Flue damper, what's it for?

[begreen]

Do you mean the ash pit?

No, I meant an outside air supply, but an ash pit is worthy of looking for too.

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

No, I meant an outside air supply, but an ash pit is worthy of looking for too.

Can an ash pit leak air into the fireplace and how does that influence the performance of an insert?

 

[begreen]

It would depend on how it was constructed and whether cold air was being pulled up through it.

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

It would depend on how it was constructed and whether cold air was being pulled up through it.

I see. I stuffed mine with Roxul when I put the Kent in, but I will check before I install the Rainier. Is the cold air a good or bad thing?

 

[FR9Ford]

Is there a hole in the floor of the fireplace that admits outside air for combustion?

No there is not

 

[FR9Ford]

How hard can it be to make one though

 

[Sprinter]

No there is not

Yeah, even though "modern" stoves don't draw all that much compared to an open fireplace, without outside combustion air, there will be cold air infiltrating the house to get to the stove, especially a big one this. I'm a big believer in so-called OAK's. They are actually required in mobile home applications, but mostly because mobiles are considered to be so tight (right or wrong), that without it, the stove can compete with other things like dryers, bathroom fans, etc for air, sometimes allowing inadequate air to the stove. Any tight house can suffer that way, but a drafty house can be a problem too with the air infiltration.

 

[FR9Ford]

Yeah, even though "modern" stoves don't draw all that much compared to an open fireplace, without outside combustion air, there will be cold air infiltrating the house to get to the stove, especially a big one this. I'm a big believer in so-called OAK's. They are actually required in mobile home applications, but mostly because mobiles are considered to be so tight (right or wrong), that without it, the stove can compete with other things like dryers, bathroom fans, etc for air, sometimes allowing inadequate air to the stove. Any tight house can suffer that way, but a drafty house can be a problem too with the air infiltration.

So do people make their own air kits? How would that work. I have a hammer drill. I can poke some holes.

 

[Sprinter]

So do people make their own air kits? How would that work. I have a hammer drill. I can poke some holes.

Well, your stove may have come with a provision for adding a duct around 3 or 4 inches. Then all you have to do is add it to the stove and get the other end to an outside air source. The outside inlet should be screened off for rodents and other undesirables and in a place that is isolated from wind, like a crawl space (ventilated).

If your's doesn't, I guess you'd have to find the primary air inlet and figure out how to apply the duct to it somehow. But you'd probably want to make sure it wouldn't affect the warranty or otherwise affect the operation. Others more familiar with this model may have suggestions. The specs do say it's not recommended for mobile home installations and that often means it has no OAK kit provision, but check anyway.

 

[FR9Ford]

I'm 98.6% sure it doesn't have that. I asked the installer about it and he said newp.

 

[HomeinPA]

I brought up the ash dump because there was a theory that the blower was drawing cold air in and causing the air being blown into the room to be cooled down. I was under the impression your stove was burning quite hot, just not putting off an equivalent amount of heat. If outside/combustion air were the issue I would think your stove would have a slow lazy fire and not come up to the temps that had been mentioned.

 

[Sprinter]

I brought up the ash dump because there was a theory that the blower was drawing cold air in and causing the air being blown into the room to be cooled down. I was under the impression your stove was burning quite hot, just not putting off an equivalent amount of heat. If outside/combustion air were the issue I would think your stove would have a slow lazy fire and not come up to the temps that had been mentioned.

I really doubt if the lack of an OAK would contribute this much of a problem unless the house is very tight and maybe has some other things competing for air, or the house is very drafty pulling in a lot of outdoor air through the house, but the issues don't seem to point that way to me. But in the long run, I would encourage the OP to do what he can to install something while he is looking into the other aspects and has access.

Without being there to assess everything on site, it's just very hard to determine what problems may be contributing to all this. So, we often suggest everything that comes to mind even if it seems like a shotgun approach. All suggestions are welcome. You never know when the magic bullet may appear if there is one.

