Does this diagnosis make sense?

[soulbarn]

We have a soapstone wood stove - a Fireview 201, circa about 1990 (we just moved in - the stove was here. We know NOTHING about wood stoves or beer, having transferred from Los Angeles to rural New Hampshire this past summer.)

When we lit the stove, lots of smoke came out. We did some troubleshooting but couldn’t solve the issue, so we called the local sweep.

They found lots of stage 3 creosote and evidence of previous chimney fires. They also determined that the catalyst box was damaged and warped.

There was so much creosote that they said there weren’t many options. They felt the best of those poor options was to treat the chimney daily with a special creosote busting spray. That might, they said, loosen things up so that one or two seasonal cleanings from now we might be in better shape.

Another thing they said was that we’d likely need a new liner at that point. They didn’t think it was safe to simply put a new liner in without dealing with the creosote first.

We would like very much to use the stove, but we are obviously nervous about safety. One suggestion the sweep made was to consider - since our stove is old and not in great shape - putting in a pellet stove. That’s because, he suggested, a pellet stove burns cooler and wood be less likely to cause a chimney fire, but we could still consider the creosote treatment and ultimately replace the liner.

Does this make sense? Any advice? I’ve uploaded the written diagnosis from the sweep, as well as some photos. Thanks.

———

“

 

[soulbarn]

This is the diagnosis from the sweep:

“
Level I Inspection which includes removal of creosote and visual inspection of accessible areas to insure integrity and code compliance. Swept Woodstock Soapstone woodstove. Extreme amount of type III creosote glaze in flue. 100% blockage above thimble. Heavy type III deposits remain on flue tiles. Anti-Creo-Soot spray must be used to help dry out deposits so they can be removed at next sweep or two. Substantial risk of chimney fire if stove is operated however. Catalytic combusted in stove is destroyed, must be replaced to operate properly per manufacturer. Recommend replacing stove with modern efficient woodstove, or with a pellet stove. Due to chimney fire, flue tiles are almost certainly cracked and will require a stainless steel liner to be safe to operate.”

 

[begreen]

Yes, it makes sense. Sorry you have inherited this problem. Did the seller state this in listing known defects with the house?

The sweep's advice is sound and you did the right thing by having them look at it. Is this chimney interior or exterior, freestanding or part of a fireplace? The reason I ask is that one option is to tear it down and put in a safe modern metal chimney. This could be located in the current location or perhaps in another location that is more preferable for a stove. The pellet stove is an option with an insulated liner but I would not be comfortable doing this before the stage III creosote is removed. However, a pellet stove is much easier to vent because most pellet stoves have fan forced venting. One can vent it out a side wall with just a short flue rise.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Given the info above.. and im not a sweep or a professional.. before doing anything I would get a second opinion on your stove and chimney that never hurts.
If the above is confirmed
i would install the stainless steel liner and also drop a new stove in it.
Sounds like the inside of the chimney is bad and the newer stoves are much more efficient.

 

[Kevin Weis]

Well, the sweep say it's blocked with creosote and sounds like it can't be removed without taking the chimney down? Why is he suggesting to burn these creosote logs then??? And confused as to can the creosote be removed by a sweep or not? Sounds like he's saying no? Kevin

 

[Woody Stover]

The Fireview 201 should be efficient when it's running right. I like the clean look of a stove on the hearth rear-vented into a masonry chimney. Getting that chimney up to snuff sounds like a project, though. As far as the stove, getting it running well might not be too hard to do providing it hasn't been overfired and damaged. That might not be too likely though. When someone is burning wet wood, they tend to open up the air to get it burning, then neglect to cut the air as the load dries out, resulting in the stove being overfired. But if you are handy, you might be able to replace a couple warped parts (cheap for the Woodstocks,) get a new combustor, seal some interior stone seams with stove cement, and be on your way with a nice heater...if that stove is sized right for your sq.footage, floor plan, insulation level.

