Harman XXV smoke/smell

[WaxiesDargle]

I had a Harman XXV stove professionally installed over the summer and when I first fired it up over the last week got a lot of smoke smell. I know that the new stove needs to “cure†and that smell went away after an hour or two of burning, but I can still smell/see wood smoke coming out of the piping in the rear. This only occurs when the stove is first starting up or if I set the stove to room temp and it cycles down. I had the installer back out and they are going to re-do the install and reseal everything. I am questioning that they said that it was normal for me to get some smoke and smell during start up year round. They said that I am only getting as much as I am because it is warmer out (it was in the 50s). They tested the draft and said it was excellent. Is it normal for this stove to stink up my house every time I use it? I just want to level set my expectations and prepare myself for the battle with my wife that will be coming if this stove continues to make my house smell like my cabin in the woods.

Separate question: Stove Chow vs. American Wood Fibers. Home depot near me has both for 197.

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Also since I know you guys like pics:

 

[vinny11950]

Wax, sorry to hear you are getting smoke.

After the stove paints cure, you should not be getting smoke smell in the house. Pellet stoves have an exhaust fan that pushes out the smoke, so no matter what temperature it is outside, the stove will push out the smoke.

This is a common topic here, so if you do a search or just look through the posts you will find good information on this from people who know a lot more than me.

Make sure you look at the installation and compare it to the technical specifications from the stove pipe manufacturer. The installer may have missed something.

If you could give a better description of the install - manufacturer, type of venting, was any silicone used to seal joints - that would help.

But what would help most, would be pictures, upclose and from a distance of the venting pipe.

People here love pictures and have eagle eyes for spotting trouble.

 

[vinny11950]

by the way, that is a sweet looking stove.

 

[lbcynya]

No, not normal. I had to fire my professoinal intaller after 5 tries to get it right. I have a 5" up and out scenario in my finished basement which is less straightforward than your setup. Smoke would leak out of the joints at startup no matter what they did. I also wanted it to look nice, so duct tape and bubble gum weren't going to cut it... With that said, you scenario should be easy to fix since your piping is straight out. Stay on them and they'll get it right.

I was very happy with Stove Chow last year.

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Thanks guys...I didn't think I should be getting this much smoke. You could see it billowing up around the stove when they checked the draft the other day. The only thing I did not mention is that because of the location they did take the outside pipe above the roof line. So there is about 10 feet of vertical pipe outside. I'll get some pics and measure later on.

 

[lbcynya]

Thanks guys...I didn't think I should be getting this much smoke. You could see it billowing up around the stove when they checked the draft the other day. The only thing I did not mention is that because of the location they did take the outside pipe above the roof line. So there is about 10 feet of vertical pipe outside. I'll get some pics and measure later on.

Yes, that makes a difference since you'll have smoke traveling through quite a bit of cold pipe upon startup. Smoke, just like water and electricity will take the path of least resistance, so any gaps in the piping will smoke until you get draft from heat and pressure (stove fan).

In my case, the dismissed installer was a very competent and experienced wood stove installer, but a pellet vent newbie. They are 2 very different animals and if you treat pellet vent like stove chimney you'll have problems.

If they tell you some smoke is normal, then I would kick them to the curb...

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Here are some additional pics.

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Outside

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Last one.

 

[WaxiesDargle]

The outside pipe is just over 10 feet.

 

[vinny11950]

that's a lot of 90s and 45s for 3 inch pipe. especially with such a long run to the top.

i wonder what the EVL for the Harman XXV is?

you have two 90s, with a EVL value of 10.

two 45s, with a total value of 6.

two 30s, not sure about those, but let say 3

and ten feet of vertical pipe, which is 10

so your EVL would be close to 29. that might be too much for 3 inch pipe, but i am not sure. others would know better than me, as i can't find the EVL suggested by Harman for this stove.

 

[rona]

The easy way to spot leaks is to wait until dark then start the stove. Now look in back of the stove and the exh pipes using a flashlight. The smoke will be easy to see and you will spot any leaks real easy. Look along pipe connections and pipe seams.
New stoves will stink as the protective oil film is burned off. Usually I used to preburn the stove before doing a install to avoid this problem.
Looking at all the pipe I think once the pipe gets warm it will draft a lot better and you shouldn't smell anything but keep in mind you have a long pipe to get warm.

