Efficiency improvement quest

[Slimdusty]

Hello

 

[bholler]

Hello?

 

[Slimdusty]

First off, thank you all for this site, i have found it to be very informative and helpful.
My situation- 2200 square foot ranch house with oil heat as primary heat source. Exterior wall masonry fireplace that I installed a wood insert, several years ago. Lopi medium flush insert, I generally like the insert but I find myself wondering if I should be getting more heat out of it. I burn wood almost all of the time and use the oil furnace as backup. In mid winter, house temps rarely get past 70 degrees, mid sixties in far back bedrooms. I have to push the stove hard to maintain these temps. What i am seeking is other tips, ideas, burning habits, to get more heat out of my insert and longer burn times. Please ask away as I know that you experts need more information. Thank you

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Do you have a block off plate to keep heat from going up your chimney?

What temperature is your stove running at?

How is the insulation and more importantly, air sealing on your house?

 

[TomMcDonald]

I was in your predicament a while back. Sold the insert and installed a freestanding stove and am kicking myself for not going that route in the first place.

 

[Todd]

Does your insert have a blower?

 

[kborndale]

What is the moisture content of your wood? How long do you season the wood before burning it?

 

[Slimdusty]

Do you have a block off plate to keep heat from going up your chimney?

What temperature is your stove running at?

How is the insulation and more importantly, air sealing on your house?

I do have a block off plate, also a ss liner full length to top of chimney. I do not have any insulation above block off plate or the liner.

I can’t give you a temperature as i have not installed a thermometer.

My house is sealed ok, not great. 1960’s construction 2x4 framing, original windows which I am currently replacing as time and money allow.

 

[Slimdusty]

Does your insert have a blower?

Yes, i use the blower, without the blower performance would be very poor with it being a flush install.

 

[Slimdusty]

What is the moisture content of your wood? How long do you season the wood before burning it?

Wood is all good and dry, less than 20%. I mostly cut dead and down wood in winter, then burn the following winter.

 

[moresnow]

Where is the insert located? At one end by chance?
Have you tried moving floor level air from the cooler parts of the home towards the insert?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Not knowing the temperature you’re running at is tough to get around. The solution may be as simple as running the stove a bit hotter to get more heat into the house.

Fixing insulation and such will help hold more heat in regardless of the heat source.

 

[Slimdusty]

Not knowing the temperature you’re running at is tough to get around. The solution may be as simple as running the stove a bit hotter to get more heat into the house.

Fixing insulation and such will help hold more heat in regardless of the heat source.

Ok, i can work on getting a thermometer installed. Question is, where is it best to install the thermometer in my case, being a flush mount setup? Flu collar? Also any recommendations for thermometers?

 

[Slimdusty]

Where is the insert located? At one end by chance?
Have you tried moving floor level air from the cooler parts of the home towards the insert?

Yep, located at one end of house. I have not tried moving cooler air towards the insert, i can try that this coming burning season, thank you. I have used the furnace fan for recirculating air throughout the house but that pulls the temps down in our living area as it is also recirculating air in the basement, which we don’t normally heat. Basement is about 1800 sq. ft, we normally don’t heat it and it maintains temps of around 55-60, which is fine for our situation. I dont think the basement factors much into struggling to heat the upstairs with the insert?

I was in your predicament a while back. Sold the insert and installed a freestanding stove and am kicking myself for not going that route in the first place.

this is what I am afraid of lol! I question if I simply dont have enough stove/heat output for my square footage?

 

[begreen]

There are several things working to a disadvantage here. Combined, they can make 24/7 heating with wood a challenge.

• The flush insert does not radiate much heat and needs the convection blower running
• The stove is undersized for the area being heated
• A shallow firebox requires E/W loading so the full capacity can not be utilized without fear of a log rolling up against the glass
• Some heat loss due to an exterior fireplace with no insulation behind the insert or above the block-off plate
• Ranch-style home presenting heat distribution problems

These issues are not uncommon. You may be doing the best you can in the circumstances. Search for threads on "moving the heat" and on "ranch home" for ideas on improving distribution. The furnace ductwork is likely losing heat if it is uninsulated in a cold basement.
For more even heat in the house put a table or box fan at the far end of the hallway, placed on the floor, pointing toward the woodstove. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. Running this way you should notice at least a 5F increase in the hallway temp after about 30 minutes running.

