Elk !!

[mtalea]

Hey Elk pm me please have a question for ya

 

[kevinmoelk]

Mtalea, don't be surprised if it takes a little time for Elk to get to you. He's a pretty busy guy and I'm sure inundated with PMs and questions. I've got some PM questions sent to him for a few days now. There are LOTS of knowledgeable people here willing to help, so what's your question?

-Kevin

 

[mtalea]

My question is non stove related..its about tyvek house wrap life span

 

[nshif]

If not left exposed to the elements it will outlast most sidings. I have some that has been left exposed ( rain, snow, cold, sun, heat ) for a year and its still in great shape. Ill probably replace it but I dont really think I need to.

 

[kevinmoelk]

I used to be an exterior renovation contractor, specialzing in siding. I've laid many rolls tyvek. I'm not certain of the life span, but I'm sure it is engineered to last a very long time. However, in some applications and under certain conditions tyvek can cause mold damage to sheathing, I've seen it first hand. Granted, this was in the pacific NW, a very wet climate. Also, some siding is not tolerant of tyvek, notably cedar shake. If you are hanging shake, I'd use tar paper. Check with the siding manufacturer if you have any doubts. I personally don't like the stuff. There's a product made by tyco which is a foam panel that insulates and seals, not to mention is perforated, so it wont' create the potential problems associated with tyvek. Also, there are plenty of houses built without tyvek, and they have similar energy performace.

What is your application? New or old construction? Give us some more information.

-Kevin

 

[mtalea]

I am a contractor also......application is siding and it was just a wondering question....I read that it last for max. of 20 years.....if that is the case why use it,go back to felt instead

 

[elkimmeg]

I sent you a pm

I just noticed my PM space is used up so the last day or feew any sent may not have reached me Sorry

 

[Hogwildz]

I am a contractor also......application is siding and it was just a wondering question....I read that it last for max. of 20 years.....if that is the case why use it,go back to felt instead

You ever seen felt burn? I am assuming you meaning tar impregnated roofing felt. Ever take siding off with felt behind it? falls apart like confetti.
Tyvek will last longer than any of us, if covered up.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Hogwildz, I'm really not trying to pick fights with you on the forum, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you are wrong sir. The fact of the matter is that Tyvek has its fair share of problems. It really hasn't been out in the field long enough for proper evaluation. It's not the miracle barrier everyone thinks it is. Tar paper can fall apart, sure, but there are lots of things involved. How long has it been there? What kind of siding protected it? Etc. Besides, distrubing the siding can be the cause of the tar paper falling away, if you weren't tearing off the siding, it would remain intact underneath. I've seen tar paper 30+ years old in just fine condition. To make the blanket statement that it all falls apart is not accurate. In fact, for cedar, I wouldn't use anything but felt.

-Kevin

 

[webbie]

Guy near here has had tyvek as the ONLY siding on the house for almost three years! Amazing......

Yes, my guess is that in regular siding jobs like vinyl that it will last just about forever......but even if it degrades, would that cause problems if the sheathing was installed tightly....

Some builders around here use the siding direct on sheathing - no paper, but I think Elk mentioned that might not be up to code.

I would suppose that test labs can do some pretty accurate destructive testing on this type of stuff.

 

[Hogwildz]

Hogwildz, I'm really not trying to pick fights with you on the forum, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you are wrong sir. The fact of the matter is that Tyvek has its fair share of problems. It really hasn't been out in the field long enough for proper evaluation. It's not the miracle barrier everyone thinks it is. Tar paper can fall apart, sure, but there are lots of things involved. How long has it been there? What kind of siding protected it? Etc. Besides, distrubing the siding can be the cause of the tar paper falling away, if you weren't tearing off the siding, it would remain intact underneath. I've seen tar paper 30+ years old in just fine condition. To make the blanket statement that it all falls apart is not accurate. In fact, for cedar, I wouldn't use anything but felt.

