Having trouble parting with $$ for lining

[CJK440]

I've been doing some research on lining my chimney but am still on the fence.

Here is my current situation. I have an Avalon insert in the basement of a 1973 Raised ranch, I burn wood. There is a 6" outlet on the stove that goes to a T that has 2 feet of oval flex stainless on top. This passes thru a sheetmetal blanking plate where my flue was. The flex stainless enters about a foot into the smoke chamber. Above the smoke chamber is 13x13 terra cotta lining. The chimney is 25' high.

I clean the chimney myself yearly with a sooteater and it gets the terracotta nice and clean when looking top down. The smoke chamber does collect black buildup that never comes off. I've been burning like this for 5 years at least and the only performance issue I noticed is at the ends of the seasons when its not terribly cold out, the stove will back up pushing smoke into the room unless I "jumpstart" a draft with a window fan blowing in.

I am a DIY guy and with 11x11 inside the terracotta I assume installing an insulated 6" flex liner will not be too challenging.

My hangup is considering success the last few years with my current setup, am I going to notice more than just my wallet being $700+ lighter??

 

[Old School]

I don't know if it would make a drastic difference but would certainly be easier to clean and likely solve any back puffing issues. North line express has a 25' kit for less than $400.00.


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[CJK440]

Everything I read says to insulate it and once that's added they are competitive with other options + or- %50 or so.

 

[yooper08]

Think about it this way. You're really dealing with two components that have different needs but work off of each other, like an engine and transmission. If both are working well, you have a safe and reliable car. Same goes for the stove (engine) and chimney (transmission). But making improvements to one really impacts that component and only marginally the other.

Stove performance-wise, you will see improved draft, particularly when it gets warmer out. It'll make start up and reloading easier.

The big thing though is safety and chimney fires. That black buildup that never comes off (creosote), some day when that ignites, you'll be out way more than $700 and hopefully the fire doesn't ignite anything surrounding the chimney (thinking the house). The more you let that build up, it'll only be a matter of time, and assuming you clean once a year, the later in the season that stuff ignites, the worse it's going to be. Not trying to use fear tactics, but that is a real possibility and in your case, sounds like more and more likely to happen.

Before you get the liner installed, you're going to need to get that creosote that's at the bottom out, otherwise, you still run the risk of a chimney fire. You'll be out your $700 twice plus any other repairs.

Like old school said, cleaning will be easier.

If the tranny goes, that engine is just sitting there, and who knows what else got damaged until you get under the hood.

 

[mellow]

Got pics of your current setup? From your description it sounds like the insert sits out of the fireplace?

 

[bholler]

Also when you clean do you pull out the insert every time then drop the block off plate down clean the smoke chamber and vacuum up everything off the smoke shelf? If not you have allot of flammable material sitting there waiting to catch fire. And it will be a big fire. If you do just think about how much your time is worth every time you do that. You will pay for the liner pretty quick if you assign a decent value to your time there.

 

[CJK440]

Got pics of your current setup? From your description it sounds like the insert sits out of the fireplace?

No, the majority of the stove is in the fireplace and maybe 8" sticks out past the surround.

Also when you clean do you pull out the insert every time then drop the block off plate down clean the smoke chamber and vacuum up everything off the smoke shelf? If not you have allot of flammable material sitting there waiting to catch fire. And it will be a big fire. If you do just think about how much your time is worth every time you do that. You will pay for the liner pretty quick if you assign a decent value to your time there.

I do, there is a lot of accumulated debris every year.

Before you get the liner installed, you're going to need to get that creosote that's at the bottom out, otherwise, you still run the risk of a chimney fire. You'll be out your $700 twice plus any other repairs.

I figured I'd hire a pro sweep to do it before I line but would imagine that with an insulated liner, the risk of lighting off the residual creosote would drop extremely.

 

[bholler]

I do, there is a lot of accumulated debris every year.

Good now how much time do you spend doing that every year?

I figured I'd hire a pro sweep to do it before I line but would imagine that with an insulated liner, the risk of lighting off the residual creosote would drop extremely.

Yes the risk is reduced but it is still there and a fire between the liners can be very bad and very hard to put out.

 

[CJK440]

Good now how much time do you spend doing that every year?

Probably 2 hours. I'd guess pulling the stove to clean the flex would be half that.

 

[bholler]

Probably 2 hours. I'd guess pulling the stove to clean the flex would be half that.

You should not have to pull the stove at all. At most I would say it would take 30 mins to clean but usually less than that.

 

[Old School]

Everything I read says to insulate it and once that's added they are competitive with other options + or- %50 or so.

I was having back puffing issues and ran a liner only insulated with Roxul top and bottom and it solved the problem. Like I said the biggest plus for me was being able to sweep it clean in 15 minutes without having to remove anything.


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[mellow]

Takes me more time to get the ladder out and setup for my 25 footer than it does to clean my liner.

 

[CJK440]

OK, so I am going to spring for a liner mostly for the safety factor.

My next question is what material flex liner and thickness is good for wood burning (and maybe bio bricks)??

I've come across 316L, 316 Ti alloy, 304 and those seem to be all around .005/.006" thick single wall and double the thickness that for double wall (duh).

I do see that double wall is stronger of course and drafts better but is strength really a concern once its in place?

 

[begreen]

Word is that you would be much better off to stick with single-wall. It comes in thin wall and heavy duty thick wall. Double wall liner has the potential to delaminate and pucker which makes it less favorable and costly to replace if this does happen.

 

[bholler]

I do see that double wall is stronger of course and drafts better but is strength really a concern once its in place?

Nope it is weaker. If you want stronger go with heavy wall it is actually thicker metal not just 2 layers of thinner metal. Regular light wall will work ok too but stay away from that 2 ply crap.

 

[Old School]

I have a 316 going to a basement stove and 304 going to main level insert. Performance wise I see no difference. The 316 did feel more substantial when installed so I would assume it may last longer.


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[bholler]

I have a 316 going to a basement stove and 304 going to main level insert. Performance wise I see no difference. The 316 did feel more substantial when installed so I would assume it may last longer.

No 304 will hold up just as well for wood as 316. And you cant tell the difference in the alloys at all by feel. The construction technique is the big difference. And with heavy wall where there is allot more metal there is a big price difference between 304 and 316 so unless you need 316 don't wast your money.

 

[CJK440]

So single wall (.006" thick) 304 would be sufficient for a wood stove. Would this work if I want to piece my own kit together?? (broken link removed to http://www.fireplace-chimneystore.com/catalog/item/8825086/10211582.htm)

Or this 316Ti Tee kit. I'm guessing the accessories may not be of the best quality http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-x-25-Stai...982178?hash=item3d063290a2:g:5jsAAOSwEeFU72fh

Am I missing anything here?

 

[bholler]

Either will work ok but I would still recommend heavy wall.

 

[CJK440]

Heavy wall was out of my budget. I ended up with a basic full 316 kit from Rockford chimney. $535 to my door with 1/2" insulation kit. Seemed like the best price. With luck it will be dry enough to install over the weekend.

With an 11x11 inside flue dimension I am hoping that 6" flex with 1/2" per side of insulation will find its way down to the firebox with just gravity helping.

 

[Woody Stover]

The flex stainless enters about a foot into the smoke chamber.

My wife had a stove bought for her by grandma, and installed before I was able to move here and join her. The hack-job install had the pipe going through plate-steel covering the fireplace opening. Un-burned gasses built up in the fireplace and smoke chamber, and when she opened the door, enough oxygen was supplied so that the gasses ignited and blew the stove door out of her hand and knocked her on her butt!