Fireplace Insert Replacement?

[bernie1]

Hi everyone! This is my first post.

I bought a home last year, it’s about 20 years old and 2600 sqft. It has a zero clearance fireplace “Superior” (now Lennox) model SP38A. The cost of propane kills me and I try to use this fireplace to help heat my home. But obviously it does not have good efficiency. I have to feed a ton of wood and get it blazing hot to help on cold days these past two winters. I swear it almost sucks more cold air in the house than heat it produces. My house is always cold and I need some better options.

Question #1: Could I modify this current fireplace….. run a duct for combustion air ….better seals and use this unit efficiently?

Question #2: If modifications to my current unit is not an option could I just replace the insert with a high efficiency model? I have no idea what would be compatible any ideas and opinions on models? I got two quotes from Lennox dealers in my local area, and they would only quote a complete switch out of all components (Fireplace, Flue, Rain Cap, Mantle, Etc…) and prices ranged from $10K-12K. I don’t have that kind of money to drop on this. I have a double wall stainless flue I really think this could be reused, and save a ton of work and cost.

Questions #3 If neither 1 and 2 work I also thought of buying a traditional Wood stove and sticking it in the basement. I’m sure this is doable but kind of an ugly option for me. I don’t have any venting options beside penetrating the basement wall and running up the side of the house.
Please send some advice this way… Options?…. Opinions?

I’ve been in commercial construction for the past 15 years so I’m capable of doing a lot if not all work my self. I’m just a little unsure on this and want to keep my house safe for my awesome wife and two small boys.

I only have $2k-3K max to spend on this project.

Thanks!

 

[DAKSY]

Hi everyone! This is my first post.


I bought a home last year, it’s about 20 years old and 2600 sqft. It has a zero clearance fireplace “Superior” (now Lennox) model SP38A. The cost of propane kills me and I try to use this fireplace to help heat my home. But obviously it does not have good efficiency. I have to feed a ton of wood and get it blazing hot to help on cold days these past two winters. I swear it almost sucks more cold air in the house than heat it produces. My house is always cold and I need some better options.

Your fireplace doesn't suck cold air in. It vents HEATED air out. It's like having a campfire in your living room.
You are warm when you're near it & only on the side facing the flames.

Question #1: Could I modify this current fireplace….. run a duct for combustion air ….better seals and use this unit efficiently?

No. You can't modify anything on it. Nothing you do to this unit will change the efficiency.

Question #2: If modifications to my current unit is not an option could I just replace the insert with a high efficiency model? I have no idea what would be compatible any ideas and opinions on models? I got two quotes from Lennox dealers in my local area, and they would only quote a complete switch out of all components (Fireplace, Flue, Rain Cap, Mantle, Etc…) and prices ranged from $10K-12K. I don’t have that kind of money to drop on this. I have a double wall stainless flue I really think this could be reused, and save a ton of work and cost.

You may have the option of either fitting a more efficient unit (fireplace insert) into the existing firebox,
or you may be able to set a woodburning unit IN FRONT of the ZC box,
increasing the hearth & installing an insulated liner for the full length of the existing stack.
Unfortunately, a complete tear-out of what you have in there now will cost you, as you know. It takes a minimum of
4 hours to remove the firebox & the chimney system & it takes at least a two-man crew to do that.
Your existing chimney is designed for the unit that was installed with it & is
probably not compatible with newer, EPA rated models, so that will also add to the costs.

Questions #3 If neither 1 and 2 work I also thought of buying a traditional Wood stove and sticking it in the basement. I’m sure this is doable but kind of an ugly option for me. I don’t have any venting options beside penetrating the basement wall and running up the side of the house.

No way to run the Class A THROUGH the house & framing it in? It's a better option for getting a good draft...

Please send some advice this way… Options?…. Opinions?

I’ve been in commercial construction for the past 15 years so I’m capable of doing a lot if not all work my self. I’m just a little unsure on this and want to keep my house safe for my awesome wife and two small boys.

I only have $2k-3K max to spend on this project.

Your least expensive option is a free standing stove, insulated liner & increased hearth, & that may not come in under $3K.

Thanks!

 

[Grisu]

As Daksy pointed out already, your least expensive option will be to put a rear-vented stove in front of the fireplace and to connect it to an insulated liner than runs down your existing flue. Extending the hearth will probably be required. Do you have any pics of the fireplace? The height of the fireplace opening measured from the hearth will determine which model/brand stove may be an option. Woodstock stoves start at about 27" minimum height with the optional short leg kit. Look at the Ideal Steel there for an appropriately sized stove that is still kind of within your budget. Nevertheless, with stove+shipping, insulated liner kit, possible hearth extension you are looking at closer to $3500 even when you do the install yourself.

Other options for large, rear-vented stoves would be:
Jotul F55, Hearthstone Manchester (check with your local dealer, some members got a good deal on one), High Valley 1600 (probably the cheapest option and needs only 23" minimum height for the lintel)

Make sure you have plenty of dry wood with a moisture content of less than 20% or you won't be happy with either stove. Usually, wood needs to be split and stacked in the open for 2 years (for dense species like oak even more) to reach that level.

 

[bernie1]

I
Dasky,

Thanks for the reply.

Grisu,

The dimensions of the current unit are 40” by 45” I can take some pictures tonight.


“probably not compatible with newer, EPA rated models” Why would that be? 8 inch flue is a 8 inch flue, Right? What would be different?

 

[Grisu]

I
Dasky,

Thanks for the reply.

