My basement must not be insulated enough BB, cause i still hear her TV, Funny how she can hear me mumbling about my in-laws under my breath though!
Freestanding in bedroom?
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My basement must not be insulated enough BB, cause i still hear her TV, Funny how she can hear me mumbling about my in-laws under my breath though!
!!
elkimmeg said:
Is not the Cold Air Return a source of combustion air??
I'm a "violator" who had a woodstove installed in our large
bedroom. Also had a CO detector present in there. Never
went off. Also noticed when turned-on the circulation fan on
our furnace that the temp. inside began to drop like a rock.
I surmised that my furnace brings in fresh air from outside
to heat... and there is our source of combustion air, even
when the fan wasn't running.....
Rob
Rob we had this discussion on the old forum nothing has change. You took it upon yourself to install it in a bedroom and now are posting here to some how justify
your illegal installation. Because a co alarm has not gone off yet in your situation IT's ok to promote continued bedroom location installations?
Could it be you are a seasoned wood burner but not all are, that is where troubles can arise? I bet that illegal install was never permitted?
Are you also promoting installations without permitting? You seem to be able to type, I assume you must have read the manual. I know there is required language in every
manual that states, code compliance and permitting. Did you miss that section? What do you gain by admitting you illedally installed a stove in a prohibited location?
The purpose of a return is to remove air, so how does it supply air? You mean you have to run your furnace or blower, to supply combustion air, while you opperate the illegal stove?
your illegal installation. Because a co alarm has not gone off yet in your situation IT's ok to promote continued bedroom location installations?
Could it be you are a seasoned wood burner but not all are, that is where troubles can arise? I bet that illegal install was never permitted?
Are you also promoting installations without permitting? You seem to be able to type, I assume you must have read the manual. I know there is required language in every
manual that states, code compliance and permitting. Did you miss that section? What do you gain by admitting you illedally installed a stove in a prohibited location?
The purpose of a return is to remove air, so how does it supply air? You mean you have to run your furnace or blower, to supply combustion air, while you opperate the illegal stove?
BrotherBart said:
Hmmm, I bought the Quad from one of their branch stores. Looks like an over ambitious marketing department copy/pasted info for the Cordova gas stove. Oh well, would you like a hot-tub to go with the stove?
Rob From Wisconsin said:
Risky business Rob. The fact that nothing has happened so far is no guarantee for tomorrow. What does your insurance company think of this installation? Things are fine until they break.
This is kind of like the person that is chirping because they've rigged up a remote starter for their car... in the attached garage. No harm to anyone after 2 years. Great, until someone forgot to close the connecting door to the kitchen. Darwin has an award for this, but sadly it's usually handed out posthumously.
If you intend to scoff safety, well that is your business, but I wouldn't brag about it or suggest that it is a good or safe practice to the public. And no, the cold air return is not a source of combustion air. The furnace is merely "circulating" air in the house envelope. And if the power goes out in the middle of the night, the furnace isn't doing a damn thing.
Rob From Wisconsin said:
No, the cold air return is the exact opposite of an air supply - it sucks air FROM the room!
It could be construed that, when the furnace is not on, it might allow air from other rooms to be drawn into that room, but that is surely not the intention nor a function which is documented in any way.
CO detector would not usually go off with wood stove....
As mentioned, there are a number of potential problems with space heaters in the bedroom - some of these are contradicted by massive bedrooms (say 500 sq feet or more).
Combustion air
too much heat
"smoking" in the bedroom (heck, if a fire is gonna start, better it be somewhere else and give you time)
Clearance problems - blankets, sheets, clothes thrown about, etc.
There are always exceptions and interpretations of code - for instance, I know of a guy who has 30 cars INSIDE his house! I'll bet there are some codes about that somewhere.....I doubt the car manuals allow it!
Maybe someday we'll get more industry test people and engineers here so they can explain the exact logic behind these codes....although I strongly suspect it is the list above.
The demand has probably been low enough that manufacturers have not petitioned the lab to test in a bedroom and, for instance, label them as "not for use in sleeping areas of less than 600 sq. ft) or something like that.
Best bet for someone who wants to install such a unit is to check with the manufacturers for advice and then go to their building official with manuals, literature, etc. - they are the best ones to determine if your exception is really an exception.
Note, certain gas units are bedroom approved...Jotul Lillehamer for instance.
STRANGELY ENOUGH, HearthStone says on their site:
Can I install a stove in my bedroom?
