Fireplace insert advice

[Chinneysweep187]

I know that many sweeps do the same thing but in my experince a higher percentage of stove shops go with the cheaper liners and no insulation but you are right my original statement was not fair i am sorry

100% fact that stove companies do it more often than chimney sweeps because they don't care how it vents whatsoever as long as you buy their stove. But chimney sweep companies do too . A lot of my business comes from redoing jobs from other chimney sweep companies that did a wrong install

 

[bholler]

A lot of my business comes from redoing jobs from other chimney sweep companies that did a wrong install

We don't get to much of that work but we definitely do see some sub par installs by both types of pros.

 

[stovelark]

OK chimneysweep- So your implication is that stove shops "don't care how it vents as long as you buy their stove." Is that the same logic as chimney sweeps who don't care or know how stoves operate as long as you get them to install their so-called better liner?? I thought we all had the correct intention of making sure a customer gets the proper stove and proper operating chimney system. My bad....

 

[bholler]

OK chimneysweep- So your implication is that stove shops "don't care how it vents as long as you buy their stove." Is that the same logic as chimney sweeps who don't care or know how stoves operate as long as you get them to install their so-called better liner?? I thought we all had the correct intention of making sure a customer gets the proper stove and proper operating chimney system. My bad....

You are right there are lots of good stove shops out there. But honestly i have yet to see one who installs only insulated liners. I am positive there are some out there but from what i have seen most don't do it every time and many don't even offer it. And i have never seen a stove shop sell a heavy wall liner either. Now there are also many hack sweeps out there who are only out there to sell liners and don't care how it works after they leave. But most i know want to be called back there regularly to service that chimney and if it doesn't work well it makes our job harder and makes us look bad.

 

[Chinneysweep187]

Yeah it was a broad assumption and is probably biased to my area So my apologies but chimney companies usually do everything sell and install stoves install liners rebuild chimneys , replacing face walls, etc. my company does it all we know how the heating appliances( wood stoves gas stoves , gas inserts ,pellet etc) work and also care and every liner has a purpose and reason it should be used so define so called better liner

 

[Chinneysweep187]

And I'm sorry but most people working at stove shops do not know or are not qualified to properly vent anything . Sorry that's just my area idk about else where

 

[bholler]

Ok we have gotten way off topic and our silly bickering isnt helping the op pick an insert. Bottom line is pick the stove you like but you need to get as big as you can to heat that place. Then get a good liner installed correctly with insulation and a block off plate. After that as long as you have good wood you should be in good shape

 

[Chinneysweep187]

Yea like I said I would just look at ft it can heat and efficiency . I use regency + Hampton but jotuls work great same with Harmon . Personal preference I think

 

[bholler]

same with Harmon

That is honestly one that i would not recommend to anyone at all personally. I am not a fan

 

[Chinneysweep187]

I have no personal experience , but the ones I service are always really clean and the customers say they work great .

 

[bholler]

I have no personal experience , but the ones I service are always really clean and the customers say they work great .

Really most of our customers with them have trouble getting them to work correctly they can be great stoves but they are tricky. And i hate servicing all of the downdrafts they are a pain to tear down and have lots of delicate parts

 

[Chinneysweep187]

Luckily I only see newer harmons haven't had to replace any parts . If you've seen ones that suck that have actually seen use I'd have to take your word for it

 

[bholler]

Luckily I only see newer harmons haven't had to replace any parts . If you've seen ones that suck that have actually seen use I'd have to take your word for it

dont you take apart the combustion chamber to clean it out each time? We do and it is a pita

 

[Chinneysweep187]

Yeah no doubt the construction was definitely not convenient or practical

 

[stovelark]

Guys- I apologize for skewing this thread also- I think we can all agree that stove stores and sweeps could be more knowledgeable about the hearth business. From what I've observed here on this site, most times it doesn't matter if someone has personal knowledge about something, they put it out as fact anyhow... Just an observation. I too agree that any downdrafting design isn't a good one, VC, Harman's, they all are hard to clean, are fragile in their design and generally do not draft as well as an air tube designed stove or a stove with the combustor in the top of the stove (a la blazeking). I also apologize to the op for my runoffs as well. Good luck to all.