 

[blades]

This didn't show up in a home inspection? Or was one not done? My thoughts - we already know that the flue is loaded with creosote and possibly has had several flue fires to one degree or another, therefore the clay tile that makes up the flue liner are highly suspect. Best choice would be to completely remove clay tiles ( they get broken out) then install an insulated liner in said flue. Rather than messing around with trying to chemically breakdown the creosote for removal. ( besides come next spring you like will likely have a rather strong scent coming from that flue due to the creosote) As to the stove itself , some pictures would help, not only us but I would contact Woodstock themselves ( they pretty good people) with same pictures to get their take on the viability of repair of stove. Just replacing the cat would be a minor expense vs cost of a different stove.
As to cause of this mess- improper burning habits and improperly dried fuel. Note: almost all firewood suppliers , regardless of their advertising hype do not sell properly dried fire wood. Most are of the "cut it to day sell next week" only exception would be those few that have properly kiln dried the fire wood ( and that will take at minimum 30 hours at 160-180 degF with air circulation and proper moisture ventilation - I write this because there some out there that say kiln dried but in reality are simply heat treating for bugs which is apx a 6 hour cycle).

 

[jetsam]

We know NOTHING about wood stoves or beer, having transferred from Los Angeles to rural New Hampshire this past summer.)

This is the first time I've heard that they don't have beer in L.A.! How did you stand it there?

But yes, safety demands a clean chimney, new liner, and dry wood. If you want to actually heat with wood, consider a new EPA stove also as it will use a lot less wood- and you can ditch the soapstone for steel or cast iron.

As far as repairs go, I wouldn't put one cent into a pre-EPA stove or a soapstone stove, and that one is both.

 

[soulbarn]

Thanks for these very helpful replies. Don’t know how the word “beer” crept in, but I can assure the group I have a more-than-passing familiarity with the product.

So as far as triage, what first? Spend two seasons with smelly burns and try to remove the creosote with the recommended solution?

To answer a couple of questions, the stove pipe goes into the wall, then the chimney goes to the roof. We have a fireplace as well that uses a separate chimney (which, given the issue w the stove, I also had inspected. It passed.)

Our home inspector apparently did not catch this. We asked that the chimneys be cleaned prior to closing the deal. The fireplace chimney, our sweep told us, clearly had been. The stove clearly hadn’t. Not inclined to use legal means for recourse. I’d just like to break down the steps I should take to get this working (if it matters, the house was built in the 80s.)

I will post some pictures next. Thanks again.

 

[soulbarn]

Here are some photos. The chimney is interior, not freestanding, and vents to the roof. Thank you.

 

[jetsam]

My next step would be to measure the chimney to see what size insulated liner could fit in it.

Once you know what size liner you can use, you can use that information to choose a stove and choose a matching liner. You want to consider heating requirements and choose the stove first because if you go ahead and pull a 6" liner, you won't be able to choose a stove that requires an 8" liner.

A 6" liner fits most of what is out there in the 2.5 cf-and-down market.

So once the chimney is measured, the question is what do you want the stove to do. Will it be the only heat source? Burned at night in winter to lower the cost of the central heat? Burned twice a year as a decoration?

Give us some info about the size of the place and how it's insulated, and what you want the stove to accomplish. If the place is well insulated and not huge, the answer is probably going to be that you want a 6" liner.

 

[soulbarn]

Thanks. The sweeps implied that we shouldn’t reline the chimney until we’ve resolved the creosote issue, though they said that doing so was possible. Or am I
misunderstanding?

 

[soulbarn]

The house is 3,000 square feet, post and beam, fairly open floor plan, lots of skylights for passive solar heating, and is pretty tight as far as insulation goes. We would like to use the wood stove to effect a substantial savings on oil. The stove is on the first floor, bedrooms are directly above, the third floor is office space. I am attracted to the convenience of pellet but not wedded to any particular technology.

This forum is awesome. I so appreciate the thoughtful replies.

 

[kennyp2339]

After seeing all those pics I would agree with the sweep, that chimney needs to be treated and scrubbed clean, after removing the fuel that could burn the place down (referring to creosote) it would be appropriate to install an insulated liner, the stove being for the early 90's has served its purpose, time for a newer cleaner burning more efficient stove.
After the chimney is cleaned and made safe the next discussion should be to either upgrade the stove, or switch over to pellets if that's you thing.
Wood heat takes a commitment, it takes at least 2 years to properly dry wood, wood sellers if splitting isn't your thing will never sell dry wood <20% moisture content, even though they advertise seasoned wood.
Pellet stoves on the other hand cost money, (pellet fuel) need electric to operate, so if you have frequent power outages a gene is must to maintain heat.

 

[jetsam]

Re: the photos that just went up, WOW. Do not try to light a fire in that thing.

