Englander 28-3500 tips

[Nickshog]

I just upgraded to the Englander 28-3500 wood furnace from a DutchWest woodstove.
2800 sq ft home
Stove in the basement. .
Any tips or suggestions on how to "dial it in"..
I cant seem to get the lower air inlet and the upper air control right...I'm either getting too hot... (never overfired) or too low and getting creosote. ..

 

[brenndatomu]

Hi Nick, welcome to the jungle! This question has been raised here in the past, if you use the search feature here it may answer some questions for you until the Englander furnace owners show up...

 

[Nickshog]

Hi Nick, welcome to the jungle! This question has been raised here in the past, if you use the search feature here it may answer some questions for you until the Englander furnace owners show up...

Thanks
I've been reading ALOT... I've been burning wood for a long time and was surprised at the creosote creation after only 1 fire... learning this thing is gonna be "fun"

 

[Nickshog]

My Dutchwest had the eco burn system in it... this is quite different

 

[Nickshog]

Ok... one night in... 32degrees outside...82 inside...this thing puts out a lot.of heat. ..
Now the creosote situation. .
My existing flue leaves the flue collar and goes up 4' to a 90...then 5.5' to a "tee" then 26' straight up to the cap....there is an incline on the 5.5' section...but i dont think that its enough.
The creosote was only in the first few sections of pipe and in the stove...
I'm changing the 90 out for 2 ...45 degree bends... then connecting them with a straight pipe... this will remove the horizontal flat run and I think seriously increase my draft and heat in the pipe....
Thoughts anybody......

 

[maple1]

I would buy a manometer. Then there will be no guessing on the draft situation.

How full are you loading it? Smaller loads might help for this time of year.

 

[Nickshog]

I would buy a manometer. Then there will be no guessing on the draft situation.

How full are you loading it? Smaller loads might help for this time of year.

Just learned about the manometer.... never needed anything like that with the Dutchwest...

Not that full... still getting used to the stove.. dont want to go too high and hit the baffle plate..

Been reading here alot about this stove...
Coal bed...draft controls... etc

 

[KTLM]

Ok... one night in... 32degrees outside...82 inside...this thing puts out a lot.of heat. ..
Now the creosote situation. .
My existing flue leaves the flue collar and goes up 4' to a 90...then 5.5' to a "tee" then 26' straight up to the cap....there is an incline on the 5.5' section...but i dont think that its enough.
The creosote was only in the first few sections of pipe and in the stove...
I'm changing the 90 out for 2 ...45 degree bends... then connecting them with a straight pipe... this will remove the horizontal flat run and I think seriously increase my draft and heat in the pipe....
Thoughts anybody......

You're flue install sounds very similar to mine. Drafts really well. These stoves do make some creosote. Burning smaller "hot" fires does help with that issue during relatively warm weather, but will not eliminate it. I check/clean my flue at least once a month when burning regularly. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Also, I have learned that wood must be dry. Borderline moisture content will turn that stove into a creosote factory. At least it does in mine. Generally, I am happy with how mine performs. Plenty of heat, usually goes 6 hours between loads when the weather gets colder. What kind of wood are you burning and how full do you load yours? Would you post the results if you change out the 90 to two 45's. I've been considering the same thing.
Good luck

 

[maple1]

Just learned about the manometer.... never needed anything like that with the Dutchwest...

Not that full... still getting used to the stove.. dont want to go too high and hit the baffle plate..

Been reading here alot about this stove...
Coal bed...draft controls... etc

No experience with a Dutchwest, but I think some appliances might 'handle' draft variations better than others. Likely at the cost of efficiency though.

Also, increasing your draft might also give you too much draft, which will then suck more heat up your chimney. Adding draft isn't necessarily a fix for creosote, so the manometer is also to make sure you don't have too much draft. That is a pretty tall chimney. And, draft can vary greatly with weather & wind conditions outside - which a barometric damper will help immensely with, and you can tune in with a manometer.

 

[Nickshog]

I will post before and after pics of the change...

I only burn seasoned oak..maple and cherry...moisture content measured with a meter is always lower than 18%. I check it before bringing it into the house. The wood is seasoned in a covered shed with ventilation front / back and top.

I have only loaded it with partial loads, but I think that I am not letting the fire get hot enough before closing the air controls. More time in the drivers seat needed here.

1 thing that I have read is that the spin draft control in the ash door is really only to be used for coal fires. Most of the threads I read here are that this is closed all the way and the air is mainly controlled via the air control at the top..... Correct / No / Advise.....