 

[jtakeman]

that's a lot of 90s and 45s for 3 inch pipe. especially with such a long run to the top.

i wonder what the EVL for the Harman XXV is?

Stove brand doesn't really matter. Anything over 15 EVL with 3" is just not recommended!

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Looks like I need to make a phone call. This seems like something they should have known...

 

[vinny11950]

correction,

10 feet of vertical pipe would be EVL value of 5.

So your EVL would be closer to 24. Still high for 3 inch pellet pipe.

But the smoke could also be coming from lack of silicone sealer around the joint, especially the indoor section. Duravent needs a lot of sealer.

The high EVL will just make it harder for the stove to push out the smoke and might make the stove not have a good, efficient burn.

 

[WaxiesDargle]

I just turned the stove on and it looks like the smoke just pours out of the bottom of the indoor 90. Once the flame gets going the smoke stops, but by that time my downstairs stinks. Thanks again everyone! I'm hoping I can talk them into replacing the 3" with 4". I feel I've spent enough on this that I shouldn't get short changed.

 

[nayslayer]

Sorry for slight hijack, what is evl?

 

[lbcynya]

I just turned the stove on and it looks like the smoke just pours out of the bottom of the indoor 90. Once the flame gets going the smoke stops, but by that time my downstairs stinks. Thanks again everyone! I'm hoping I can talk them into replacing the 3" with 4". I feel I've spent enough on this that I shouldn't get short changed.

Wow, and this started with such an innocent and tranquil picture... Holly cow, batman, that's a lot of pipe... This kind of stuff just shouldn't happen. I feel for you. Simpson should be ashamed of themselves for making such crappy pipe, too. That's what my installer tried to seal up 5 times. I started with the 6" pipe adapter from Harman, but that was designed to mate up with traditional stove pipe, not pellet pipe. They tried to hodge-podge that and I caved to 4" Simpson foregoing the 6" pipe I wanted. In my case the pipe was "part of the look" so gobs of silicone or aluminum tape weren't going to cut it. This ain't 1919...it's 2011, they should be able to make pipe that doesn't leak. That's all gone and I'm giving the Selkirk direct temp a try. Not worth it for you since 90% is outside and what you need to seal up is not visible.

Anyway, hopefully your installer makes it right. If not, have them join this tread to try and justify their work the professionals on this forum (of which I'm not one of). ;-)

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Sorry for slight hijack, what is evl?

evl = equivalent vertical length

Each component in the venting system is assigned a value, these values are summed and that number determines the minimum vent diameter required to allow the combustion blower to safely exhaust the combustion byproducts.

People who exceed the evl for the particular vent pipe they install will have burning issues.

There is normally a list in the install manual along with the limits for the particular stove you are installing.

 

[schoondog]

Well to start that is a great lookin stove. Best of luck with her! It does look like you should have had 4" pipe installed. And to share alittle info one of the guys at work has a Country Winslow. He has had problems with big clinkers and the like unless he burned Okanagan pellets. (2 year old install) After talking amongst ourselves at work and looking at one of the guys new installs, he added up his EVL and it was a little elevated. After changing the pipe to 4" he has burned 3 bags of Appalacians (he had trouble with them last year) and has a totally clean stove, clinker free. Don't let the installer tell you different, pipe does make a difference.

Schoondog

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Ok quick update. They are coming out tomorrow and are reconfiguring the inside to eliminate some of the bends. I will end up with 2 45s on the inside...not sure what it will look like, but I will post pics. This will still be 3" pipe. They are converting all of the pipe on the outside of the house to 4" pipe. I'm using you guys as my sounding board...does this sound like it will do the trick?
So it would be 2 45s and about 2 feet of pipe at 3" then a 90 a 45 and 10 feet of vertical at 4"

 

[kilbury]

That should work out better for you. btw, fyi for everyone Harman's manual says over 15' evl should go to 4".

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking this will be ok as it will only be an EVL of 7 or so before it converts to 4". Are there any guidelines for a hybrid 3-4 setup or is it as long as your 3" section is under 15 you are good? Just curious.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking this will be ok as it will only be an EVL of 7 or so before it converts to 4". Are there any guidelines for a hybrid 3-4 setup or is it as long as your 3" section is under 15 you are good? Just curious.

The evl calculation is for the entire vent run and the minimum diameter is for the entire run. One diameter from the beginning to the end.