Geospring bad reviews

[Longstreet]

Can someone convince me why we shouldn't be looking at the Marathon heaters instead?

http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html

I know a HPWH is more "efficient" but shouldn't expected lifespan and maintenance be factored in? $120 for new elements is basically the only cost you will ever incur. If you are putting a HPWH into the landfill every 10-15 years (warranty looks to be 10), are you really even doing anything better for the environment over one of the marathon ones?

 

[woodgeek]

A good question.... The difference in elec usage between the HPWH and the marathon might be 1500-2000 kWh/year. Let's be conservative and say they just make their warranty period, 10 years typically (GE hopefully has good data on their units, and was hoping to turn a profit when it set the warranty period). So that is 15000 kWh. At US average rates ($.15/kWh) that is $2250 is lower energy bills, conservatively. Given that the HWH unit costs are not all that different....this easily pays for a replacement every 10 years. And this does not factor in (1) elec will get more expensive (maybe) (2) the units will get more reliable and (3) they may get more efficient (after 10 years).

As for sending one to the landfill....15,000 kWh corresponds to about 10 tonnes of CO2 at typical US production mix, the same as burning ~800 gallons of gasoline, diesel or fuel oil. The raw resources and energy required to produce the unit (remember steel is highly recyclable) likely have a smaller C footprint than that of the energy saved (e.g. based on the mass of the unit versus the mass of the FF saved).

One concern is the refrigerant, mine has R-134a, which is a potent greenhouse gas. If your unit leaked out a couple pounds of refrigerant, or did so several times with replacement at the end of the life cycle, then GHG effects might partially negate CO2 savings. IMO this is a non-issue....if your system leaks, don't get it serially refilled, replace it. Also, the lifetime of refrigerant in the atmosphere is << than that of CO2, it'll be gone by 2100, and it doesn't acidify the ocean. Hopefully whoever hauls it away at end of life recovers the refrigerant.

 

[CenterTree]

Can someone convince me why we shouldn't be looking at the Marathon heaters instead?

http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html

I know a HPWH is more "efficient" but shouldn't expected lifespan and maintenance be factored in? $120 for new elements is basically the only cost you will ever incur. If you are putting a HPWH into the landfill every 10-15 years (warranty looks to be 10), are you really even doing anything better for the environment over one of the marathon ones?

I like the idea of the Marathon also. (as far as longevity goes).
That is why I would NOT consider buying a HPWH that was not a STAINLESS STEEL unit.

The Marathon seems to have the best idea (poly) for anti-corrosion... however it still is no more efficient than a regular metal water tank.

The HPWH have an energy factor up to 2.34.
The Marathon is only still at .93.

My biggest hesitation in buying a HPWH right now is the maintenance or failure rate of such units.

What good is an expensive, energy efficient system if it is often in need of costly repair?

Still undecided here.

 

[CenterTree]

Also. The Marathon is not even "EnergyStar" qualified,
therefore, eliminating any rebates from utility companies here.

To qualify for rebates the unit must have a rating of at least .95

The highest Marathon is .94.

 

[Longstreet]

A good question.... The difference in elec usage between the HPWH and the marathon might be 1500-2000 kWh/year. Let's be conservative and say they just make their warranty period, 10 years typically (GE hopefully has good data on their units, and was hoping to turn a profit when it set the warranty period). So that is 15000 kWh. At US average rates ($.15/kWh) that is $2250 is lower energy bills, conservatively. Given that the HWH unit costs are not all that different....this easily pays for a replacement every 10 years. And this does not factor in (1) elec will get more expensive (maybe) (2) the units will get more reliable and (3) they may get more efficient (after 10 years).

As for sending one to the landfill....15,000 kWh corresponds to about 10 tonnes of CO2 at typical US production mix, the same as burning ~800 gallons of gasoline, diesel or fuel oil. The raw resources and energy required to produce the unit (remember steel is highly recyclable) likely have a smaller C footprint than that of the energy saved (e.g. based on the mass of the unit versus the mass of the FF saved).

One concern is the refrigerant, mine has R-134a, which is a potent greenhouse gas. If your unit leaked out a couple pounds of refrigerant, or did so several times with replacement at the end of the life cycle, then GHG effects might partially negate CO2 savings. IMO this is a non-issue....if your system leaks, don't get it serially refilled, replace it. Also, the lifetime of refrigerant in the atmosphere is << than that of CO2, it'll be gone by 2100, and it doesn't acidify the ocean. Hopefully whoever hauls it away at end of life recovers the refrigerant.

