DS Stoves 200-10 Ecomiser furnace

[Lcback]

I'm thinking about buying this furnace this year.
It seems to have everything I want.
74% epa rated efficiency, can burn wood, Bit, and Anthricite coal. Full shaker grates, full size ash pan, and the manual says it can be burned in the event of a power outage.

I can't find much about this furnace online besides it's specs. I have emailed the company about some questions, they responded that they would get me all the answers on Monday.

I'm wondering if any of you are familiar with it. Or can take a look for me and give me your opinion.
(broken link removed to http://woodstoves.net/ds-stoves/coal/ds-machine-stoves-200-10-ecomiser-wood-and-coal-furnace.htm)


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[Lake Girl]

Your local building inspector and homeowner's insurance may give you grief as it is not certified warnock hersey or UL. While it is stated that it meets appropriate safety listings, it is not certified by a third party testing facility that it does...

 

[Lcback]

Hmm website says it is ul listed. Is there something else?

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[Lake Girl]

The specs don't mention that and the owner manual only says it meets the standard. There would be a metal plate on the back if it is certified. Have you seen it in person or just website shopping?

There is a metal tag on the back but the picture doesn't show what info it contains...

 

[Lcback]

So far just web. There is a dealer hour and a half from me. I can call him and ask him to look

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[Lake Girl]

No match found here using variations of D. S. Machine Shop or Stoves
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...ce=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database

 

[Lake Girl]

Warnock Hersey Intertek is the usual certification for wood/pellet stoves/furnaces. They don't appear to have a searchable listing though...
http://www.intertek.com/certification/

Intertek listings ... not there either
(broken link removed)

 

[bholler]

Most ds stoves are not listed but a couple are I do not know about that one. I will say from what I have seen there build quality is very good but their design and engineering is pretty lacking. I work on several of their stoves and every one has some pretty major design flaws. I cannot comment on this particular one because I have yet to work on one but I would be cautions.

 

[Lcback]

Most ds stoves are not listed but a couple are I do not know about that one. I will say from what I have seen there build quality is very good but their design and engineering is pretty lacking. I work on several of their stoves and every one has some pretty major design flaws. I cannot comment on this particular one because I have yet to work on one but I would be cautions.

Have you worked on any of the kozy long models? I understand this Ecomiser is one of the smaller kozy king with all the electronics taken off.

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[bholler]

Have you worked on any of the kozy long models? I understand this Ecomiser is one of the smaller kozy king with all the electronics taken off.

No we really don't work on allot of furnaces most of our customers use regular freestanding wood stoves. Sorry I cant help you with furnace selection very much. My real expertise is on the chimney side of the install.

 

[Lcback]

Playing phone tag with the dealer. He says it is indeed ul listed. And the air is all manual. I don't think he understood what bi metallic switch I was talking about. But before I buy one I will have to drive up and take a look.
Still haven't heard of there maximum draft to have.

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[Lake Girl]

He says it is indeed ul listed.

Under what name?

 

[Lcback]

He didn't say. I'll call him Tuesday and ask him to check. Because I can't find them on the UL
He did say many of there stoves are ul listed, so it's probably a name we don't know about.

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[Lcback]

Okay,
I asked the DS stove dealer about air intake, he said it was all manual. And that was all he knew. Then I got an email from woodstoves.net answering some of my questions. They said the air was controlled with a Bi-metallic spring on the right side of the stove.
Im not sure how you are supposed to regulate the air. But I guess a combination of the 4 door spinners and the bi-metallic spring setting?

She said there is not Barometric damper needed for burning wood, but they recommend one for coal, set to .25WC
I am still trying to find out about UL listing. The dealer message was simply that it was indeed listed, not who its under. So I replied to my woodstoves.net rep asking them if they could provide that.
I still like the looks of this unit, Wood and anthracite at 75% is pretty darn awesome. Also made in my home state of PA. But i want to get everything straight before I pay.

 

[bholler]

They are right you do not want a baro damper for wood unless absolutely necessary. I would seriously doubt their claim of 75% efficiency for wood though.

 

[Lcback]

Well it doesn't seem to matter. If it's under $3,000 someone says something is wrong. Last one said that a chamber without secondary air wouldn't. This one has a both and you doubt it. Its epa certified that's good enough for me. WhY do you think they are lying?
I can't spend anymore then 2,000 and I'm not buying something that can't burn coal at all. That option is important to me.

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[bholler]

WhY do you think they are lying?

Because I have worked on many of their stoves and their engineering is absolutely horrible. I think it is probably a decent hand fired coal furnace it is the wood part that I question. They basically took an old coal furnace design and slapped a couple secondary burn tubes in there that from what I can see have no where near enough volume to burn off the amount of smoke that a firebox that size will produce. Honestly there are very few wood coal combos that do both well at all. Most are decent coal stoves but crap wood stoves.

 

[Lcback]

Interesting. The coal guys say the same thing but opposite. As far as the good wood stoves make crap coal stoves. What you want is a good coal stove that can burn wood. Thats what they say. Hmmmm guess I gotta take a chance on one way

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[bholler]

Yes a good wood stove will make a crap coal stove. And a good coal stove will make a crap wood stove. The two fuels just need very different things to burn correctly so combo units in most cases don't work well.

 

[maple1]

EPA certified?

I am quite skeptical of that.

 

[Lcback]

EPA certified?

I am quite skeptical of that.

Well I'm pretty confident that to advertise and number they have to be officially tested. Unless they specify exempt. At least that's what the Shelter customer rep said when I asked why they don't have a number for theirs. He said it's cheapest to just apply for exemption.
Ds does not hide there numbers. Look at the kozy king models for example.

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[bholler]

Well I'm pretty confident that to advertise and number they have to be officially tested. Unless they specify exempt. At least that's what the Shelter customer rep said when I asked why they don't have a number for theirs. He said it's cheapest to just apply for exemption.

I can not find a single thing in any of their literature that claims an epa certification. Which means that that number could have come from any sort of testing procedure.

 

[maple1]

My thoughts also. After all the months of looking for a new wood burner 4-5 years ago when I was in the same decision making place (and what has happened since w.r.t. EPA 'stuff'), I think any other manufacturer with an actual EPA Certification or a 'genuine' efficiency testing number would also be posting the actual paperwork from those or parts of it - they are not to be taken lightly, are hard to get, and would be something to be quite proud of. Even if the DS is a great working unit, I am thinking that part of their PR are sales gimmicks. IMO. If they can't provide copies of EPA Certification or efficiency testing results to a prospective customer, as opposed to just posting a number, I see red flags.

Also, efficiency testing has nothing to do with EPA testing or certification - as far as I know. Which one could say is another byproduct of 'fuzzy' PR - posting a % efficiency number is misleading to some who then think that is a connection to EPA stuff.

 

[Lcback]

So yesterday I asked the rep about it stating it is UL listed, and that I couldn't find it on the ul database. She responded saying "The furnace is listed to UL1482 standards. What type of list are you looking at?"
Does that make sense to you guys?

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[Lake Girl]

Built to the UL standard but not certified? If there is no certification associated with the stove, may cause grief with inspection and insurance...

Need to see certification documents - most stove manufacturers include that documentation in the manual and I didn't see it in their manuals.

Not trying to cause you extra grief, just trying to save you from making a costly mistake...