 

[EbS-P]

Ok, i can work on getting a thermometer installed. Question is, where is it best to install the thermometer in my case, being a flush mount setup? Flu collar? Also any recommendations for thermometers?

I really like my Auber at 200 thermometer alarm. I’ve drilled a small hole in the appliance adapter for the thermal couple probe.

 

[Slimdusty]

There are several things working to a disadvantage here. Combined, they can make 24/7 heating with wood a challenge.

• The flush insert does not radiate much heat and needs the convection blower running
• The stove is undersized for the area being heated
• A shallow firebox requires E/W loading so the full capacity can not be utilized without fear of a log rolling up against the glass
• Some heat loss due to an exterior fireplace with no insulation behind the insert or above the block-off plate
• Ranch-style home presenting heat distribution problems

These issues are not uncommon. You may be doing the best you can in the circumstances. Search for threads on "moving the heat" and on "ranch home" for ideas on improving distribution. The furnace ductwork is likely losing heat if it is uninsulated in a cold basement.
For more even heat in the house put a table or box fan at the far end of the hallway, placed on the floor, pointing toward the woodstove. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. Running this way you should notice at least a 5F increase in the hallway temp after about 30 minutes running.

Thank you begreen, I will try the fan in hallway this season. Regarding the insulation- I could pull my liner, wrap with insulation and insulate the top side of my block off plate without too much trouble. My chimney length is on the short side, about 14.5’. Could I expect a noticeable return on this? I am open to most ideas, short of replacing the insert.

 

[Slimdusty]

I really like my Auber at 200 thermometer alarm. I’ve drilled a small hole in the appliance adapter for the thermal couple probe.

Thank you, I’ll look into this.

 

[EbS-P]

Thank you begreen, I will try the fan in hallway this season. Regarding the insulation- I could pull my liner, wrap with insulation and insulate the top side of my block off plate without too much trouble. My chimney length is on the short side, about 14.5’. Could I expect a noticeable return on this? I am open to most ideas, short of replacing the insert.

I doubt insulating the liner will put more heat into the house.

I heat with an undersized stove once the outside temps start to drop ( but it’s perfectly sized for 85% of the time)
A couple of observations. Moisture content matters. Wood species Matters, wood size (length and split size) matters. And how you pack the stove. How you run the the matters. Each one of those variable when optimized could theoretically increase the output by 5-10%. If you had a bigger stove these would still apply but you wouldn’t care. Pick one at a time and see what you can accomplish. But without some temperature readings it’s all guess work.

 

[Highbeam]

Yep, located at one end of house. I have not tried moving cooler air towards the insert, i can try that this coming burning season, thank you. I have used the furnace fan for recirculating air throughout the house but that pulls the temps down in our living area as it is also recirculating air in the basement, which we don’t normally heat. Basement is about 1800 sq. ft, we normally don’t heat it and it maintains temps of around 55-60, which is fine for our situation. I dont think the basement factors much into struggling to heat the upstairs with the insert?

this is what I am afraid of lol! I question if I simply dont have enough stove/heat output for my square footage?

Okay so actually a 4000 SF home, 60s construction out west means very little insulation. Mine is 1963 and had R5 in the walls, nothing below, about R13 in the attic, and single pane aluminum framed windows that would frost on the inside! Then you're heating with a flush "medium" insert, noncat, from upstairs with a short and cold chimney on one end of the home.

Are you eastern WA out in the desert with wind or western WA in a more moderate climate?

Either way, flush inserts are low on delivered efficiency and your home is large. My 1963 home had the biggest Lopi insert in a masonry fireplace, a freedom bay, and it was tough to keep my single story 1700SF warm. I replaced windows, insulated everything but the walls, and ripped out that masonry fireplace to install a much smaller freestanding stove and we were much warmer.

