Educate me on liners for my insert

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So I picked up a Enviro boston 1700 for my house. I had a thread on that here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/picking-up-a-enviro-boston-1700-tomorrow.175081/

Thanks for all information on whether or not i need a liner. So as I research liners and install costs, I want to understand what I should get.
Looking at some of the recommended links like woodlanddirect.com and rockfordchimneysupply.com there are a ton of options - 304 vs 316 steel, heavy flex vs easy flex, welded vs crimped, etc.
One local company uses M-Flex exclusively and when I research that, there is smooth wall upgrade available!
Another company says their liner installation runs from 1800-3000! They will price it when they see it.
I can also buy locally Selkirk 6" 35' pipe for 799 and 225 for a wrap kit.

To try an zero in on my best options, I should figure out what I need and then determine who can/will install it and determine if I should DIY it based on costs, etc.

So any advice on the myriad of options, what upgrades are worth it??

Thanks!
Joe

 

[begreen]

Avoid two ply smooth wall and go with medium or heavy flex for longevity.

 

[bholler]

304 is all you need for wood but 316 is fine as well but it is a more expensive alloy that you don't need. Heavy wall liner is just that it is made from thicker material usually about 3x as thick. The way it is constructed also makes it much smoother than regular single ply lightwall. There are also mid weight liners which are constructed the same as the heavy wall just with thinner metal but still twice as thick as light wall. They are a good option. The only one I would recommend completely avoiding is the 2 ply light wall smooth interior pipe. It just is not very durable at all.

What size is the flue for your fireplace?

 

[jpcjguy]

304 is all you need for wood but 316 is fine as well but it is a more expensive alloy that you don't need. Heavy wall liner is just that it is made from thicker material usually about 3x as thick. The way it is constructed also makes it much smoother than regular single ply lightwall. There are also mid weight liners which are constructed the same as the heavy wall just with thinner metal but still twice as thick as light wall. They are a good option. The only one I would recommend completely avoiding is the 2 ply light wall smooth interior pipe. It just is not very durable at all.

What size is the flue for your fireplace?

Just had my chimney cleaned. They said it is a 12" flue - so I should have no problems with a 6" kit. I asked them about installing a liner for me.
WOW
6" stainless steel flex liner (non-insulated) = $1207.50
Parts kit for furnace flue or stove top including cap = $476.30
Liner installation = $1250
Grand total = $2,933.80 - but would give me %10 off so = $2640.42!!
I think not...

Looking at the https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com kit for 1155. 35' pre-insulated with top plate, etc.
Any other suppliers you can recommend?

Thanks

 

[bholler]

Just had my chimney cleaned. They said it is a 12" flue - so I should have no problems with a 6" kit. I asked them about installing a liner for me.
WOW
6" stainless steel flex liner (non-insulated) = $1207.50
Parts kit for furnace flue or stove top including cap = $476.30
Liner installation = $1250
Grand total = $2,933.80 - but would give me %10 off so = $2640.42!!
I think not...

Looking at the https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com kit for 1155. 35' pre-insulated with top plate, etc.
Any other suppliers you can recommend?

Thanks

That is cheaper than I would be for a 35' insert install. But if I did it it would be insulated with a block off plate and a damper at 35'

 

[jpcjguy]

That is cheaper than I would be for a 35' insert install. But if I did it it would be insulated with a block off plate and a damper at 35'

I can understand that - insulated and a custom damper plate. But none of that is included...

 

[bholler]

I can understand that - insulated and a custom damper plate. But none of that is included...

Those thing only add about $500 on a job where there is plenty of room for insulation.

 

[Hogwildz]

You also have the option of insulated double wall rigid. Already insulated between the shells No added insulation needed, comes sections that rivet together. No, it is not the double wall flex crap, that you don't want. I have the rigid and love it. The only flex you would need is at the bottom through the smoke shelf to the insert.

Re: the pricing they gave you...
6" stainless steel flex liner (non-insulated) = $1207.50 BS
Parts kit for furnace flue or stove top including cap = $476.30 Depend exactly what you are getting for that price.
Liner installation = $1250 Given that large a flue to flue to go down, seems a bit steep, but it's what every you are willing to pay. Hope that includes sliding insert in and hooking up.
Grand total = $2,933.80 - but would give me %10 off so = $2640.42!!

