Does this really cut drying time?

[Starbrightsteve]

A guy selling me oak yesterday said that a logger told him if the tree is cut with green leaves on it and the firewood is cut after the leaves have dried up, the oak will only require one years drying under cover until its fit to burn. Is this BS, an old wives tale or is there some truth in it?

 

[ohlongarm]

A guy selling me oak yesterday said that a logger told him if the tree is cut with green leaves on it and the firewood is cut after the leaves have dried up, the oak will only require one years drying under cover until its fit to burn. Is this BS, an old wives tale or is there some truth in it?

Don't know however I seasoned 5 cords of red oak in one year, on plastic pallets with clear plastic covering it about 6 inches down the sides. The plastic is the stuff used in greenhouses made in Israel, it was unbelievable.

 

[begreen]

Based on the weather and rain reports coming from the east coast this year, I don't think so. Allow two years.

 

[WoodBurnerInWI]

A guy selling me oak yesterday said that a logger told him if the tree is cut with green leaves on it and the firewood is cut after the leaves have dried up, the oak will only require one years drying under cover until its fit to burn. Is this BS, an old wives tale or is there some truth in it?

Norwegians used this practice in the past (and may still do) when logging as they believed that the drying of the leaves would remove lots of water from the trunk and limbs. Is there any scientific basis to this claim? It's hard to say, I've always kind of categorized this claim as an old wives tale. I don't believe this has ever been studied that deeply. I would expect that letting leaves dry out before cutting or otherwise, a denser wood like oak would still require 2-3 years of drying if kept in single row stacks covered from rain and snow. Now something that has been discussed deeply on here (and elsewhere) is the idea of the plastic wrapped stacks acting as a kiln of sorts and drying wood in one year or less. I do believe this works as far as the faster drying times are concerned and this would be a better idea to research if you are looking to dry wood faster. I personally don't use homemade kilns as I am fortunate enough to have the room in my yard to have enough wood to be ahead 3-5 years so I just assume that time is drying out everything just fine since it's top covered and stacked loose enough to get good air flow through the stacks. But I would def recommend the homemade kiln as a pretty sure way to get wood dried faster, especially if you do not have room on your property to allow space for cords and cords of wood to be dried.

 

[bholler]

A guy selling me oak yesterday said that a logger told him if the tree is cut with green leaves on it and the firewood is cut after the leaves have dried up, the oak will only require one years drying under cover until its fit to burn. Is this BS, an old wives tale or is there some truth in it?

I think that claim is nonsense.

 

[BigJ273]

I think that claim is nonsense.

Agreed

 

[stoveliker]

Once the leaves dries, hardly any moisture is transported to the leaves from the trunk because the leave stem and veins stop being able to transport in any significant way. So your kindling from near the leaves will possibly be a bit drier, the trunk will not.

 

[hickoryhoarder]

Doesn't sound solid to me. 24 months is fast for seasoning of oak. I often have splits that need 30-36 months.

Can they be burned after 12 months? Sure. Doesn't mean they're ready.

 

[peakbagger]

I know of old timers who did it but they inevitably would drop in the spring and burn in the fall . Older stoves could burn damper wood (but lots more of it) so they got away with it. IMO, drying does not start until its bucked and preferably split and oak is two year wood.

I drop the trees in late winter before they leaf out as I hate dealing with leaves. I drop them with snowshoes on and try to buck them up on the crust as snow does not dull a chain. I usually leave them bucked up on the ground until the woods dry up and then haul the wood out of the woods. Sometime in early spring before the woods are really dry I take my Fiskars splitter out and split the big rounds in half expecially birch to make it easier to handle and then resplit into smaller pieces at home.

 

[patrickk222]

i couldnt really tell ya to be honest i've heard similar stuff bit alls i know especially when it comes to red oaks its best to cut it up split it and stack as soon as possible and witu most of the red oak that ive bought or even brought in green that got stacked between mid april to early may the latest have been good enough to burn by mid late winter

 

[Sawset]

Birch, maple and poplar are all easily propagated by cuttings. Which means they can transpire water for an extended period even if severed from their roots. Some of that folklore about cutting green may come from Scandinavian regions that have more of those types of trees.
Also, the ideal size they strive for is 6-10" dia., which allows for no or minimal splitting and easy hauling. A 36" dia oak here would get no benefit at all by cutting with leaves on it. That's my guesse.
Something yesterday I did was visit a local distillery where they make burbons and other things alcohol related. The guy said that they lose 3-7% in volume from a barrel while aging 3-6years. 3% of 50 gallons is - 1.5 gallon. In 3 years. White oak barrels. Not much was getting through. Not sure if that would relate to capillary type translocation, but then again, white oak capillaries are plugged, unlike other trees where you can literally blow water through like a straw. Seems to me there was a recent fundme project that created water filtration for impoverished populations by using tree branch sections as straws to filter out impurities. And they weren't using white oak.