-Kevin

No offense taken. I roofed and sided from my late teens to my mid 30's. I speak from what I have seen. What are your qualifications? You have valid points. I never stated tyvek was a cure all. But this I assure you. Tyvek does not burn like a ball of fire if it by chance comes in contact with flame. Light a pc of tar paper and tell me what you observe? Ever see it? I have several times. Try tearing tyvek with your hands, then felt. You tell me which one tears, and which one won't? How long has Tyvek been around 10- 20 yrs? Honestly I am not sure when it came out, or when it became popular.
I am not even advocating one over another. I know on my house I'd use tyvek or another newer style wrap. Felt is just old school, at least for siding.
Tar paper is also not as pliable as tyvec and other house wraps. It creases and is weak at that crease when you turn a 90 degree angle with it.
Now no argument from me that 30lb felt is better than 15lb felt. Yes it will last long if undisturbed (sometimes). But, how many older houses have you seen that don't have roofing or siding rework done on them? Sooner or later it will be disturbed. On cedar roofing I used 30lb felt. Agreed with you there. I have also used no felt. I have also used copper, when specified and someone wants to pay for that. Please tell me you don't advocate painting cedar? No need to explain that one.
To each their own, my reasoning is this, if tar paper (felt) was so great, why would the newer house wraps even be needed? Because things improve with time & modern advances. Why wouldn't tar paper still be as popular as in the older days?
There is no right or wrong, just preferences & budgets.
I have worked on homes from anywhere from 1700's to 2000's.Although not every house that has felt on the walls has deteriorated felt. The older homes from the felt era on, when you disturb the felt, which in time you will have to, its crumbles. That tar only lasts so long , and it does dry out in time. I honestly don't care for felt because I have had to clean up that deteriorated mess, having it blow all over me, the yard and neighborhood of houses I have worked on. On a windy day, forget it.
for every home you show me that has undisturbed felt. I'll show you 10 that have a felt mess all over the yard after pulling siding/roofing off.
The only thing worse is the old rosin paper they used before felt. Which I still used putting down hand formed standing seam roofs.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[coldinnj]

There are materials to be used as a vapor barrier under siding that are engineered properly. When installed correctly they will allow the moisture to escape out from it but will not let the moisture come in from the outside. On the idea of a one way valve. At one time Tyvek was suppossed to do that. I do not know if it currently made that way. Remeber a happy medium must be used to make a house tight BUT not to tight. Tyvek when used properly is a good material. However many contractors do not use it properly. Simple READ the Manufacturers instructions.
Many holmes are done with a vapor barrier on the insulation on the inside and then with a vapor barrier on the outside under the final sheathing surface. Think... Double Vapor barrier???? Is this Good?

 

[GVA]

Damn I hate to go here but I would say If you're gonna put vinyl siding up go Tyvek..... If you are using cedar whether it be clapboards or shakes go for the tarpaper.
IMO the vinyl has holes intentionally put there which allow penetration to the underlayment and the tarpaper would degrade quicker...

 

[coldinnj]

Ah Hogwildz
My favorite roof of all...
The best roof of all...
The longest lasting roof of all...
The most cost effective roof of all...
SLATE
Of course this is IMHO
But cared for with normal maintenance - couple of hundred years is not impossible. Just don't insulate up against it. Don't coat it. Let it breathe. And if a person doesn't know how to walk a slate roof then tell him to keep the f**k off of it.
As to cost wise, we had a pretty good price on getting it. We bought it directly from the quarries where it was made / cut.
Anyone have an old Parsons cutter laying around?

 

[Hogwildz]

There are materials to be used as a vapor barrier under siding that are engineered properly. When installed correctly they will allow the moisture to escape out from it but will not let the moisture come in from the outside. On the idea of a one way valve. At one time Tyvek was suppossed to do that. I do not know if it currently made that way. Remeber a happy medium must be used to make a house tight BUT not to tight. Tyvek when used properly is a good material. However many contractors do not use it properly. Simple READ the Manufacturers instructions.
Many holmes are done with a vapor barrier on the insulation on the inside and then with a vapor barrier on the outside under the final sheathing surface. Think... Double Vapor barrier???? Is this Good?