Most building codes allow woodstoves to be installed in bedrooms. Gas stoves are usually required to be Direct-Vent models. Most codes do not allow Vent-Free stoves over 10,000 BTUs to be installed in bedrooms. Check with your local building inspector for requirements and limitations in your area.
-------------
MSG, time for a phone call to your contacts!
I thought someone had mentioned the fact that if a stove was installed in a bedroom, well lets see...... without outside air, the stove would be removing air from the room while you are sleeping, essentially suffocating the occupants that are sleeping. So what good would that CO detector do in this situation? Me Thinks a "lack o' Oxygen" detector is what needs to be invented :sick:
I know they are not allowed but really have trouble understanding the reasoning. I recently added a upstairs master suite. 25'x30' with 15' high catherdral ceilings. While sifting through the information at town hall, it too states no wood pellet coal or non vented/none direct vent gas appliances are allowed in a bedroom. I didnt want the mess of a woodstove in the bedroom or the hassle of lugging wood upstairs so I went with a direct vent gas stove. Thing that doesnt make sense to me, is that a regular fireplace is allowed in a bedroom (at least in my town) and a woodstove coal or non vented gas stove is allowed in all other areas. So does that mean that people who may have one of these items in "lets say a 13x13 living room with french doors situation, would be ok, but a large bedroom is a deathtrap? I dont know about you guys, but I frequently fall asleep in my living room, and I assume people with do fall asleep in rooms described above that have stoves in them and nothing happens. Pesonally, it seems to me that your house would have to be as tight as a "tupperware container" with the lid on it to do any real harm.. I really think common sense should play more of a part in the making of "codes" etc.
MANY direct vents as well as even vent-free (10,000 BTU) are all allowed in bedroom.
A regular fireplace is allowed? Strange.....you are right.
Yes, ideally the codes should give the room side, area open to other rooms, need for outside air, etc..... keep in mind that most bedrooms are small and most living areas are open to other areas.
Personally, I would not allow ANY vent free, pellet stove or coal stove in bedrooms.....also, would not allow open fireplaces unless it was a massive room with other opening and outside air.
A regular fireplace is allowed? Strange.....you are right.
Yes, ideally the codes should give the room side, area open to other rooms, need for outside air, etc..... keep in mind that most bedrooms are small and most living areas are open to other areas.
Personally, I would not allow ANY vent free, pellet stove or coal stove in bedrooms.....also, would not allow open fireplaces unless it was a massive room with other opening and outside air.
Its a moot point here. Local codes ONLY allow direct vent gas, no wood or pellet of anysize, and absoluty no vent free of any size. This conversation is to dependent on local codes to have a real conversation about it...
Codes for bedrooms can be a bit quirky here's a little electrical one for you. About 8 years ago all outlets in bedrooms were required to be protected by either GFCI or a GFCB..... More recently about 3 years that code now requires these outlets to be AFCI. Does anyone out there have these?????? Nope but you should....... :-/
Ground faults and Arc faults their not just for kitchens and baths anymore
Ground faults and Arc faults their not just for kitchens and baths anymore
The International Codes are not local but approved by all 50 states
Some states may have modifided codes but .the base body of code is the Internation code base Be it for plumbing, gas, electrical,, mechanical or building. So here are some of the codes that pertain to the bedroom issue Found in the 2006 International residential codes Mechanical section for one and two familly dewllings this should help determine the issue
COMBUSTION AIR
M1701.4 Prohibited sources.
Combustion air shall not be obtained from an area in
which flammable vapors present a hazard. Fuel-fired appliances
shall not obtain combustion air from any of the following
rooms or spaces:
1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
APPLIANCE LOCATION
(303.1) General. Appliances shall be located as
required by this section, specific requirements elsewhere in
this code and the conditions of the equipment and appliance
(303.3) Prohibited locations. Appliances shall not
be located in sleeping rooms, bathrooms, toilet rooms, storage
closets or surgical rooms, or in a space that opens only into such
rooms or spaces, except where the installation complies with
one of the following:
1. The appliance is a direct-vent appliance installed in
accordance with the conditions of the listing and the
manufacturer’s instructions.
2. Vented room heaters, wall furnaces, vented decorative
appliances, vented gas fireplaces, vented gas fireplace
heaters and decorative appliances for installation in
vented solid fuel-burning fireplaces are installed in
rooms that meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5.
3. Asingle wall-mounted unvented room heater is installed
in a bathroom and such unvented room heater is
equipped as specified in Section G2445.6 and has aan
input rating not greater than 6,000 Btu/h (1.76 kW). The
bathroom shall meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5.