Speaking to a local fireplace place... they told me that the 2 45's will be better that the single 90. He said and I quote "you are asking that smoke to do an awful lot"

He believed that since the creosote was only in the stove, lower parts of the vertical and the long horizontal run, that the smoke was cooling to much too soon. I do have stage 1 and 2 creosote in the main vertical. The type of creosote that i an finding in the pipes and stove is not actually stage 3, (tarry) it is more like a liquid, very runny and almost no viscosity. Like black water. When it cooked off it did turn crusty.

As far as a Manomater.. / Barometric damper, I am going to need your help if I decide to go this route after making the current corrections. If worse comes to worse I can go back to the single 90. I have no idea how to use / "tune in" the damper.

I have read a few posts here vis-a-vis the damper and it seems that it is half and half with some people installing one under advice from other posters, only to cover it with foil because if didnt "work". Of course it may not have worked because it was not dialed in correctly.

The Dutchwest now seems like a playskool "my first woodstove" compared to this beast. It was basically a load and go.....hot fire, turn the knob, get the woosh.....done!

Now I almost feel like a mad scientist in the basement. LOL but I am ready to learn... as long as I dont burn the house down.

 

[Richie]

I have a fire chief 500 and an 28 foot insulated class a chimney. I am burning well seasoned red maple and cherry and getting burn times of about 4 hours. I am usually burning one fire a day. When it got cold last year I did three loads a day of mainly locust and oak and had sufficient coals for restart. My setup only has a spin draft on the bottom and that is all I use. I use the blower just to start fires.

I think a lot of your problems will clear up when we get into the high 30's. My setup is drafting poorly right now so I am burning with a lot more air. The other secret is don't be afraid to make you splits a little larger. I split between 4 and 8 inches. Black locust really seems to work well in these stoves.

 

[brenndatomu]

Speaking to a local fireplace place... they told me that the 2 45's will be better that the single 90

True.

I would buy a manometer. Then there will be no guessing on the draft situation.

Also true. I think all wood furnaces should have a manometer hooked to the chimney. You'd be amazed at how much the draft can change with temp/wind/whatever, and the draft speed affects a wood burner big time! Check the "for sale" section here for a good deal on a manometer (page 2)

I would tend to lean toward just installing a manual damper in your stove pipe while you are installing the 45* elbows. If you can control things that way I would, a baro comes with its own set of disadvantages IMO. I have one, but keep it covered up with tinfoil most of the time.

 

[Nickshog]

ok... here is the before pic... need a few pieces of pipe to make the new connections. Going to take the advice and put in a manual damper since I have it all open. Tomorrow I should have it done. Any suggestions on where the damper should go?

 

[Nickshog]

BTW when I disconnected the piping at the tee, I felt and heard a nice draft. In fact a piece of tissue paper got sucked right in. Its 60 degrees out and there is a ENE wind at 8mph... the "draft" is most likely the result of the venturi effect on the pipe.....but its promising. The inside of the vertical run showed no creosote...... even more promising.

 

[KTLM]

BTW when I disconnected the piping at the tee, I felt and heard a nice draft. In fact a piece of tissue paper got sucked right in. Its 60 degrees out and there is a ENE wind at 8mph... the "draft" is most likely the result of the venturi effect on the pipe.....but its promising. The inside of the vertical run showed no creosote...... even more promising.

Sounds to me like you have the basics covered. Dry wood, hot fires. I really believe you will like that furnace once you figure out the operation details. Good luck.

 

[Nickshog]

How far up from the flue collar should the MPD go? I cant seem to find anything that gives an actual measurement or at least a basic guideline.

 

[maple1]

I'd likely just put it somewhere in the middle of that vertical section above the stove.

I could be off - but it sounds like you might have too much draft in your chimney, if it will suck a tissue up when it's 60° out and the wind is only blowing 8mph. I have a 7" flue about the same height, and my barometric damper set for around 0.1". When it's windy out, and if I hold the flapper shut, my draft will easily hit 0.3". It might depend on your specific situation, but it's those conditions that a barometric damper really is good to have. You can adjust a manual damper for a certain time & condition, but conditions usually vary. So unless you're there adjusting the damper, your draft can also vary with them. I'm on an open hilltop, which likely magnifies my variations.

Does the Englander have a draft spec in the manual?

 

[Nickshog]

No draft spec in the manual.

The existing pipe is being removed and replaced with 2.. 45degree bends.. to make the very flat horizontal run go away. This is believed to be causing the creosote problems or at least greatly contributing to it. I will be coming up about 18" from the flue collar to the first 45... I guess install the MPD just before the first 45?