Grisu,

The dimensions of the current unit are 40” by 45” I can take some pictures tonight.

40" of opening height? You certainly won't have a problem to fit any rear-vented stove in there. Maybe even a top-vented one that is partially pushed inside (although clearances may become an issue then). Yep, pics will really be good.

“probably not compatible with newer, EPA rated models” Why would that be? 8 inch flue is a 8 inch flue, Right? What would be different?

First, most EPA-models require a 6" flue. Second, they also require a flue that is approved for higher temps than most fireplace chimneys. If you can open up the chase and look inside for a label we can tell for sure if the flue you have is sufficient. But it is very likely that it is not.

 

[begreen]

The critical dimension for a rear vent stove installation will be the lintel height above the hearth. That is what the connecting stove pipe that is coming out the back of the stove has to clear.

 

[bernie1]

40" of opening height? You certainly won't have a problem to fit any rear-vented stove in there. Maybe even a top-vented one that is partially pushed inside (although clearances may become an issue then). Yep, pics will really be good.



First, most EPA-models require a 6" flue. Second, they also require a flue that is approved for higher temps than most fireplace chimneys. If you can open up the chase and look inside for a label we can tell for sure if the flue you have is sufficient. But it is very likely that it is not.

Could I just feed a 6 inch flue pipe thru the 8 inch?

If the pipe has a proper rating or UL listing couldn't I just put on a reducer? Is the 6 inches for emissions or something else?

 

[begreen]

Grisu is right, the odds are the pipe is not 2100F HT chimney. Yes, the solution is to run a 6" stainless liner thru it up to the top.

Note that besides replacing the fireplace with a modern EPA unit or putting a stove in front, a third option would be to remove the zc fireplace and chimney and turn the space into an alcove for a freestanding stove with a new chimney. This will conserve room space. Note that clearances for an alcove are critical. Not all stoves will work in this situation.

 

[Grisu]

Could I just feed a 6 inch flue pipe thru the 8 inch?

Not really a pipe but a liner like this (just an example; no endorsement) including the insulation kit: http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/5117/product/Flex-King-HD-Chimney-Liner-6X20-Tee-Kit.html

If the pipe has a proper rating or UL listing couldn't I just put on a reducer? Is the 6 inches for emissions or something else?

6" are for better draft. Too wide of a flue may not get you enough draft potentially resulting in poor burns, smoke backing into the room, creosote accumulation in the flue with subsequent chimney fire etc.

Here is a thread showing a stove being vented through a fireplace: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/rear-vent-wood-stove-through-masonry-fireplace.110725/

 

[bernie1]

Not really a pipe but a liner like this (just an example; no endorsement) including the insulation kit: http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/5117/product/Flex-King-HD-Chimney-Liner-6X20-Tee-Kit.html



6" are for better draft. Too wide of a flue may not get you enough draft potentially resulting in poor burns, smoke backing into the room, creosote accumulation in the flue with subsequent chimney fire etc.

Here is a thread showing a stove being vented through a fireplace: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/rear-vent-wood-stove-through-masonry-fireplace.110725/

Could I just run that liner up to the top and not replace the existing cap? My roof is a standing metal seam with a 12x12 pitch…not walkable.

 

[bholler]

Could I just run that liner up to the top and not replace the existing cap? My roof is a standing metal seam with a 12x12 pitch…not walkable.

it needs to be a cap designed for that purpose which still allows for air flow between the 2 layers of the old chimney. Also before doing any of this you should fully inspect the existing unit to make sure it has proper clearances and is not rusted out.

 

[bernie1]

it needs to be a cap designed for that purpose which still allows for air flow between the 2 layers of the old chimney. Also before doing any of this you should fully inspect the existing unit to make sure it has proper clearances and is not rusted out.

Its Stainless

 

[bholler]

Its Stainless

Yes the inner liner is stainless but nothing else is. any of the layers of the firebox and or the outer layer of the chimney can and do rust out quite often

 

[begreen]

The flue must be cleaned before a liner is installed. That's the time for an inspection. We can't do it through the internet, it needs eyes-on-site.

 

[bholler]

That's the time for an inspection. We can't do it through the internet, it needs eyes-on-site.

I agree but you need to at the very least pull the chase cover and look down inside to confirm proper clearances and that the outer layer is intact and in good shape. Also go over the fire box and make sure everything is in good shape as well

 

[bernie1]

This is pic of what I've got.

 

[bernie1]

The flue is 12 inch diameter...and galvanized...gotta be double wall.

 

[begreen]

It's probably triple-wall, outer layer air-cooled.

 

[bholler]

that looks like a high efficiency one with the way the doors are but i couldn't find a manual online anyone have any ideas on it?

The flue is 12 inch diameter...and galvanized...gotta be double wall.

Could be double or triple wall if you knew the make and model of the chimney we could tell you if it was useable with a stove but with out that we cant tell

 

[bernie1]

that looks like a high efficiency one with the way the doors are but i couldn't find a manual online anyone have any ideas on it?



Could be double or triple wall if you knew the make and model of the chimney we could tell you if it was useable with a stove but with out that we cant tell

Would picture help?

 

[bholler]

Of the chimney? Not unless it has it has a label on it

 

[bernie1]

Flue

 

[bernie1]

That's going through my attic

 

[bernie1]

Outside

 

[bholler]

from what i see outside i would not mess with putting anything in that chimney it is beat unless you can find out what chimney it is and get new sections for above the roof