 

[Sean in the woods]

I have heard a similar tale from a wood cutter, though with a couple important differences.
1. The tree must be felled when it is beginning to bud new leaves. No later. I think the idea is that the tree continues to put everything into new leaf production, sucking it from what is left in the tree.
2. Oak was not mentioned, one way or the other.

This idea was also mentioned in one of my favorite books Norwegian Wood: Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way by Lars Mytting
“So late winter and early spring are the best times. But even if you’re late getting started, or simply don’t have the time until summer, don’t despair. Even timber that is soaking wet in the early summer dries a lot more quickly than most people realize. It makes sense, however, to use a special technique called bladtørk or syrefelling (leaf-felling, or drying with the leaves on). It’s common in Norway, though not widely used elsewhere. Here the trees are not limbed after felling; they are allowed, rather, to lie for some time with their branches, leaves, and tops intact. The leaves continue to grow and draw sustenance from the trunks, so moisture is transported out of the tree. (Oddly, the leaves will also sprout on deciduous trees that have been felled in the winter, before they have begun to bud.) When this method is used, the level of dampness falls quickly: The moisture content of a tree can fall from 50 percent to 35 percent during the first week. After a few more weeks, depending on the season and the size of the tree, the leaves will have withered. This does not mean that the wood is now ready for burning, as the moisture content will usually be still about 30 percent. The effect is most marked during the first few days, and the process stops completely once the leaves are dry and brown. At this point there is nothing more to be gained by leaving the trees lying, so it is vital to keep an eye on things and have the wood chopped, split, and stacked so that the drying can continue if the wood is to be ready for use the same winter. Evergreens will also continue to draw nutrition from the trunk if allowed to lie with their branches intact, but the process is so slow that there is little practical benefit to be had.”

In general, this seems like it would help drying times of any species of tree. Maybe it would cut a year off oak’s drying time, maybe not.

 

[johneh]

lose 3-7% in volume from a barrel while aging 3-6years.

That my friend is the Angles share
Any good whisky drinker knows that

 

[Sawset]

One thing to note - the saturation moisture content of most woods is around 30% - where the wood fibers are saturated, but the open cells have no free water. Water leaving though the capillaries to the point of saturation of just the fibers (removing the free water) only takes a short amount of time ( weeks/months). It's the additional drying, down to the equilibrium moisture content (emc) that can take longer (months/years). Some trees dry to emc quickly (cherry, elm, poplar), some take a very long time (locust, oak). Using the leaves to help pull water out would remove the free water quicker. But it would be effecting that stage of the process only, not the longer dry down time.

 

[peakbagger]

The way it was described to me, the free water in the wood is in the capillaries which are long thin straws. That water comes out quick. The bound water is captured in walls of the straws and the rest of the wood structure. The free water comes out quick but the bound water has to come out via diffusion. If its kiln dried, the bound water is turned into vapor which diffuses through the cell walls quicker. Diffusion occurs in all directions but its related to how permeable the layer is and the depth of layer. Folks who dry wood want slow drying to prevent splitting and intentionally seal the end grain so the moisture has to leave the face of the wood. The rule of thumb for air drying is 1 inch thickness per year. Wood burners do not care abut splitting and regard edge checking as a sign of dry wood, so they do not seal the end grain intentionally. Therefore they rely on the capillaries that are cut on the end grain to allow the moisture exit deeper in the log.

The unknowns are that trees have different free water contents over the course of the year. In order to survive subfreezing conditions, the free moisture is bound up in chemical compounds that acts as antifreeze in winter. As temps rise the antifreeze is diluted with water that come up from the roots.

 

[brenndatomu]

Complete BS...in PA green Oak will need 3 years to be right, leaves or not.