 

[brenndatomu]

I'd say the damper can go wherever it is convenient in the stove pipe. Most often you see people put them between 1-2' above the stove.
An average draft setting of -.04" to -.08" would cover 98% of the burners out there. Some go as low as -.03" (my Yukon) for a high reading, my Drolet Tundra specs -.06" for a high. So somewhere in there would be a good start for you...

 

[maple1]

Seems a bit odd that the manual doesn't say anything about chimney draft, or a spec, or dampers either manual or barometric. That's usually a key aspect of consistant proper operation. Or maybe they just didn't want to get into it since it was something else a DIYer might mess up so just put the disclaimers about not overfiring in there to cover themselves.

Too much draft will make things harder to control like it sounds like you were noticing in the first post - a manual damper might help take the edge off that. Keep an eye on it though - I had a manual damper in my old pipe, and sometimes when the wind would gust the wrong way the wrong amount, it would move the damper around and sometimes close it up. Might have been due for a replacement, maybe. I would likely also get a probe flue temp guage to go along with it. Or is that what I see in the pic already?

Just how much creosote did you get anyway? Have a pic of that?

 

[Nickshog]

OK... all done. I am going to break down what I did in several different posts because I have a few questions to answer and some information that was given to me by someone that knows about these stoves and also owns a fireplace business in South Jersey.

But First I would like to thank everybody that has responded to my questions and have been gracious and kind with their answers. I hope that with the information that I am going to share, that I can do the same for someone as all of you have done for me.

This is the pic of the after. There is an almost 1" rise from the upper 45 to the "tee", although you cant really tell from the pic. There is a MPD located just above the first 45.

I have a roaring fire in right now to burn off the new pipe. (it was lit after this pic was taken).

 

[Nickshog]

OK now for information...
To answer Maple1..... I was making creosote like it was my JOB.... and I was selling it by the ounce. There was literally over a 1/4 cup of liquid runny muck in the bottom of the stove. When I opened the ash door it came out like I spilled a glass of it on the floor.

I do not have a pic, but it took 2 kitchen towels to clean it up.

As far as the manual, it is vague and references that local codes...bla...bla...bla...

The manual damper was installed and the spring is quite tight. I will keep an eye on it, hopefully with it being as far down as it is, wind plus the spring tightness should not be a problem.

 

[maple1]

Even with my old boiler, liquid creosote is something I have never experienced. The only time I had anything like that was the first burn or two in my new boiler, it was dripping out the bottom door. But it wasn't creosote, it was moisture being baked out of the refractory - new refractory can hold a lot of water until it gets fully cured by the first couple of fires. Not sure on that with the Englander though, don't know what they have for refractory/fire brickage.

The liquidity has me puzzled - sounds so extreme to be beyond the effect of drafting. Let us know how it goes with the changes.

 

[Nickshog]

The Englander 28-3500 spin draft on the ash pan door.
Now this information is being passed on by me from the man at the fireplace store. I am going to take his advise and experiment from here. I will post my own findings. I just wanted to preface with that.
Per him..... the spin draft knob is only used when making a bed of coals. This knob is opened and left open until there is a 2-3" bed of coals. This allows the newly created draft of the chimney pipe to suck air in from under the coals thus feeding the coals from the bottom and making a hotter fire. The slide draft on the top is also left full open during this process. According to him this is a gradual building process because as the chimney gets hotter, more draft, more air in the bottom, feeds the coals, hotter fire...etc...etc..etc.
Once the coal bed is 2-3" thick, is when this can be closed and larger pieces added. But!! according to him, dont fill the box, he told me that when you drop a bunch of wood on the coals, and then close the door, you are smothering the fire until it can catch up....makes sense, didnt think about that. Instead place 2-3 pieces on the coals and let them catch, then 2-3 more, then 2-3 more until the box is filled. 10 minute intervals between feedings. Coals stay hot, flue stays hot and the wood that is added catches to keep the entire system breathing properly. During this time he said that the upper air control can be adjusted as needed, after the last load of wood, this can be banked down and set for the long burn.

 

[Nickshog]

Now....as far as the ash pan......ash slots...and ash falling outside of the pan problem.
He told me that in his opinion this is a design flaw that they do not want to fix. He said that there are a lot of people spending a lot of time making metal plates and inserts to cover the sides to keep the ash holes over the pan.... his fix was simple.... fire brick... buy some fire brick and lay it down on the sides. Leave the center open for the ash, and for the air to flow through when making a coal bed. This will also hold more heat in the bottom, act like a gauge for making a nice bed of coals and solves the problem because the air that is blocked by the fire brick when making a bed of coals, is minimal. When the spin draft is closed, there is no air being fed in from the bottom anyway. I followed this advise also and will post my own findings. In the worst case I bought a few extra fire bricks that I can take out and keep on hand for the future if / when I need them.