The insulation has a craft paper facing., the sheathing has the wrap on the outer face. This is standard. Too tight can be a bad thing. And also in concern is with a true double vapor barrier setup,(never done one btw) if moisture/water etc gets in between somehow via roof leak, widow leak etc. It may get trapped between the layers. Not good.

 

[kevinmoelk]

I think we're more in agreement than not Hogwildz. Every material has its strengths and weaknesses. Plenty of homes have been built without even tar paper. I just hate when folks think that they have to put tyvek over everything, when it really depends on the application at hand. I'm not a fan of it primarily from what I saw as a contractor. A majority of the jobs I did were re-siding homes that were built with the first generation LP T-111. In Portland, OR, T-111 would grow mushrooms on it. Tearing that off exposed tyvek, and underneath the tyvek was black mold on the sheathing. It's a hard pill to swallow for a homeowner when you tell them they need new sheating and it's going to cost an extra few thousand dollars. Not to mention in the process of replacing your sheathing some drywall might crack. I always warned customers up front about anything I find wrong needs to be fixed or no warranty from me. Anyway, that's why I've never been a fan of tyvek. I have not used it on any additions made to my house.

I've seen the crumbling felt as you describe, I wasn't insinuating that never happens, just that it's not the rule. I guess you don't like working with felt, it's okay to me, not that big of a deal. Well see how tyvek does in 50 years, until then I certainly won't use it on my projects.

Paint cedar? Come on Hogwildz... you can do better than that.

-Kevin

 

[coldinnj]

My comment about double vapor barrier was rhetorical, just promoting food for thought.
Remember when PT lumber came out? Oh they bragged it was guarrenteed for 40 years... Sure was... Guarrenteed to - spit - crack - warp - check and if not retreated rot. I have yet to see any of it last better then 10 years without problems if left unretreated.
With time all materials seem to be found wanting for some reason or other. We think we find better and better ways until someone realizes that some of the old ways really weren't that bad after all. Hmmm maybe our ancesters were not so dumb.

 

[Hogwildz]

Ah Hogwildz
My favorite roof of all...
The best roof of all...
The longest lasting roof of all...
The most cost effective roof of all...
SLATE
Of course this is IMHO
But cared for with normal maintenance - couple of hundred years is not impossible. Just don't insulate up against it. Don't coat it. Let it breathe. And if a person doesn't know how to walk a slate roof then tell him to keep the f**k off of it.
As to cost wise, we had a pretty good price on getting it. We bought it directly from the quarries where it was made / cut.
Anyone have an old Parsons cutter laying around?

Your opinion is also fact. Been there done that. Many many slate roofs. Matter fact, still have the tools. cutter, slate rake etc.
Yes they will last, more realistically 100 yrs. Of course you can extend the life by replacing bad slates. And yes walking them takes finesse. I have had jobs that required spraying them with water proofing. And actually, I think the treated ones last longer than the untreated. But no real evidence either way.
We have alot of roofs with Pennsylvania slates on em. The PA slates have diagonal lines & grain to them, very distinctive and neat looking. But they also weather & crumble faster than other slate.
Those diagonal grains are weakness. And you can end up replacing 10 just trying to replace one LOL. Slate roofing is not for just anyone that's for sure. Then again., roofing isn't for that matter. Slate no doubt last longer than any other residential roofing out there.
If you can get them at a good Price, I say more power to you!!
They also make synthetic ones now also.
Last few I did were those 3/4" to 1" ones. Them suckas are heavy. And get really really hot to touch in the summertime.
We had to use repelling gear with a harness tied to the old roof run lines. That job sucked to be quite frank. LOL

 

[Hogwildz]

My comment about double vapor barrier was rhetorical, just promoting food for thought.
Remember when PT lumber came out? Oh they bragged it was guarrenteed for 40 years... Sure was... Guarrenteed to - spit - crack - warp - check and if not retreated rot. I have yet to see any of it last better then 10 years without problems if left unretreated.
With time all materials seem to be found wanting for some reason or other. We think we find better and better ways until someone realizes that some of the old ways really weren't that bad after all. Hmmm maybe our ancesters were not so dumb.