 

[stoveliker]

The way it was described to me, the free water in the wood is in the capillaries which are long thin straws. That water comes out quick. The bound water is captured in walls of the straws and the rest of the wood structure. The free water comes out quick but the bound water has to come out via diffusion. If its kiln dried, the bound water is turned into vapor which diffuses through the cell walls quicker. Diffusion occurs in all directions but its related to how permeable the layer is and the depth of layer. Folks who dry wood want slow drying to prevent splitting and intentionally seal the end grain so the moisture has to leave the face of the wood. The rule of thumb for air drying is 1 inch thickness per year. Wood burners do not care abut splitting and regard edge checking as a sign of dry wood, so they do not seal the end grain intentionally. Therefore they rely on the capillaries that are cut on the end grain to allow the moisture exit deeper in the log.

The unknowns are that trees have different free water contents over the course of the year. In order to survive subfreezing conditions, the free moisture is bound up in chemical compounds that acts as antifreeze in winter. As temps rise the antifreeze is diluted with water that come up from the roots.

The point is that leaves stop having the ability to shed water very soon when they are drying, and leaves therefore do not have a significant contribution to drying of anything but branches close to them.
Kiln drying does not turn bound water into vapor - the wood would explode (as vapor has a 100s of times higher volume than liquid). Kiln drying provides a low relative humidity outside the wood (i.e. a new equilibrium that moves water to outside of the wood in order to make the relative humidities inside and outside the same) and provides faster diffusion inside the wood because diffusion becomes exponentially faster with temperature.

I do think the water content of the wood as it varies with seasons may be influential.

Interesting study described here (the original paper is behind a paywall):

Watching Wood Dry

Combining x-ray and MRI techniques leads to a microscopic explanation for the process by which water escapes from wood.

physics.aps.org

 

[Solarguy3500]

When I bought my Gransfors Bruk splitting axe, it came with a booklet called The Axe Book which has info about GBA, their axes and also general info about cutting, splitting and stacking firewood. On one page, there is a paragraph that describes this method of cutting wood when the leaves are on the tree, preferably right after it has leafed out, and then holding off limbing and cutting it up until the leaves have withered, reasoning that a lot of water evaporates through the leaves.

I don't know how much truth there is to it, but it's one more source of this information.

 

[stoveliker]

Of course it won't hurt to do this. Whether it helps sufficiently to notice it is the question.

 

[Woodspliter]

I disagree with a three year season time oak depending on when it cut and stacked. I got a nice load of oak last winter cut and split stacked it and it was at 18% that fall. Granted we had a long hot dry summer

 

[johneh]

I cut my firewood in the winter
it is bucked and split in April
stacked in the sun not covered
and it will be at 18 to 20 % by
mid-september. Been that way
for the last 42 years
3 years to dry total BS
But I would guess that it depends where you live

 

[brenndatomu]

Well, for you guys that claim to be able to dry green Oak down to 20% MC (internal) in a year, congrats, but that is not the norm is many/most locals...have you ever compared 1 yo, 2 yo, and 3 yo Oak? Its gets better every year...honestly I think sometimes it even improves a bit more after 3 years too...

 

[Woodsplitter67]

To answerthe original question the answer is no, your not going from green to dry in 1 or less year. Especially if your purchasing the wood from a seller. That wood your getting has been sitting outside sinceis been split with rain and what ever other liquid that has fallen on it.
I think there is some benefit from falling a tree with leaves and letting it sit. Im on the scavenge and looking to score wood all the time. I take local wood that the trees have blown over, I also cut standing live trees. I do think that the trees that have fallen and have leaves on them are a little dryer then trees that are fallen and cut up that day. I dont think its really reasonable to believethat your going to shave 12 months off your seasoning time though. I think that if your processingthe wood your self and stacking right away vs letting the splits sit in a pile untill its sold, you would be better off and probably reap any benefits from the loss of moisture from a tree that was downed with the leaves on it. I dont think that its a reasonable expectation for a tree to be dropped at say 48% mc have the leaves suck out 20% of that mc and have it dry the rest after it sat in a pile trying to season left outside un covered

 

[SpaceBus]

Letting the leaves dry and fall off is really just an easy way to not have to deal with the leaves if they were on the tree when you felled it.

 

[kborndale]

I cut my firewood in the winter
it is bucked and split in April
stacked in the sun not covered
and it will be at 18 to 20 % by
mid-september. Been that way
for the last 42 years
3 years to dry total BS
But I would guess that it depends where you live

What kind of wood are you talking about? Yes, where you live matters. Warmer, dryer, windier areas will season faster than cold wet still areas, but wood species matters even more. Softwoods can be split in April and burnt that winter. Not gonna happen with oak.