4. Asingle wall-mounted unvented room heater is installed
in a bedroom and such unvented room heater is equipped
as specified in Section G2445.6 and has an input rating
not greater than 10,000 Btu/h (2.93 kW). The bedroom
shall meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5.
5. The appliance is installed in a room or space that opens
only into a bedroom or bathroom, and such room or
space is used for no other purpose and is provided with a
solid weather-stripped door equipped with an approved
self-closing device. All combustion air shall be taken
directly from the outdoors in accordance with Section
Some states may have modifided codes but .the base body of code is the Internation code base Be it for plumbing, gas, electrical,, mechanical or building. So here are some of the codes that pertain to the bedroom issue Found in the 2006 International residential codes Mechanical section for one and two familly dewllings this should help determine the issue
COMBUSTION AIR
M1701.4 Prohibited sources.
Combustion air shall not be obtained from an area in
which flammable vapors present a hazard. Fuel-fired appliances
shall not obtain combustion air from any of the following
rooms or spaces:
1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
APPLIANCE LOCATION
(303.1) General. Appliances shall be located as
required by this section, specific requirements elsewhere in
this code and the conditions of the equipment and appliance
(303.3) Prohibited locations. Appliances shall not
be located in sleeping rooms, bathrooms, toilet rooms, storage
closets or surgical rooms, or in a space that opens only into such
rooms or spaces, except where the installation complies with
one of the following:
1. The appliance is a direct-vent appliance installed in
accordance with the conditions of the listing and the
manufacturer’s instructions.
2. Vented room heaters, wall furnaces, vented decorative
appliances, vented gas fireplaces, vented gas fireplace
heaters and decorative appliances for installation in
vented solid fuel-burning fireplaces are installed in
rooms that meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5.
3. Asingle wall-mounted unvented room heater is installed
in a bathroom and such unvented room heater is
equipped as specified in Section G2445.6 and has aan
input rating not greater than 6,000 Btu/h (1.76 kW). The
bathroom shall meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5.
4. Asingle wall-mounted unvented room heater is installed
in a bedroom and such unvented room heater is equipped
as specified in Section G2445.6 and has an input rating
not greater than 10,000 Btu/h (2.93 kW). The bedroom
shall meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5.
5. The appliance is installed in a room or space that opens
only into a bedroom or bathroom, and such room or
space is used for no other purpose and is provided with a
solid weather-stripped door equipped with an approved
self-closing device. All combustion air shall be taken
directly from the outdoors in accordance with Section
OK, LOT of exceptions.
Now tell us the volume requirements as per:
2."that meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5. "
So, #2 says vented room heaters.....and just about anything else. It seems to suggest, as I mentioned, that if the area is large enough in size (volume), that it is oK....
Then
#5 allows for many installations in a wing off a bedroom as long as outside air.
With this many exceptions, bedroom installations are certainly a reality and not something to say "no" about without studying the specific job and appliance.
Now tell us the volume requirements as per:
2."that meet the required volume criteria of Section
G2407.5. "
So, #2 says vented room heaters.....and just about anything else. It seems to suggest, as I mentioned, that if the area is large enough in size (volume), that it is oK....
Then
#5 allows for many installations in a wing off a bedroom as long as outside air.
With this many exceptions, bedroom installations are certainly a reality and not something to say "no" about without studying the specific job and appliance.
The self closing door is the problem though.... My wife would have it propped open with something.Webmaster said:
;-)
Craig If I posted the entire Internation codes you server would be down permanetly from over load, plus with a 6000 character
limit, I would have to post every 20 minuts for the next month to get all
Ok the 2" code they refer to mind if I put it in my own words?
In the situation of combustion air, ajoining rooms may be counted in the vollume if they can comunicate with one another. If a wood louver door is installed
one has to calculate the free air passage capabilities.
for every 1000 appliance imput btus, 50 cubic feet of combustion air is needed. If the room space is not enough vollume then there are two solutions an outside air feed or getting it
from inside. a
An adjoining room can be used. Back to the louver door, for communications sake every 2" air space in that louver door, will allow enough air to support 1000 BTUs.
Wood lover doors do not allow the entire door size to pass threw. For example the door is 3'/6' 18 total sq ft only 25% of the wood louver door can be used for free air space
that door space will allow for enough free air flow to support another 324 btus. That is if there is enough vollume in the adjopining room.