Agreed.
And as the PT goes. Then they found out years later...." oops, don't set it in concrete". Cause it may be fine up top, but rotting in the concrete LOL.
It always seems years down the road, and after everyone went with the " new craze"., that they all the sudden say" oops. btw" LOL.

 

[Hogwildz]

I think we're more in agreement than not Hogwildz. Every material has its strengths and weaknesses. Plenty of homes have been built without even tar paper. I just hate when folks think that they have to put tyvek over everything, when it really depends on the application at hand. I'm not a fan of it primarily from what I saw as a contractor. A majority of the jobs I did were re-siding homes that were built with the first generation LP T-111. In Portland, OR, T-111 would grow mushrooms on it. Tearing that off exposed tyvek, and underneath the tyvek was black mold on the sheathing. It's a hard pill to swallow for a homeowner when you tell them they need new sheating and it's going to cost an extra few thousand dollars. Not to mention in the process of replacing your sheathing some drywall might crack. I always warned customers up front about anything I find wrong needs to be fixed or no warranty from me. Anyway, that's why I've never been a fan of tyvek. I have not used it on any additions made to my house.

I've seen the crumbling felt as you describe, I wasn't insinuating that never happens, just that it's not the rule. I guess you don't like working with felt, it's okay to me, not that big of a deal. Well see how tyvek does in 50 years, until then I certainly won't use it on my projects.

Paint cedar? Come on Hogwildz... you can do better than that.

-Kevin

Agreed, each has its own place, and homeowner, architect & contractor specs.
I use the term architect very loosely, and have to smile or else....... I am not a big fan of architects. which you surely understand why.
Beleive me, I see painted dedar all over the place here. It amazes me that these folks don't know that it needs to breath & swell. And all they are doing is rotting it out from the inside out. I an not a big fan of painting wood in general. I just love the natural beauty. Stain yes, paint, not me.
And btw, the wrap on my place here, came as that, when bought..... is almost like a platic burlap sack type material. Well some tyvek, some other stuff. Not sure the brand. But looks like it breaths more than tyvek would. Ut oh, maybe I got a gineua pig house. Oh well..

 

[coldinnj]

The slate with the diagonal lines we call ribbon slate. It is what I would buy by the skid and pick through to get the good ones out of. Ribbon slate did not hold up as well. The clean slate did not have the lines and lasted much better.
BTW one problem with slate was when removing it... you had to be careful, slate dust is as slippery as oil.
I have the proof...
After falling 2 1/2 stories off the roof because of a**hole helpers and my own stupidity. Went back up after some healing but a stronger respect for the friction coefficient after that.
I still have about 600 clean 6 x 12 slates about half of which have corner angle cuts, for looks, the others square cut. Anyone interested?

 

[Hogwildz]

The slate with the diagonal lines we call ribbon slate. It is what I would buy by the skid and pick through to get the good ones out of. Ribbon slate did not hold up as well. The clean slate did not have the lines and lasted much better.
BTW one problem with slate was when removing it... you had to be careful, slate dust is as slippery as oil.
I have the proof...
After falling 2 1/2 stories off the roof because of a**hole helpers and my own stupidity. Went back up after some healing but a stronger respect for the friction coefficient after that.
I still have about 600 clean 6 x 12 slates about half of which have corner angle cuts, for looks, the others square cut. Anyone interested?

Dust, cuts, colorfil nose blow material. LOL remember all that.
Yeah the Ribbon slates are inferior to the solid slates. Ribbon slates are cut from PA quarries, maybe NJ also. Not sure.
6 x 12's, wow they are small. last ones I used on a vet hospital, old place. think they were around 12 x 18 or so.
I retired from roofing anyways, NEVER FELL. One of the few I ever met that never fell. LOL
Few close calls. thats it. Would taunt everyone that I will never fall. They thought I was jinxin myself, but I never did fall.
And I can relate to helpers. They are like cleanex, go throught alot, and toss even more.
How busted up did you get when you fell?

