Englander and EPA Ridiculous Restrictions

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04HemiRam2500

Feeling the Heat
Jul 10, 2013
430
SW PA
Haven't been on the forum in a while. Kinda just been busy with work family and life in general. This is a ran/wanted ad post...

Built a shop and currently have the englander 28-3500 furnace in my house. Was hoping to put the same unit in my shop but found out they are discontinued. Apparently the epa is so concerned about us wood guys that englander doesn't even have a furnace wood burner model available because of their strict emission standards (I emailed them). Now before you reply, yes I can go for another brand but I have this furnace in the house and know the ins and outs of it. Too darn old to learn new tricks and I think it's just crazy how absurd these regulations have become.

With that being said:
Looking to buy an englander 28-3500. Looking for one new old stock or in really nice used shape. I am located in SW Pennsylvania but I travel alot around ohio, west virginia, maryland and other near by states. I added this to the wanted section of the forum too.

Thanks for the wanted AD and for letting me vent fellas :)
 

john26

Minister of Fire
Oct 27, 2008
632
Wildwood MO
This company sold them up until recently for around $800, I was getting ready to order one last winter but went a different route
https://amfm-energy.myshopify.com/
A few used just sold on FB market place $300-500 range
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,260
Downeast Maine
Don't blame the EPA, Englander had many years to figure this out. They determined the market wasn't there for a more efficient furnace and decided to leave. Blame your neighbors and people you know for not wanting to use wood heat. If there were a market, Englander would make it happen, they love money. The EPA has brought much cleaner air to the homes that burn wood.
 

JRHAWK9

Minister of Fire
Jan 8, 2014
1,728
Wisconsin Dells, WI
Don't blame the EPA, Englander had many years to figure this out. They determined the market wasn't there for a more efficient furnace and decided to leave. Blame your neighbors and people you know for not wanting to use wood heat. If there were a market, Englander would make it happen, they love money. The EPA has brought much cleaner air to the homes that burn wood.

EXACTLY!! A little ole' company in extreme northern MN with like 6 employees (Lamppa Manufacturing) figured out how to burn clean a decade ago now. The OP needs to blame the company for not making burning clean a priority for a standard that was seen coming many years ago.
 
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04HemiRam2500

Feeling the Heat
Jul 10, 2013
430
SW PA
You guys crack me up sometimes. Englander turned their 30-nc wood stove into a furnace and that wasn't even good enough to satisfy uncle Sam at the EPA!! So r we going to blame dodge now too for not having electric cars already like tesla?? I know u guys on here are smarter than that and not towing your wood around behind your prius.

Look My neighbor has the 30-nc epa wood stove from englander the thing throws out alot of heat and is a nice unit. Englander I saw made that into a furnace a couple years back 28-4000 (basically put a shell around the stove) but that wasn't even good enough for the EPA's new standards!!! I'm not blaming englander at all they clearly tried but the new standards r so absurd that taking their big stove and wrapping it into a furnace wasn't even good enough for the EPA. Think about that fellas. Keep supporting the epa and at one point they'll deem that any wood stove carbon emissions doesn't meet their standards. Don't believe just sit back and watch then.

Second note epa stoves vs non epa are 2 very different animals! Each has their place and I support either but why do you think we still have on the forum and entire section for the old pre 90s stoves?? Because they too dish out alot of heat in a different way.

My point is some restrictions are okay but we r starting to cross the line. I'd by the epa rated englander furnace 28-4000 but I can't cause the epa deemed it no good. U guys still blaming englander now or did I wake you up from your pre thanksgiving naps?
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,260
Downeast Maine
I would blame FCA if a new EPA emission standard were released and after ten years nothing was developed to meet the standard and options or models were discontinued. Englander had all the time in the world to meet the new standard, but chose not to. That's not to say a new furnace model is not ever coming to market for Englander, but they definitely focused on the NC30.

The restriction was not crossing the line until it inconvenienced you. Now you want the EPA to walk back the standards thereby inconveniencing the rest of us that like clean air. Thanks.
 