Thank you, that is exactly the kind of in-depth analyst I was hoping to get!

Also. The Marathon is not even "EnergyStar" qualified,
therefore, eliminating any rebates from utility companies here.

To qualify for rebates the unit must have a rating of at least .95

The highest Marathon is .94.

The Marathon is eligible for a $525 rebate for Georgia Power customers switching from Nat Gas (like myself), so it is obviously ymmv. My rate is about 10.5kWh cents all in, so the efficiency gap closes a little in that regard.

 

[CenterTree]

The Marathon is eligible for a $525 rebate for Georgia Power customers switching from Nat Gas (like myself), so it is obviously ymmv. My rate is about 10.5kWh cents all in, so the efficiency gap closes a little in that regard.

WOW! Then it seems to be a "no-brainer" for you. You can get the poly Marathon for the same price as a regular steel model it seems. Cool.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

My regular $199.00 30 Gal WH works so well, and i dont even see a difference in my electric bill when i turn it on for the summer taking care of a 5 person household. My guess is it uses no more electric than the fans and pumps on my boiler which dont run in the summer.

 

[DBoon]

Can someone convince me why we shouldn't be looking at the Marathon heaters instead?

I have a Marathon HWH with a Geyser heat pump. Works pretty well. I use the Marathon upper heating elements in the winter when the basement gets too cold to run the Geyser.

A Marathon won't save you money on your electric bill. Other things, like building a heat trap and adding more insulation to the tank, will do more to save energy. Of course, the Geyser cuts my usage in half when I run it in spring, fall, and summer.

I bought the Marathon so that I would never have to worry about a leaky water heater tank flooding my basement. And I bought it once and it should last through three or four regular water heaters.

 

[Brian26]

For those in CT you can get this at Lowes's now for $599 with a $400 rebate from UI or CLP. Might be able to use a $300 federal one as well witch would basically pay you to install it. That price only comes up with a CT zip code.

I put mine in over a year ago. Zero issues with it. Got it for less than $200 with utility/federal rebates. Saved me around $20+ a month on my electric bill. It's already paid for itself and I am ahead. I also bought the 10 year full labor/parts warranty for Lowes for $99. I love mine as it also dehumidifies my basement.

The savings are pretty incredible. Uses 550 watts in heat pump mode compared to using 4500 on regular electric element.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I think ill wait till they have a better track record to even consider one.

 

[AK13]

[quote="CenterTree, post: 1721430, member: 6613"
The Marathon seems to have the best idea (poly) for anti-corrosion... however it still is no more efficient than a regular metal water tank.
[/quote]

I disagree about poly being best for anti-corrosion. I believe that Hubbell has better solution with their concrete lined tanks. Though I will admit they are a bit heavy

http://www.hubbellheaters.com/model/pbx/

http://www.hubbellheaters.com/hydrastone-cement/

 

[Brian26]

I think ill wait till they have a better track record to even consider one.

At least here in CT with utility incentives it's a no brainer. You can basically get one for almost free. 400$ local utility rebate plus $300 federal.

If you buy it from Lowes you can get a $99.97 service plan that covers everything.

Traditional Water Heater Protection
Traditional water heaters are typically covered by a manufacturer’s warranty, which provides parts and labor protection for one year and parts-only protection after the first year. A Lowe’s Extended Protection Plan offers additional labor coverage not provided under the manufacturer's warranty. Plan starts after manufacturer’s labor warranty ends, if any. If the manufacturer does not offer a labor warranty, which is typical of tankless water heaters, Plan starts on date of purchase.‡

• We’ll cover repairs due to power surge from date of plan purchase.
• We'll cover the labor costs of reinstallation from the date of plan purchase if your water heater can’t be repaired and needs to be replaced.
• If your product can't be fixed, we'll replace it.

 

[woodgeek]

The wary should also consider that if the compressor fails, you can switch the unit to heating elements until the compressor can be serviced...you would presumably still have HW.

Also, when the tank is 'glass-lined steel" the life depends on the anode rod. I believe the geosprings have a heavy-duty magnesium rod, thus the long warranty. The bad news is that it is hard to replace DIY (at least in the Gen 1).

My AO Smith has a powered, rather than sacrificial anode, so it should last more than 10 years, rather than until the anode is rotted away.

 

[Brian26]

The wary should also consider that if the compressor fails, you can switch the unit to heating elements until the compressor can be serviced...you would presumably still have HW.

Also, when the tank is 'glass-lined steel" the life depends on the anode rod. I believe the geosprings have a heavy-duty magnesium rod, thus the long warranty. The bad news is that it is hard to replace DIY (at least in the Gen 1).