In your shoes, and I sort of was, I would prioritize the insulation, windows, and air sealing before other things. That will save you money on oil and wood while you consider what new stove you're going to get. With a thermometer you can learn to run that stove hot enough to stay warmer but I wouldn't expect much improvement if you are currently using good fuel.

 

[begreen]

My chimney length is on the short side, about 14.5’. Could I expect a noticeable return on this? I am open to most ideas, short of replacing the insert.

The primary gain would be safety and a cleaner liner. Is there room to put some insulation behind and along the sides of the insert?

 

[Slimdusty]

I doubt insulating the liner will put more heat into the house.

I heat with an undersized stove once the outside temps start to drop ( but it’s perfectly sized for 85% of the time)
A couple of observations. Moisture content matters. Wood species Matters, wood size (length and split size) matters. And how you pack the stove. How you run the the matters. Each one of those variable when optimized could theoretically increase the output by 5-10%. If you had a bigger stove these would still apply but you wouldn’t care. Pick one at a time and see what you can accomplish. But without some temperature readings it’s all guess work.

This is good info., thank you. For clarity, were not freezing in the house, I would say 70% of the time the insert is adequate, but also, nobody is complaining that it’s too hot in the house or no need to crack a window! Just hoping to have a little wider comfort zone per say. I will get a thermometer for this coming season.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

Hello?

I honestly thought of the Lionel Ritchie song when I saw this, lol

 

[Slimdusty]

Okay so actually a 4000 SF home, 60s construction out west means very little insulation. Mine is 1963 and had R5 in the walls, nothing below, about R13 in the attic, and single pane aluminum framed windows that would frost on the inside! Then you're heating with a flush "medium" insert, noncat, from upstairs with a short and cold chimney on one end of the home.

Are you eastern WA out in the desert with wind or western WA in a more moderate climate?

Either way, flush inserts are low on delivered efficiency and your home is large. My 1963 home had the biggest Lopi insert in a masonry fireplace, a freedom bay, and it was tough to keep my single story 1700SF warm. I replaced windows, insulated everything but the walls, and ripped out that masonry fireplace to install a much smaller freestanding stove and we were much warmer.

In your shoes, and I sort of was, I would prioritize the insulation, windows, and air sealing before other things. That will save you money on oil and wood while you consider what new stove you're going to get. With a thermometer you can learn to run that stove hot enough to stay warmer but I wouldn't expect much improvement if you are currently using good fuel

Okay so actually a 4000 SF home, 60s construction out west means very little insulation. Mine is 1963 and had R5 in the walls, nothing below, about R13 in the attic, and single pane aluminum framed windows that would frost on the inside! Then you're heating with a flush "medium" insert, noncat, from upstairs with a short and cold chimney on one end of the home.

Are you eastern WA out in the desert with wind or western WA in a more moderate climate?

Either way, flush inserts are low on delivered efficiency and your home is large. My 1963 home had the biggest Lopi insert in a masonry fireplace, a freedom bay, and it was tough to keep my single story 1700SF warm. I replaced windows, insulated everything but the walls, and ripped out that masonry fireplace to install a much smaller freestanding stove and we were much warmer.

In your shoes, and I sort of was, I would prioritize the insulation, windows, and air sealing before other things. That will save you money on oil and wood while you consider what new stove you're going to get. With a thermometer you can learn to run that stove hot enough to stay warmer but I wouldn't expect much improvement if you are currently using good fuel.

Eastern side, with wind. I do have R-13 in walls and 24-30” blown in insulation in attic. Windows are my weak spot for sure. Thanks for the reply

 

[Slimdusty]

The primary gain would be safety and a cleaner liner. Is there room to put some insulation behind and along the sides of the insert?

Safety wise I am good with my setup, and easy enough for me to clean the liner once or twice a season. Behind the insert- I believe it is called a heatilator, ? Something like that anyway. The fireplace brick is shielded with a metal box on the back and sides of fireplace. There is insulation between the metal box and brick, original construction I believe and I left this in place as it is in good condition and cleaned up nicely before installing the insert. Hope my description there is understandable.