04HemiRam2500

Feeling the Heat
Jul 10, 2013
430
SW PA
@SpaceBus wait till the restrictions are so bad no wood stoves can be sold. Who's to say they won't go that far and here's why: Define clean air.... someone can deem wood heat no longer satisfying that requirement then we will all be looking for used stoves to heat with. I'm just saying if they gradually increase the emission standards every time this can/will happen.

@JRHAWK9 I saw your first post good for them!! Want me to ship them a sticker or something........
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,101
central pa
@SpaceBus wait till the restrictions are so bad no wood stoves can be sold. Who's to say they won't go that far and here's why: Define clean air.... someone can deem wood heat no longer satisfying that requirement then we will all be looking for used stoves to heat with. I'm just saying if they gradually increase the emission standards every time this can/will happen.

@JRHAWK9 I saw your first post good for them!! Want me to ship them a sticker or something........
Have you actually read the clean air act and how it was laid out back in the 80s when it was written? Companies knew about this way in advance. Nothing was sprung on them. You say the furnace is just a 30-nc with a shell on it. If that's the case why didn't they just do the same with the stove that they designed to replace the 30? If the market was there they would do it. My guess is there just isn't enough market.

They have already figured out how to meet the "absurd standards" they just didn't apply them to the stove you want. That isn't the EPA's fault. That's on Englander and the market in general.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,260
Downeast Maine
Wood burning will never be outlawed, and everyone with a stove will be grandfathered into any future legislation. Wood burning is such a niche that one of the biggest stove makers declined to update their wood furnace. Clearly the point of diminishing returns has been met and there isn't even a whisper of future legislation from anywhere in the US. The air is clean because of the EPA. I'm not, and perhaps you aren't either, old enough to have seen first hand how bad the air quality was in the 70's, but it was so bad that a ton of legislation was enacted to improve air quality. The 2020 EPA wood stove standard is just phase two of a law introduced decades ago.

Some of my favorite things are going away due to environmental, but instead of crying about it I'm adapting and learning new things. Instead of being upset about preserving the planet I'm pretty happy about it and am gladly adapting to the future. Change is hard, and leaving your comfort zone is even harder, so I understand your reluctance to change. See these changes as a positive thing so future generations of humans will have a nice planet to enjoy.
 
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MainePatsFan

Member
Nov 24, 2007
71
Southern Maine
I still have a hard time believing my little 13-NC doesn't meet the 2020 standards. When I have that thing cooking, there is nothing visible coming out of the chimney. I just looked at the offerings for what I consider the bargain non-cat stoves. I bought this stove for $500 and change in 2013. The cheapest sub-2000 sq foot stove today that meets the 2020 standards is $1,000. I probably would not have bothered if this was the cost of the cheapest stoves then.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,101
central pa
I still have a hard time believing my little 13-NC doesn't meet the 2020 standards. When I have that thing cooking, there is nothing visible coming out of the chimney. I just looked at the offerings for what I consider the bargain non-cat stoves. I bought this stove for $500 and change in 2013. The cheapest sub-2000 sq foot stove today that meets the 2020 standards is $1,000. I probably would not have bothered if this was the cost of the cheapest stoves then.
Allot more than the 2020 regs has contributed to the current price increases. The 13-nc may have met the requirements but everything had to be retested using the new procedure (which is a bit more representative of real world useage) and relabeled.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,531
South Puget Sound, WA
The 13-NC was decent, but not quite making the 2020 requirements. The 30-NC was much better and an easy segway. Englander decided to replace the 13-NC with the Madison which, with a much larger glass area has proven popular. This decision was made several years ago and as noted, most likely a business and market driven decision.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,304
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
You guys crack me up sometimes. Englander turned their 30-nc wood stove into a furnace and that wasn't even good enough to satisfy uncle Sam at the EPA!! So r we going to blame dodge now too for not having electric cars already like tesla?? I know u guys on here are smarter than that and not towing your wood around behind your prius.

Look My neighbor has the 30-nc epa wood stove from englander the thing throws out alot of heat and is a nice unit. Englander I saw made that into a furnace a couple years back 28-4000 (basically put a shell around the stove) but that wasn't even good enough for the EPA's new standards!!! I'm not blaming englander at all they clearly tried but the new standards r so absurd that taking their big stove and wrapping it into a furnace wasn't even good enough for the EPA. Think about that fellas. Keep supporting the epa and at one point they'll deem that any wood stove carbon emissions doesn't meet their standards. Don't believe just sit back and watch then.

