt that is in the $2K range or knowing my taste probably more.
Again, thank you everyone for your input.
Road trip to Rochester!
(broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300076383497&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=300076383497&fvi=1)
Yeah, it's the small one. Might be worth checking out if the price is right. Ziggysun, make sure you take numerous measurements while the stove is out of the firebox. Then when you are ready for a new stove you'll have good information to go by for shopping. The above is just an example to show there are good used deals out there. Unless you are set on a new stove, which I would definately do if buying a pellet stove. But a well cared for used woodstove can be a great money savings vs. a new unit. See, I don't work for any stove manufacturer or hearth dealer
-Kevin
(broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300076383497&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=300076383497&fvi=1)
Yeah, it's the small one. Might be worth checking out if the price is right. Ziggysun, make sure you take numerous measurements while the stove is out of the firebox. Then when you are ready for a new stove you'll have good information to go by for shopping. The above is just an example to show there are good used deals out there. Unless you are set on a new stove, which I would definately do if buying a pellet stove. But a well cared for used woodstove can be a great money savings vs. a new unit. See, I don't work for any stove manufacturer or hearth dealer
-Kevin
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