Got a new roof put on last week...
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The chimney itself was installed properly 4 years ago as far as i can tell. No issues with insulation for this install.
My guess is that the roofers couldnt tell that it was off center being only on the outside of the house. They probably should have sent someone up into the attic to hold it centered.
My guess is that the roofers couldnt tell that it was off center being only on the outside of the house. They probably should have sent someone up into the attic to hold it centered.
The chimney pipe should be plumb. Put a level on it to check. Also, make sure it is still locked into the support box. The insulation shield is important. Roofers can leave debris falling down into the attic space. You don't want any wood tinder or sawdust lying in the support box around the base of the chimney pipe after their work is done.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
What a pain to fix though. Cutting that hole bigger with a blade could result in the blade hitting the cone just above the roofing. The cone hits the roofing usually right at the 2” clearance line. This job would best be done from below after removing the chimney once you verify it’s vertical.
Be sure the pipe is plumb and locked in at the bottom.
Be sure they properly sealed the storm collar up above the cone.
When done, vacuum out the ceiling support box if anything drops in there.
These guys are sloppy. Did they screw up the other details. Any exposed nails?
Be sure the pipe is plumb and locked in at the bottom.
Be sure they properly sealed the storm collar up above the cone.
When done, vacuum out the ceiling support box if anything drops in there.
These guys are sloppy. Did they screw up the other details. Any exposed nails?
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
("hijacking" this thread because my case is similar and does not really warrant its own thread.)
So, my oil boiler chimney runs through a chase with walls (counter clockwise) to the outside wall of our home, our bedroom, a closet (from which the chase was subtracted), and a bathroom. From touching the walls in my bedroom, comparing the outside wall in our bedroom with the wall to the chase, I deduced there was no insulation on those internal chase walls. As the chimney chase is open to the attic (I insulated up there), and the attic is open to the outside, all the cold air in winter sinks down there and stays... Bathroom wall section condenses up easily too.
So I opened it up now with the intention of insulating the walls - going to use some glass fiber I have left over, but will put wood strips across to avoid it sagging down against the chimney.
The roof was replaced two years ago (after I insulated the attic). Access to the chimney from the attic is nearly impossible because of the slope of the roof.
Now, with a better view up along the chimney, see what I see?
The clearances to the studs are all good, but that shield foil is touching the chimney. (The black stuff appears to be close in the pic, but from looking with my eyes it seems to be ok.)
This is a very reputable, established roofing company. They already made other mistakes near the gutters, and were sloppy (with drip edges missing 2" sections near corners of the roof, and one 10 ft section having no drip edge at all), and now this. Hugely disappointed in them.
I also found pieces of shingles in the box where the chimney goes through the floor to the basement where the boiler is. I.e. solid oil right in the clearance zone.
Pisses me off.
Going to call them back. Again.
So, my oil boiler chimney runs through a chase with walls (counter clockwise) to the outside wall of our home, our bedroom, a closet (from which the chase was subtracted), and a bathroom. From touching the walls in my bedroom, comparing the outside wall in our bedroom with the wall to the chase, I deduced there was no insulation on those internal chase walls. As the chimney chase is open to the attic (I insulated up there), and the attic is open to the outside, all the cold air in winter sinks down there and stays... Bathroom wall section condenses up easily too.
So I opened it up now with the intention of insulating the walls - going to use some glass fiber I have left over, but will put wood strips across to avoid it sagging down against the chimney.
The roof was replaced two years ago (after I insulated the attic). Access to the chimney from the attic is nearly impossible because of the slope of the roof.
Now, with a better view up along the chimney, see what I see?
The clearances to the studs are all good, but that shield foil is touching the chimney. (The black stuff appears to be close in the pic, but from looking with my eyes it seems to be ok.)
This is a very reputable, established roofing company. They already made other mistakes near the gutters, and were sloppy (with drip edges missing 2" sections near corners of the roof, and one 10 ft section having no drip edge at all), and now this. Hugely disappointed in them.
I also found pieces of shingles in the box where the chimney goes through the floor to the basement where the boiler is. I.e. solid oil right in the clearance zone.
Pisses me off.
Going to call them back. Again.
Ctwoodtick
Minister of Fire
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
So, they reply that the clearance is to the wood frame around the chimney and not the roofing...
Of course that's wrong (as can be read on the Metal-Fab sticker (1.5" to combustibles - not 2", which surprised me, but the 1.5" is only good "if all chimney components are labeled to "MAX" - that section is, but as I don't know all components are so, I'm going with 2").
However, I can't access the NFPA code (need to sign up etc.). So does someone have a (verbatim) quote to from the NFPA about class A chimneys regarding clearances? Or does it just say "refer to mfg"?
Of course that's wrong (as can be read on the Metal-Fab sticker (1.5" to combustibles - not 2", which surprised me, but the 1.5" is only good "if all chimney components are labeled to "MAX" - that section is, but as I don't know all components are so, I'm going with 2").
However, I can't access the NFPA code (need to sign up etc.). So does someone have a (verbatim) quote to from the NFPA about class A chimneys regarding clearances? Or does it just say "refer to mfg"?
Up it. Ask them to contemplate the cost of sending 2 guys out to fix it, since that is what they’re worried about. Then ask them if they’d like to fix it now, or let the attorneys argue it. Then throw in a possible structure fire since you’ve now informed them of the issue with their install. How expensive will it be then?