Can be done DIY for about 1/2 the cost.

 

[bholler]

You also have the option of insulated double wall rigid. Already insulated between the shells No added insulation needed, comes sections that rivet together. No, it is not the double wall flex crap, that you don't want. I have the rigid and love it. The only flex you would need is at the bottom through the smoke shelf to the insert.

If the chimney is straight that is an option. But i personally wouldnt wat to have to rivet together 35' of liner while holding up the section already in the chimney. Been there dont that and not doing it again.

 

[jpcjguy]

You also have the option of insulated double wall rigid. Already insulated between the shells No added insulation needed, comes sections that rivet together. No, it is not the double wall flex crap, that you don't want. I have the rigid and love it. The only flex you would need is at the bottom through the smoke shelf to the insert.

Thanks for the option - do you have a brand/link I can take a look at?

 

[Hogwildz]

If the chimney is straight that is an option. But i personally wouldnt wat to have to rivet together 35' of liner while holding up the section already in the chimney. Been there dont that and not doing it again.

Simple, did exactly that by myself. A pc of romex wire wrapped around the sections in the flue, rivet next pc in place, loosen romex, lower & repeat. Not hard at all.

 

[bholler]

Simple, did exactly that by myself. A pc of romex wire wrapped around the sections in the flue, rivet next pc in place, loosen romex, lower & repeat. Not hard at all.

No but just dropping a flex liner is much easier and faster with just as much durability if it is heavywall. Nothing against rigid it is a good liner i just dont like installing them

 

[Hogwildz]

Thanks for the option - do you have a brand/link I can take a look at?

I used Duraliner. I found it easier than installing flex also, no 35' pc to wrestle around with, twisting & turning to get it down the old flue. Can go easy, or be a big PITA. If you do go flex, either get extra and make a cone on the end to pull it with, or buy the pulling cone attachment.

https://www.ventingpipe.com/chimney-liners-all-fuels/c14302?f3309=duravent&f3364=rigid liner&f3365=round&r=48&s=SCORE&p=1&categoryId=14302

https://www.build.com/duravent-rigid-liner/c112971

http://www.duravent.com/Product.aspx?hProduct=6

 

[bholler]

I used Duraliner. I found it easier than installing flex also, no 35' pc to wrestle around with, twisting & turning to get it down the old flue. Can go easy, or be a big PITA. If you do go flex, either get extra and make a cone on the end to pull it with, or buy the pulling cone attachment.

https://www.ventingpipe.com/chimney-liners-all-fuels/c14302?f3309=duravent&f3364=rigid liner&f3365=round&r=48&s=SCORE&p=1&categoryId=14302

https://www.build.com/duravent-rigid-liner/c112971

http://www.duravent.com/Product.aspx?hProduct=6

What grade of stainless do they use on the interior and exterior?

 

[Hogwildz]

No but just dropping a flex liner is much easier and faster with just as much durability if it is heavywall. Nothing against rigid it is a good liner i just dont like installing them

I found it to be the opposite way around. Both are def good. I just hate having to wrestle with 35' of flex bending and hanging, and usually having to twist it around to get it to clear mortar ooze etc. Making a cone or out of the end, or using a cone puller is def easier, but can still be a pita at times. For a one man job, I am glad I did the rigid. I like the way it sweeps also. The only part that sucks is going through the flex at the bottom for me. Of course that is not straight either, going through the smoke shelf and all. I guess everyone has their likes & dislikes. Not that I dislike either, I myself am just happy with the rigid in my case. A good quality liner is what is important. Not some cheap thin thing that tears like tin foil.

 

[Hogwildz]

What grade of stainless do they use on the interior and exterior?

304 stainless steel inner and galvalume outer. I am not sure these days, but I seem to remember being able to get S.S. on both shells, but being it was interior of the olf flue, I went with the SS/galvalume. There is a small amount of galvalume exposed at top out of the old chimney, but is is just as the day I installed in in 2006. With the exception of some soot from burning & wind.