 

[coldinnj]

no bust up at the time that I knew of. To bullheaded to go to a Dr. and let them check me out. Hit dirt instead of the concrete front steps by about 10 inches. Of course my back is shot now. May have been that. Don't no. Could have been a contributing factor though.
Whole reason I started my slide was because, while on a not really walkable roof, one of the guys on the roof while ripping it off, hit a bat, killed it with a hammer blow, I didn't know it, then he surprised me by throwing it at me and yelling look out. That started me doing the dumbest thing. I turned my back to the roof, and started sliding. With my back to the roof I couldn't punch through with my slate hammer and next I was immitating a bird - just not very well. That was about 30 years ago. And here I was on another nonwalkable 2 days ago. I guess we don't always learn with age.
BTW the largest roof I ever did was a reroof from slag to rubber job. 30 acres in size. Now that was a roof!

 

[Hogwildz]

no bust up at the time that I knew of. To bullheaded to go to a Dr. and let them check me out. Hit dirt instead of the concrete front steps by about 10 inches. Of course my back is shot now. May have been that. Don't no. Could have been a contributing factor though.
Whole reason I started my slide was because, while on a not really walkable roof, one of the guys on the roof while ripping it off, hit a bat, killed it with a hammer blow, I didn't know it, then he surprised me by throwing it at me and yelling look out. That started me doing the dumbest thing. I turned my back to the roof, and started sliding. With my back to the roof I couldn't punch through with my slate hammer and next I was immitating a bird - just not very well. That was about 30 years ago. And here I was on another nonwalkable 2 days ago. I guess we don't always learn with age.
BTW the largest roof I ever did was a reroof from slag to rubber job. 30 acres in size. Now that was a roof!

Well to fall of your own fault is bad enough, that guy should have known better given the dangers.
Your damn lucky. My back & neck are wasted due to roofing in general.
Is that 30 acres? or 30 squares? 30 acres is a monster roof.
Did the slag have pitch in it. I hated tearing of pitch and getting " allligator skin". We did everything from petroleum jelly on face to u name it.
Was like a real bad sunburn, but not sunburn, pitch burn. Rubber is fun though. Part of why my back is toast though LOL. We had bets on lifting a 20 x 100 roll of reinforced. 700 & something pounds, Lifting on end as far off the deck as we could. I won, but also lost that day. Back went and spent the rest of the week in bed.
We did like the older roofs with the copper flashings. clean all the tar off and off to the stripper bar for the crew that friday night .
You mean true rubber right? Goodyear, Carlisle etc? Some folks here call modified (torch down) rubber. And they really are 2 different beasts.
Done miles of torchdown also. When I finally had enough we were doing alot of hot also. I was mop man. Hated it. Nothing like 550 degree hot tar on a shadless roof in 95 degree weather. Ugh still sucks to think about. Don't miss alot, but do miss some of it.

 

[coldinnj]

Yes 30 ACRES. It was a huge roof. We used Trocal and Flagon then. Yes true rubbver. Glad to see you know what you are talking about. You would be surprised at how many people think torch down is rubber. We welded this with a solvent and if needed used a heat gun for problem welds.
Yes the old was pitch. Did many roofs with that. I'll probably get skin cancer as I age from what I did in the business.
Started my hot roof days as the kettle man. After melting it I would use the roof boom to hand pull the buckets of hotup to the roof. I was in great shape then. When we were short handed I would pull to buckets simultaneously up then tie off the rope at the bottom. Run up the ladder and mop out. Then hook the empties back up go down the ladder and repeat. Oh and BTW while on the roof I had to keep my eyes out for yellow smoke of course. When playing around in the summer, man could I climb ropes!
Also did the roll carrying tests. Had other helpers pick them up put them on our shoulders and see who could walk the farthest.
After winning the one guy wouldn't pay up. Amazing how holding him off the edge of the roof and explaining how tired my arms were getting convinced him to honor the bet.
Also after clearing the roof and laying insul we then layed a barrier of what looked like aluminum foil. Beautifully smoothe. Perfect reflector. Nothing like being on a factory roof, in the summer walking on a perfect reflector. Ahhh the feel of pitch burn covered with sunburn. Not to complain but I paid my dues in the trade. Sounds like you may have worked with me .