Now if one wanted to keep that door, one could satisfy the need by cutting in high low metal louvers in the wall ,to allow free pasage of combustion air. Again 2" free air space will allow enough air to support 1000 BTUS. wWth metal louvers the restriction factor is only 25%, meaning, the louver is 10"10" 75 inches of free communication air can pass threw it a high and low 10 /10 louver set will allow air transmission to support 75,000 BTUS. Again the roon it is drawing the air from has to have the vollume to draw
Thats the 2" rule
Imagine walking into a playroom build out and figuring in my head the requirement before I sign the permit.
Is there enought combustion air for the dryer, gas hot water heater, wood stove, and furnace? We all know the 8/8 partitioned off boiler room containing the furnace and hot water heater. is not going to cut it
limit, I would have to post every 20 minuts for the next month to get all
Ok the 2" code they refer to mind if I put it in my own words?
In the situation of combustion air, ajoining rooms may be counted in the vollume if they can comunicate with one another. If a wood louver door is installed
one has to calculate the free air passage capabilities.
for every 1000 appliance imput btus, 50 cubic feet of combustion air is needed. If the room space is not enough vollume then there are two solutions an outside air feed or getting it
from inside. a
An adjoining room can be used. Back to the louver door, for communications sake every 2" air space in that louver door, will allow enough air to support 1000 BTUs.
Wood lover doors do not allow the entire door size to pass threw. For example the door is 3'/6' 18 total sq ft only 25% of the wood louver door can be used for free air space
that door space will allow for enough free air flow to support another 324 btus. That is if there is enough vollume in the adjopining room.
Now if one wanted to keep that door, one could satisfy the need by cutting in high low metal louvers in the wall ,to allow free pasage of combustion air. Again 2" free air space will allow enough air to support 1000 BTUS. wWth metal louvers the restriction factor is only 25%, meaning, the louver is 10"10" 75 inches of free communication air can pass threw it a high and low 10 /10 louver set will allow air transmission to support 75,000 BTUS. Again the roon it is drawing the air from has to have the vollume to draw
Thats the 2" rule
Imagine walking into a playroom build out and figuring in my head the requirement before I sign the permit.
Is there enought combustion air for the dryer, gas hot water heater, wood stove, and furnace? We all know the 8/8 partitioned off boiler room containing the furnace and hot water heater. is not going to cut it
hmmm.....heres a hijack......and Im cringing before I say this....howza bout you bring in outside air for combustion? I know you cant put a pellet stove in a Mobile Home bedroom, but as far as I know, with the Harmans anyways, you can do it as long as you bring in outside air........
The bottom line is, the stove does not have to be approved the room does. When ya gonna start measuring intake air in family rooms?
In the field, I have to make judgement calls all the time. The harder calls deal with life safety issues,
there is less compromising. I look at situations 3 ways as a code official. a contractor and homeowner.
I weigh every decision. and choose the battles to fight. Not all situations can be governed by written code, one has to have common sense.
the other important thing is to be consistant you can't let one guy get away with something one time the enforce the same issue to another.
When code changes, I tell the contractors when enforcement will reflect the changes. If it is not a life safety issue I may allow an HVAC system to pass but tell them next time
it will not, issues like sealing ducts. Concerning issues to combustiables. Usually I can jugde the distances by eye or count bricks.
I do not look for that 1/2" but if something appears wrong the ruler will confirm it.
I'm a very easy guy to get along with when the job is done right.
there is less compromising. I look at situations 3 ways as a code official. a contractor and homeowner.
I weigh every decision. and choose the battles to fight. Not all situations can be governed by written code, one has to have common sense.
the other important thing is to be consistant you can't let one guy get away with something one time the enforce the same issue to another.
When code changes, I tell the contractors when enforcement will reflect the changes. If it is not a life safety issue I may allow an HVAC system to pass but tell them next time
it will not, issues like sealing ducts. Concerning issues to combustiables. Usually I can jugde the distances by eye or count bricks.
I do not look for that 1/2" but if something appears wrong the ruler will confirm it.
I'm a very easy guy to get along with when the job is done right.
GVA said:Codes for bedrooms can be a bit quirky here's a little electrical one for you. About 8 years ago all outlets in bedrooms were required to be protected by either GFCI or a GFCB..... More recently about 3 years that code now requires these outlets to be AFCI. Does anyone out there have these?????? Nope but you should....... :-/
Ground faults and Arc faults their not just for kitchens and baths anymore
I do! I n the new master bedroom. Had to after Oct 2004. Again, not to be against code, but cant say I really agree understand the "logic" behind the Arc fault protector in bedrooms. I do understand what they do and how they work, and probably would be a benefit for the whole house to have them, but why is it necessary in a bedroom and not a hall/dining room, living room etc. I understand that you are sleeping there and it protects you, but in my case I have two ways out of my bedroom. The stairs or the window which is on the second floor. At the bottom of the stairs is my living room, so the unprotected living room could be stoking up one hell of a fire and Im still in trouble upstairs. I asked the inspector the reasoning behind it and he jokingly said, "I dont know, maybe they feel the bed might be a rockin and damage a lamp cord or somethin"!