 

[bholler]

I found it to be the opposite way around. Both are def good. I just hate having to wrestle with 35' of flex bending and hanging, and usually having to twist it around to get it to clear mortar ooze etc. Making a cone or out of the end, or using a cone puller is def easier, but can still be a pita at times. For a one man job, I am glad I did the rigid. I like the way it sweeps also. The only part that sucks is going through the flex at the bottom for me. Of course that is not straight either, going through the smoke shelf and all. I guess everyone has their likes & dislikes. Not that I dislike either, I myself am just happy with the rigid in my case. A good quality liner is what is important. Not some cheap thin thing that tears like tin foil.

Like i said it is a good liner as long as it is the right alloy. Just not for me. And no i dont use the thin stuff for wood either.

 

[bholler]

304 stainless steel inner and galvalume outer. I am not sure these days, but I seem to remember being able to get S.S. on both shells, but being it was interior of the olf flue, I went with the SS/galvalume. There is a small amount of galvalume exposed at top out of the old chimney, but is is just as the day I installed in in 2006. With the exception of some soot from burning & wind.

The galvalume exterior would concern me. Even if the flue is cleaned readdly well there are still corrosives in it and you will have some condensation. What happens when that shell corrodes? Maybe my concerns are unfounded but i would not be comfortable with it. I am glad to hear they are using 304 interior not 430 like some of their chimneys though.

 

[Hogwildz]

The galvalume exterior would concern me. Even if the flue is cleaned readdly well there are still corrosives in it and you will have some condensation. What happens when that shell corrodes? Maybe my concerns are unfounded but i would not be comfortable with it. I am glad to hear they are using 304 interior not 430 like some of their chimneys though.

If/when the s.s. inner shell rots, time to replace the piping. I have not issues inner or outer since 2006. 304 is 304, just as much chance for flex or rigid to rot over time I would guess. The outer shell sees nothing accept for the top out of the old flue, and there is not a spec of even surface rust on that. I am sure the insulation helps with condensation etc. At 13 years now, I am happy with it's performance and longevity at this point. Even if I had to replace at 20 yrs, which it does not look like yet, I have no complaints. At least I know there is no chance of it ever unraveling due to any overzealous sweeping. Except the flex at the bottom of course. Not saying all flex does that, but not even a concern for me, and I like less concerns. All is good in the world of wood burning.

 

[Hogwildz]

I've been debating over the years whether I wanted to paint the outer shell that shows up top. But at this point, I would have to scrub the soot off it, and don't really trust paint to last very long regardless of what kind. Also, feel paint traps moisture, and just gives an avenue for rot underneath. Seen it with wood siding all the time.

 

[bholler]

If/when the s.s. inner shell rots, time to replace the piping. I have not issues inner or outer since 2006. 304 is 304, just as much chance for flex or rigid to rot over time I would guess. The outer shell sees nothing accept for the top out of the old flue, and there is not a spec of even surface rust on that. I am sure the insulation helps with condensation etc. At 13 years now, I am happy with it's performance and longevity at this point. Even if I had to replace at 20 yrs, which it does not look like yet, I have no complaints. At least I know there is no chance of it ever unraveling due to any overzealous sweeping. Except the flex at the bottom of course. Not saying all flex does that, but not even a concern for me, and I like less concerns. All is good in the world of wood burning.

The interior should be fine for wood for a long time it is the exterior that concerns me. But like i said my concerns may be completly unfounded. And good heavywall doesnt unravel. Lightwall can for sure.

 

[bholler]

I've been debating over the years whether I wanted to paint the outer shell that shows up top. But at this point, I would have to scrub the soot off it, and don't really trust paint to last very long regardless of what kind. Also, feel paint traps moisture, and just gives an avenue for rot underneath. Seen it with wood siding all the time.

I wouldnt paint it. It wont hold up well and will just look like crap in a year or 2

 

[Hogwildz]

If I do anything, I may make a nice copper casing for it. But that is way on the bottom of my project list, an may never get done.

 

[begreen]

I'd watch out for dielectric corrosion with a copper jacket. FWIW, the galvalume chimney pipe we have on the greenhouse still looks good after almost 10 years.