As for ash dumps, you are right that a leaky ash door in the firebox can cause the fire to be uncontrollably hot since it's just adding too much combustion air. It happens. I never have even opened mine so gunk can't clog up the seals. IMO, they are kind of worthless anyway.

 

[Sprinter]

I'm 98.6% sure it doesn't have that. I asked the installer about it and he said newp.

What does your installer have to say about all this? Have you asked him over?

 

[FR9Ford]

I brought up the ash dump because there was a theory that the blower was drawing cold air in and causing the air being blown into the room to be cooled down. I was under the impression your stove was burning quite hot, just not putting off an equivalent amount of heat. If outside/combustion air were the issue I would think your stove would have a slow lazy fire and not come up to the temps that had been mentioned.

My stove has an ash dump but i dont use it. Its worthless. I struggle to get the stove hot. Ive read on over fires and loading in the middle of a burn, and i can open the door mid rage, and toss new in and itll lose heat. Ive practically tried to get an over fire (not on purpose just ignorant) and couldn't get one. If i successfully get the stove hot, it doesnt stay hot. It could be that im only loading 4 pieces in at a time and its jusy a very hungry stove, but it doesnt seem to matter if i load 4 pieces in or 12 pieces, temps and burn times are the exact same.

I was under the impresion thata slow lazy flame is what you want. I let iy burn full bore for 10-15 mins then choke it down till the flames just roll slow like a candle. Please tell me if im doing it wrong. Sometimes i can close the air all the way and get a good few hours of burn time at about 400* on my front temp gauge.

 

[FR9Ford]

Fyi i tested another piece of ash last nighy for moisture after it sat for 48 hours and it was 17%

 

[Sprinter]

Fyi i tested another piece of ash last nighy for moisture after it sat for 48 hours and it was 17%

I hate to ask this, but I assume that you let the whole piece sit in the house and then split it open again to test after the 48 hours. The reason being that meters are only measuring the surface down maybe a millimeter or so, and any open face surface can dry quite a bit in 48 hours warm on the surface. Not doubting what you did, and your fire looks pretty good on the pics, but just pointing it out FWIW. It's a good chance it's still okay, but it is pretty important to measure the inside of a split that has been just split to be sure.

 

[coutufr]

The air from the room is sucked around the stove insert and goes up and outside the house through a hole above or behind the stove. The hotter you burn and the colder outside the more intense the chimney effect is sucking the air from inside the house to the outside. The air going out is replaced by cold air coming in the other rooms or the basement. Is your house very dry?

 

[Sprinter]

I was under the impresion thata slow lazy flame is what you want. I let iy burn full bore for 10-15 mins then choke it down till the flames just roll slow like a candle. Please tell me if im doing it wrong. Sometimes i can close the air all the way and get a good few hours of burn time at about 400* on my front temp gauge.

Well, the important thing to look for is evidence that the secondaries are burning. Without that, you've got a pre-1990 inefficient stove in effect. The lazy flame thing is fine as long as the secondaries are firing well.

It takes some experience studying the fire after you light it. Again, there are a lot of factors involved. Sometimes, mine will take off in five or 10 minutes, other times it takes longer depending on how I fill it, start it, etc. Also, often mine is going well even with the stove top at only 200F or so. It's the temp inside the box that is key because the secondaries need to be at 1100 or more to work. You have to look at the secondaries. Sometimes, you think the secondaries are going fine so you turn the air down and then look again and they've gone out because the firebox has cooled somehow. Also, it works best if you turn the air down a little at a time. Nurse it down in stages. These are just a few hints to look for.

Stove top temps and amount of time alone are not the whole game. Keeping the secondaries consistently firing is though and that takes watching the fire closely. It's sometimes a balancing act to get the air turned down as soon as you can for efficiency, but it's only efficient if the secondaries are working for you. Takes practice. Often, my primary fire can look nearly dead, but there are orange and blue (blue is best - hotter) dancing flames around the secondary system. That's what to look for, although lazy primary burning is fine too along with the secondary flame on top, depending on your fire, wood, etc.

Did I mention that it's all about the secondaries? Even if you are already familiar with all this, it comes up on threads often and I thought it may be helpful.