 

[pdxdave]

My advice is do not under any circumstances get a flush insert.

 

[BringinHeat]

My advice is do not under any circumstances get a flush insert.

Just wondering what's wrong (in your opinion) with a flush insert?

 

[pdxdave]

Just wondering what's wrong (in your opinion) with a flush insert?

4 main things off the top of my head:
-Much of the heat travels up the chimney and surrounding mass rather into space, protruding insert or free standing helps alot

-Need fan to get heat out which is a)noisy and more problematic b)inlet at bottom is flush with door so ash gets pulled into fan and blown throughout space, it is unavoidable no matter how careful you are

-Firebox dimensions are more restricted and in my experience have much poorer than average performance in temperature, burn times and ease of starting and maintaining fire due to awkward dimensions

-North/south loading is tough due to restricted dimensions

 

[begreen]

Some of those issues are based on the fireplace design, not whether it's a flush insert. The depth and shape of the firebox depend on how much room there is to install the insert. They make E/W loaders for shallower fireplaces. Same goes for the firebox shape. They are often smaller in the rear to match the trapezoidal shape of the fireplace. Ease of starting is often draft and kindling dependent. FWIW, the Voyageur at least has an ashlip which should reduce ash getting sucked into the blower intake.

 

[bholler]

-Much of the heat travels up the chimney and surrounding mass rather into space, protruding insert or free standing helps alot

The tiny bit of protrusion on most inserts makes very little difference in this respect. And with a proper install with an insulated block off plate there should not be much heat going up the chimney

Need fan to get heat out which is a)noisy and more problematic

True but also true of a regular insert

b)inlet at bottom is flush with door so ash gets pulled into fan and blown throughout space, it is unavoidable no matter how careful you are

Some have ash lips still which helps with this issue

-Firebox dimensions are more restricted and in my experience have much poorer than average performance in temperature, burn times and ease of starting and maintaining fire due to awkward dimensions

That depends allot on the stove design some are good some are not.

-North/south loading is tough due to restricted dimensions

That again comes down to stove design some are better than others

 

[pdxdave]

Of course there are variations in designs and setup, but in my experience I had all of these issues in a big way, and switching to a free standing stove alleviated them 100% without any change to the wood supply or draft.

 

[bholler]

Of course there are variations in designs and setup, but in my experience I had all of these issues in a big way, and switching to a free standing stove alleviated them 100% without any change to the wood supply or draft.

Well that is a comparison between a frestander and a flush insert Not a regular insert and a flush one. Your points are much more valid if there are comparing inserts and freestanders for sure

 

[begreen]

A freestanding stove is another conversation. Not sure if that is an option in this circumstance.

 

[pdxdave]

Well that is a comparison between a frestander and a flush insert Not a regular insert and a flush one. Your points are much more valid if there are comparing inserts and freestanders for sure

There were other issues i also found with the stove but i stuck with only main points that i believe for good reason could be at least partially or wholely eliminated with a protruding insert also. There are scant few on this site who have expressed full satisfaction with a flush insert. The portion of satisfied users increases significantly when we look at those with protruding inserts and moreso again when we look at those with freestanders. Flush inserts look great IMO but as a practical heating appliance are extremely limited and my experience combined with others here strongly supports this.

With the OPs #1 consideration being to heat a large area and asking specifically for insert advice it would be a disservice to not advise this, afterall that is one of the many reasons why we have this forum.

 

[bholler]

There were other issues i also found with the stove but i stuck with only main points that i believe for good reason could be at least partially or wholely eliminated with a protruding insert also.

The only thing that the slight protrusion will change is that it can give you a little bit more space in the fire box there will be very little to no gain in heat output. The protrusion is very small and for the most part it is a convective jacket that is protruding also so wont get much radiant heat.