My AO Smith has a powered, rather than sacrificial anode, so it should last more than 10 years, rather than until the anode is rotted away.

The geospring's do have a heavy duty anode rod.

Its really amazing how much less power is used in heat pump only mode compared to running the 4500 watt elements. I have an Efergy whole house energy monitor an mine pulls around 500 watts when running in heat pump only mode.

My girlfriend and I can take back to back showers and the compressor will run for 1-2 hours depending on the basement air temp.

Here in CT electricity is crazy expensive. 2nd or 3rd highest in the us at around .20-.22 KWH. Another thing to keep in mind that the advertised savings are in hybrid mode were it uses both heat pump and electric elements. I have found ours to cost around $6-8 dollars a month to run in heat pump only mode.

As a comparison my previous home had a natural gas fired conventional 40 gallon tank. The connection charge alone was $15 a month just to be connected.

Also, I get water in my basement and have humidity issues. Even bigger savings for us not having to run a dehumidifier. I believe that humidity also increases the efficiency as well.

 

[maple1]

The wary should also consider that if the compressor fails, you can switch the unit to heating elements until the compressor can be serviced...you would presumably still have HW.

Also, when the tank is 'glass-lined steel" the life depends on the anode rod. I believe the geosprings have a heavy-duty magnesium rod, thus the long warranty. The bad news is that it is hard to replace DIY (at least in the Gen 1).

My AO Smith has a powered, rather than sacrificial anode, so it should last more than 10 years, rather than until the anode is rotted away.

About anode rods - is their life related to how much the electric elements get used? I was under the impression that anode rods really come into play with electric elements in the water - so if they never or rarely get used, the rods would last a long time? Or do I have the wrong impression?

 

[woodgeek]

That was not my understanding...I thought that it depended somewhat on water chemistry....why some folks get very short lives with their HWHs. Basically a chemical reaction at the anode keeps the glass liner at a potential where galvanic attack will not occur....until the anode is gone. In a powered anode that voltage is maintained with an electrical supply, rather than a galvanic reaction on the anode rod. So it is 'permanent'.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Since i only need to heat water electrically about 4 months a year, my good old conventional electric WH fills the bill.

 

[sloeffle]

If they made a HPHW with a poly tank ( aka Marathon ) I would be sold. I can remember as a kid hearing my dad cussing up a storm. He walked down to the basement and there was water everywhere from the hot water heater springing a leak. We then spent the rest of the day replacing it. That is for the birds IMHO.

I will pay the 20$ a month to run my Marathon vs losing my 15k furnace and all of the other stuff in my basement.

 

[Ashful]

The big trouble I see with many of these add-on HPWH's is the method by which they connect to your existing tank creates an enormous restriction. Why would I want to put a 1/2" dip tube coaxially inside my 3/4" outlet fitting? The house was plumbed with 3/4" because that's what I need to keep up with multiple appliances running simultaneously, not on a whim without reason.

Has anyone seen any add-on HPWH that does not rely on a similar restrictive hookup?

 

[velvetfoot]

The coaxial pipe is not in the outlet, it's in the drain.

 

[Ashful]

The coaxial pipe is not in the outlet, it's in the drain.

Whether it's on the outlet or on the incoming cold water, it's still a direct restriction on the water received at your respective appliances. We have three showers, 2 tubs, 14 sinks, 2 dishwashers, clothes washer, etc. Not uncommon that three or four of these appliances are running at the same time.

 

[maple1]

Whether it's on the outlet or on the incoming cold water, it's still a direct restriction on the water received at your respective appliances. We have three showers, 2 tubs, 14 sinks, 2 dishwashers, clothes washer, etc. Not uncommon that three or four of these appliances are running at the same time.

He said it's in the drain.

If it's in the drain, it's only a restriction when you're draining the tank.

 

[mellow]

On the Geospring specs it says 3/4" inlet/outlet.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Whether it's on the outlet or on the incoming cold water, it's still a direct restriction on the water received at your respective appliances. We have three showers, 2 tubs, 14 sinks, 2 dishwashers, clothes washer, etc. Not uncommon that three or four of these appliances are running at the same time.

Even 3/4 " may not keep up with that combination. A pex array with a manifold and enough pressure would do a good job.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

If they made a HPHW with a poly tank ( aka Marathon ) I would be sold. t.

What makes them so expensive. Is it just the fact that a poly tank cost so much more than a steel one? Home depot sells them but only carries 50 gal and larger. Way too big for me.