Even if they were correct, the attorney costs would quickly rise to eat the profit of 10 roofs.
And then there’s negative reviews, the local tv station, next door.com, etc. for something so easy to fix, they’re approaching it wrong.
And then there’s negative reviews, the local tv station, next door.com, etc. for something so easy to fix, they’re approaching it wrong.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I agree with you, and that is my gut reaction. However, I prefer to teach them a lesson. Not a liability one, but a "this is how it's done"-one.
That would benefit all customers after me as well, and thus improves general safety of their installs (if they remember - because evidently they did not remember this after the course they likely had to do...).
I will not hesitate to "get what I want" (need; a safe install) if they keep going about it this way, with any means possible. However, I first want to slap them with the code, so they know what the right way is, so they know to respect their customers. That slap is legally solid, rather than a messy (and expensive) lawyer process.
That would benefit all customers after me as well, and thus improves general safety of their installs (if they remember - because evidently they did not remember this after the course they likely had to do...).
I will not hesitate to "get what I want" (need; a safe install) if they keep going about it this way, with any means possible. However, I first want to slap them with the code, so they know what the right way is, so they know to respect their customers. That slap is legally solid, rather than a messy (and expensive) lawyer process.
This would be covered under the International Residential Code:
codes.iccsafe.org
2015 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (IRC) | ICC DIGITAL CODES
ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I went through that, but don't see a (general) clearance for a class A chimney there?
Moreover, my town code says to go by the NFPA (a class A IS a factory fabricated chimney, right?):
Of course the mfg instructions are clear, but I believe there is somewhere a code where it mentions 2"? Or does all code say "go with the mfg"?
(Is there ANY class A that can do less than 1.5"?
Because my chimney says it can be 1.5" if ALL components of the chimney are labeled "MAX", otherwise 2". This section is, but I don't know about all components as I'm not that acrobatic in the chase... So I'm going with 2".)
Moreover, my town code says to go by the NFPA (a class A IS a factory fabricated chimney, right?):
Of course the mfg instructions are clear, but I believe there is somewhere a code where it mentions 2"? Or does all code say "go with the mfg"?
(Is there ANY class A that can do less than 1.5"?
Because my chimney says it can be 1.5" if ALL components of the chimney are labeled "MAX", otherwise 2". This section is, but I don't know about all components as I'm not that acrobatic in the chase... So I'm going with 2".)
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
R1005.1 of your page says of course "go with mfg instructions" for listed chimneys (thus applying here).
He gave me this pic (of uncertain origin, so of no jurisdiction...):
He gave me this pic (of uncertain origin, so of no jurisdiction...):
The class A clearance is set by lab testing and published by the manufacturer. It can vary. I think Excel had some 1" clearance class A pipe at some point. Is the clearance also listed on the label on the chimney pipe?
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Yes, the sticker says it can be 1.5" if ALL components of the chimney are labeled "MAX", otherwise it should be 2".
This section is labeled MAX, but I don't know about all components as I'm not that acrobatic in the chase... So I'm going with 2".
And that sticker is also visible on the outside part, so the roofers should have simply seen it.
Okay, so "code" basically says nothing about a general rule. Instead, they defer to mfg instructions coming with (listed) systems.
Is that correct?
Yes, Metal-Fab Temp/Guard Max is listed at 1.5" clearance.
Exactly what is the light grey stuff that is touching the class A pipe? Is that the only issue?
Exactly what is the light grey stuff that is touching the class A pipe? Is that the only issue?
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
(yes, 1.5" minimum, only if the whole system is listed. Otherwise 2". So for me it's 2" as I can't confirm the rest of the system.)
The grey stuff is white plastic foil. The black stuff is black (asphalt impregnated) woven stuff. One of the two is the ice and water barrier. I don't know what the other is.
Yes that is the only issue.
I thought of mounting a knife on a broomstick and trying to cut it away myself from the bottom of the chase. I can't reach it in the attic. (It's the low end of the roof, and when I insulated there I was not able to get far enough there to really work on something like this, though I could shove insulation there, while keeping an air channel open from the soffit along the plywood up, and I installed some sheet metal around the opening to prevent insulation from sagging in. Ugly, because hard to reach, but functional.) But I'd still have to tear the last part as it's flexible, risking creating tears further under the shingles - and that's not good.
So, yes, that's the only issue, but they have to fix it, from the roof side.
The grey stuff is white plastic foil. The black stuff is black (asphalt impregnated) woven stuff. One of the two is the ice and water barrier. I don't know what the other is.
Yes that is the only issue.
I thought of mounting a knife on a broomstick and trying to cut it away myself from the bottom of the chase. I can't reach it in the attic. (It's the low end of the roof, and when I insulated there I was not able to get far enough there to really work on something like this, though I could shove insulation there, while keeping an air channel open from the soffit along the plywood up, and I installed some sheet metal around the opening to prevent insulation from sagging in. Ugly, because hard to reach, but functional.) But I'd still have to tear the last part as it's flexible, risking creating tears further under the shingles - and that's not good.
So, yes, that's the only issue, but they have to fix it, from the roof side.
Thanks, it wasn't clear from the picture. I suspected an ice barrier, but wasn't sure. That definitely sucks and clearly it has to be remedied. I am wondering if the chimney pipe can be removed from the top and then the roofing material cut away to the perimeter of the cone from topside?
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
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