Most people now have a tv in the bedroom now add to that a cable or sat receiver usually they are plugged into extension cords, added to that maybe an electric blanket, waterbed heater, alarm clocks, lamps, maybe a stereo etc.Dylan said:Michael6268 said:GVA said:Codes for bedrooms can be a bit quirky here's a little electrical one for you. About 8 years ago all outlets in bedrooms were required to be protected by either GFCI or a GFCB..... More recently about 3 years that code now requires these outlets to be AFCI. Does anyone out there have these?????? Nope but you should....... :-/
Ground faults and Arc faults their not just for kitchens and baths anymore
I asked the inspector the reasoning behind it and he jokingly said, "I dont know, maybe they feel the bed might be a rockin and damage a lamp cord or somethin"!
I think it has a helluva lot more to do with lobbyists for crafts-people arranging for the enactment of legislation/regulations that help guarantee work for their membership.
Lets think about what happens to the average homeowner. Not many people know what size extension cords are required to run to protect it from overheating melting and setting the carpet on fire. Look around your homes those little 2 wire lamp cords that have 3 outlets on the end of them tend to get overloaded. My kids used them all the time I cut them up and threw them out then added more outlets around their rooms and protected them with a AFCB.
Getting back to it, bedroom fires went up nation wide and the code required GFCI's to be installed These were already protecting wet locations and did the job required.
But AFCI's were invented to address this problem.
GFCI's sense voltage to ground
AFCI's sense an arcing or overloading condition.
:blank:
elkimmeg said:
OK, so the guy with a 500 square foot room and 15 ft (we'll use 12 ft) in case it is sloped, would have 6,000 Cubic Feet, or enough air to support 120,000 BTU. (2,000 BTU for every 100 CF).
So a nice little Nordic QT, which maxes out at 27,000 BTU would be no problem. Even being VERY conservative and cutting the figures in 1/2 would be a mid-size stove of 60-70,000 MAX, which is usually running at 20-30K anyway.
Does that sound like a good call?
I would personally not put a pellet stove in my own sleeping area, but that is because of experiences I have had with hopper burn back, etc. - And I think smell and dust could be an issue...perhaps even more than with woodstove because of the loading, cleaning, scraping, etc.
BeGreen said:
A whole lot of blind retentiveness going on here....
Yes, my installation was inspected twice (2) by my carrier.
And yes, my installation was inspected by a home inspector.
And no, our township have a building inspector for anything but
new home construction.
Do you know how large my bedroom is??
Do you know how small (BTU's) the stove is??
Gas stove??
I would personally feel worried about a gas leak/explosion in
my sleeping quarters than I would with a wood stove.
My personal opinion.....even if it be deemed "illegal" to lean that way....
Rob From Alcatraz....... :coolgrin:
The code is in an above post if you missed it the last time I told you. Tell me since I have very strong connections with VC where is your centry listed for bedroom approval?
Michael6268 said:GVA said:Codes for bedrooms can be a bit quirky here's a little electrical one for you. About 8 years ago all outlets in bedrooms were required to be protected by either GFCI or a GFCB..... More recently about 3 years that code now requires these outlets to be AFCI. Does anyone out there have these?????? Nope but you should....... :-/
Ground faults and Arc faults their not just for kitchens and baths anymore
I do! I n the new master bedroom. Had to after Oct 2004. Again, not to be against code, but cant say I really agree understand the "logic" behind the Arc fault protector in bedrooms. I do understand what they do and how they work, and probably would be a benefit for the whole house to have them, but why is it necessary in a bedroom and not a hall/dining room, living room etc. I understand that you are sleeping there and it protects you, but in my case I have two ways out of my bedroom. The stairs or the window which is on the second floor. At the bottom of the stairs is my living room, so the unprotected living room could be stoking up one hell of a fire and Im still in trouble upstairs. I asked the inspector the reasoning behind it and he jokingly said, "I dont know, maybe they feel the bed might be a rockin and damage a lamp cord or somethin"!
oops
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