 

[FR9Ford]

I hate to ask this, but I assume that you let the whole piece sit in the house and then split it open again to test after the 48 hours. The reason being that meters are only measuring the surface down maybe a millimeter or so, and any open face surface can dry quite a bit in 48 hours warm on the surface. Not doubting what you did, and your fire looks pretty good on the pics, but just pointing it out FWIW. It's a good chance it's still okay, but it is pretty important to measure the inside of a split that has been just split to be sure.

Yes i split it after 48, and tested immediatley

 

[FR9Ford]

Well, the important thing to look for is evidence that the secondaries are burning. Without that, you've got a pre-1990 inefficient stove in effect. The lazy flame thing is fine as long as the secondaries are firing well. It takes some experience studying the fire after you light it. Again, there are a lot of factors involved. Sometimes, mine will take off in five or 10 minutes, other times it takes longer depending on how I fill it, start it, etc. You have to look at the secondaries. Sometimes, you think the secondaries are going fine so you turn the air down and then look again and they've gone out because the firebox has cooled somehow. Also, it works best if you turn the air down a little at a time. Nurse it down in stages. These are just a few hints to look for.

Stove top temps and amount of time alone are not the whole game. Keeping the secondaries consistently firing is though and that takes watching the fire closely. It's sometimes a balancing act to get the air turned down as soon as you can for efficiency, but it's only efficient if the secondaries are working for you. Takes practice. Often, my primary fire can look nearly dead, but there are orange and blue (blue is best - hotter) dancing flames around the secondary system. That's what to look for, although lazy primary burning is fine too along with the secondary flame on top, depending on your fire, wood, etc.

Did I mention that it's all about the secondaries? Even if you are already familiar with all this, it comes up on threads often and I thought it may be helpful.

That's become sort of an issue. I can get them going, but sometimes they only light for a little bit. It seems i have to check it every 20 minutes, which i really can't do. In my experience so far, the secondaries dont seem to stay lit for the duration of the burn, only maybe 1/4-1/2 of it. Is that normal ?

 

[Sprinter]

Yes i split it after 48, and tested immediatley

Sounds like the wood is fine.

 

[Sprinter]

In my experience so far, the secondaries dont seem to stay lit for the duration of the burn, only maybe 1/4-1/2 of it. Is that normal ?

Not in my experience, no. Once you have them going well, they should stay good throughout the burn cycle until the fire just cools down normally. Something wrong there.

 

[FR9Ford]

Not in my experience, no. Once you have them going well, they should stay good throughout the burn cycle until the fire just cools down normally. Something wrong there.

Hmmmm. So then there lies an issue. Anything you can suggest?

 

[Sprinter]

Hmmmm. So then there lies an issue. Anything you can suggest?

Hard to tell without being there. For some reason the firebox is cooling too much, or was never quite hot enough to begin with before shutting the air down. It's easy to shut the air down too much, too early. It's happened to all of us I suppose. I can only repeat to watch the fire closely, close the air down in steps. I'm starting to wonder if there really is a problem with primary air supply, maybe even in the control mechanism.

Again, I'm not familiar with your stove, but maybe the air shouldn't be closed all the way at all. What happens if you keep the air up a little throughout the cycle? BTW, lazy flames without secondary burning equals smoldering and potential creosote buildup. I can't remember what you said about the window. Does it stay clean after a troublesome burn?

 

[FR9Ford]

Hard to tell without being there. For some reason the firebox is cooling too much, or was never quite hot enough to begin with before shutting the air down. It's easy to shut the air down too much, too early. It's happened to all of us I suppose. I can only repeat to watch the fire closely, close the air down in steps. I'm starting to wonder if there really is a problem with primary air supply, maybe even in the control mechanism.

Again, I'm not familiar with your stove, but maybe the air shouldn't be closed all the way at all. What happens if you keep the air up a little throughout the cycle?

Well, it'll mostly chew through wood. I just got home from work. So i can load it and only close it about halfway to see how it behaves