Second note epa stoves vs non epa are 2 very different animals! Each has their place and I support either but why do you think we still have on the forum and entire section for the old pre 90s stoves?? Because they too dish out alot of heat in a different way.

My point is some restrictions are okay but we r starting to cross the line. I'd by the epa rated englander furnace 28-4000 but I can't cause the epa deemed it no good. U guys still blaming englander now or did I wake you up from your pre thanksgiving naps?

Just wait, somebody will tell you it's illegal to install a woodburner in your shop too.

Even the nc30 wasn't good enough for the 2020 standards so it comes as no surprise that the "NC30 in a box" furnace went away too.

The new legal furnaces are pretty great. The testing was hard and the market too small for Englander. I own an NC30 and even an englander pellet grill. It was a great american company but I think they are going downhill.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,101
central pa
Just wait, somebody will tell you it's illegal to install a woodburner in your shop too.

Even the nc30 wasn't good enough for the 2020 standards so it comes as no surprise that the "NC30 in a box" furnace went away too.

The new legal furnaces are pretty great. The testing was hard and the market too small for Englander. I own an NC30 and even an englander pellet grill. It was a great american company but I think they are going downhill.
It depends what the shop is used for and what is stored in it. Code is code no matter how much you claim this one doesn't apply. Although with a furnace you can have a separate furnace room and be completely compliant.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,304
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
It depends what the shop is used for and what is stored in it. Code is code no matter how much you claim this one doesn't apply. Although with a furnace you can have a separate furnace room and be completely compliant.
Of course code applies. I never said it didn’t but the OP might be surprised.

You’re the mod, so you’re always right.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,531
South Puget Sound, WA
The 30-NC has an EPA emission rating of 1.6gm which is excellent. They didn't have to tweak it too much to qualify the 32-NC for the 2020 regs.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,304
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
The 30-NC has and EPA emission rating of 1.6gm which is excellent. They didn't have to tweak it too much to qualify the 32-NC for the 2020 regs.
Isn’t the 2020 test an entirely different method? Apples to oranges?

The nc30 was darn clean relative to other stoves of that era.
 
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Woodsplitter67

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2017
2,036
Woolwich nj
Some of my favorite things are going away due to environmental, but instead of crying about it I'm adapting and learning new things. Instead of being upset about preserving the planet I'm pretty happy about it and am gladly adapting to the future. Change is hard, and leaving your comfort zone is even harder, so I understand your reluctance to change. See these changes as a positive thing so future generations of humans will have a nice planet to enjoy.

I agree with this. We need to improve what were doing to this planet as the human race. It is difficult to make the changes were kinda set in our ways a little, but with open minds comes the opportunity.
 

Dave_in_ABQ

New Member
Oct 27, 2021
50
New Mexico
04HemiRam2500, you have an opportunity to upgrade to a better performing furnace. More energy efficient and less polluting; what is there to dislike about that?
 
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71montess

New Member
Mar 27, 2021
49
Base camp
@SpaceBus wait till the restrictions are so bad no wood stoves can be sold. Who's to say they won't go that far and here's why: Define clean air.... someone can deem wood heat no longer satisfying that requirement then we will all be looking for used stoves to heat with. I'm just saying if they gradually increase the emission standards every time this can/will happen.

@JRHAWK9 I saw your first post good for them!! Want me to ship them a sticker or something........
The state of Massachusetts has a Commitee that is pushing the outlaw of alternative fuels, wood stoves as well as gas. The stove retailers association just sent out a mailer. The enviroNazis will try to end wood stove burning , because “Clean Air” . Google it if you doubt me.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,101
central pa
The state of Massachusetts has a Commitee that is pushing the outlaw of alternative fuels, wood stoves as well as gas. The stove retailers association just sent out a mailer. The enviroNazis will try to end wood stove burning , because “Clean Air” . Google it if you doubt me.
What committee is that?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,101
central pa
The only thing I found was a group pushing to ban fossil fuels. Count find anything about wood
 
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