The old venting system had issues before it got plugged with goo, too. You will likely end up wanting to move the thimble higher when you get it fixed (which means a new hole in the wall and bricking up the old one).

@bholler : Whatcha think?

 

[jetsam]

Thanks. The sweeps implied that we shouldn’t reline the chimney until we’ve resolved the creosote issue, though they said that doing so was possible. Or am I
misunderstanding?

No, that's correct.

 

[soulbarn]

But if I shouldn’t light a fire in there, how do I clean it - the spray they recommended requires fire, right? I was told that there are acid treatments, but none of the local guys will handle such substances. I suppose I could try pouring some of that mysterious Los Angeles beer down it....

 

[Woody Stover]

As far as repairs go, I wouldn't put one cent into a pre-EPA stove or a soapstone stove, and that one is both.

Any of the 201s manufactured after 1988 are EPA stoves, but in '90 (?) the more modern standard went into effect. The metal tag on the back of the stove should have the date of manufacture. But that stove isn't gonna heat 3000 sq.ft. Might do OK downstairs though, especially if you are sitting line-of-sight to feel some radiation. The next Fireview, the 205, routed the exhaust better to extract more heat. But that baby would heat to some degree. Call 'em and ask about it, they are happy to help even if you're not buying anything.
You don't want a noisy pellet stove, do you? And like kenny said, no heat if (when) the power goes out. And fuel supply issues, market pricing etc.

it takes at least 2 years to properly dry wood

Dense woods like Oak and hard Maple, yes, but you can get soft Maple dry by the coming season if you get it split now (not too big) and stack it in the wind, top-covered only. It won't burn as long as Oak, but will work OK.

Don’t know how the word “beer” crept in, but I can assure the group I have a more-than-passing familiarity with the product.

You're gonna need more than beer or wine to survive a winter up there.

So as far as triage, what first? Spend two seasons with smelly burns and try to remove the creosote with the recommended solution? To answer a couple of questions, the stove pipe goes into the wall, then the chimney goes to the roof. We have a fireplace as well that uses a separate chimney (which, given the issue w the stove, I also had inspected. It passed.

The Fireview can maybe sit on the hearth of the masonry fireplace, rear-vent into a stainless tee and then run an insulated stainless liner to the top of the clay tiles? Or bust out the tiles in the chimney the stove is connected to now? What is the ID of the clay tiles of the present chimney?
Maybe @bholler will chime in but we haven't heard much from him in the last several days..he may be busy in the field doing all the kinds of stuff you need done. I don't think he would suggest the creo chemical. I think rotary equipment would clean it in short order but I'm not sure...

 

[T-roy_]

But if I shouldn’t light a fire in there, how do I clean it - the spray they recommended requires fire, right? I was told that there are acid treatments, but none of the local guys will handle such substances. I suppose I could try pouring some of that mysterious Los Angeles beer down it....

Break the the flue tiles out and remove. The sweep should be equipped to do this type of work.

 

[T-roy_]

Then add a insulated liner of course...

 

[jetsam]

I would normally say get a brush through it first and the see how the sides look, but if you can't even get a brush through... I paged bholler a while ago, he will know.

Breaking out the clay liner removes your need to clean the clay liner and gives you more room for an insulated liner.

Try to decide now what you want the finished product to be (New large stove? Just clean out the old system?)

If it was my house, I would already know that I was getting a new stove and liner and probably relocating that thimble, so I wouldn't spend any time or effort on cleaning the old thimble or clay tiles, since both would be removed anyway.

That might not be the same decision you make, but the path to avoid is the one where you spend time/effort/money to clean up the old system and then tear it out anyway.

If the sweep said it needed a new liner, that could mean that it doesn't have a steel liner inside the clay, or that it does but it is fried, or that the clay liner itself is damaged.

 

[SpaceBus]

If your sweep didn't give you a quote to break the creosote and tiles out and install an insulated liner, I would call a second sweep.

 

[bholler]

Get a different sweep out there who will clean it and inspect it properly so you know what you are dealing with

 

[Woody Stover]

Get a different sweep out there who will clean it and inspect it properly so you know what you are dealing with

How does one find a good sweep? What should you ask? I know that in the past you've said that certification isn't a guarantee, either..

 

[bholler]

How does one find a good sweep? What should you ask? I know that in the past you've said that certification isn't a guarantee, either..

References