heat 4 field stone cabin

[nicolove]

I have an unusual one-room cabin (20x20x15) in the Catskills. It's built on an out-cropping rock, so it's virtually a stone cave. The sides are built up of field stone. Only the roof is wood. For the first time, I'm trying to use it in the wintertime. I will use a very small window near the roof for the flute (can't break through the rock!). The chimneys in the pic were covered up with the new roof. Will all this stone help or hurt my attempt to be warm in the winter? Do I need a certain kind/size of stove because of the stone floor and walls (there's no insulation--just the stone!).

 

[begreen]

It's a shame that the new chimney was not installed with the new roof. The chimney will be on the short side and going out the window, if possible, will be adding two 90º turns in the flue path which is not going to help draft. What is the new roof's material? Going straight up in this situation is highly recommended and desirable.

Stone is not a good insulator. The space though small will need a lot of BTUs to keep up with the heat loss. How will this cabin be used? Occasional visits for a few days in the winter or much longer?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

If you’re going to try to heat those stone walls up for a quick winter weekend adventure you’re going to be cold. It’s going to take a lot of heat to budge the temperature of those stone walls…. And it sounds like the floor is stone too? Can you bring in propane? Once the walls are warm you should be able to keep a temperature, it’s getting there that’ll be the issue.

 

[nicolove]

It's a shame that the new chimney was not installed with the new roof. The chimney will be on the short side and going out the window, if possible, will be adding two 90º turns in the flue path which is not going to help draft. What is the new roof's material? Going straight up in this situation is highly recommended and desirable.

Stone is not a good insulator. The space though small will need a lot of BTUs to keep up with the heat loss. How will this cabin be used? Occasional visits for a few days in the winter or much longer?

Thanks for your analysis. My son is trying to live full-time in the cabin and would be here 24/7 through the winter—which can be snowy. What BTU should I be considering? Square footage suggests a small stove—but do I need larger?.

 

[nicolove]

Thanks for your analysis. My son is trying to live full-time in the cabin and would be here 24/7 through the winter—which can be snowy. What BTU should I be considering? Square footage suggests a small stove—but do I need larger?.

 

[nicolove]

If you’re going to try to heat those stone walls up for a quick winter weekend adventure you’re going to be cold. It’s going to take a lot of heat to budge the temperature of those stone walls…. And it sounds like the floor is stone too? Can you bring in propane? Once the walls are warm you should be able to keep a temperature, it’s getting there that’ll be the issue.

What would you suggest for a propane stove? I’m not adverse to propane but unsure how easy it would be to get it delivered. I’m up a mountain road that is truly “off the grid.”

 

[begreen]

This will be a tough spot to heat well in the dead of a NY winter. It will need an oversized stove of around 2 cu ft, that will work on a short 12' chimney. Definitely consider a straight-up, through-the-roof chimney. A Drolet Escape 1500 or Spark II, Century S250, or a True North TN20 are possibles. Alternatively, an older stove like a Jotul 118 could work.

FWIW, I suspect that the whole camping-out experience will get old, especially if no plumbing or water in the "cave". If he doesn't have a few cords of fully seasoned wood already split and stacked, this could be a short experiment. Modern stoves need fully seasoned wood to perform well. That said, I did this one New England winter many years ago in an uninsulated cabin and survived, but I definitely did not want to repeat it. The experience was a strong motivator to get better accommodations before the next winter.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Yeah, if wood isn’t put up for the winter, I’d put off the plans until next year. I run a PE T5 in a 16x29 cabin in the Adirondack Mountains. I’m stick built, but very exposed to the wind.

I’d think a PE super 27 would be a good stove that’ll run off a smaller chimney. Is the roof insulated? If not, you may want to upsize a bit more.

In regards to the propane, How is he going to cook meals? Does he have electricity, or is he 100% off grid?

 

[peakbagger]

Quite the structure. Wood stoves put out two types of heat, radiant and convective. Radiant is like a beam of light, it goes from a hot surface to a cooler surface. If the camper is between the wall and the stove he will be warm on the side facing the stove. On the other hand his warm backside will be trying to heat the wall which is going to be the same temp as the outdoors. Convective heat heats up the air. Heat rises so it will go up to the roof, melt off whatever snow is there and then drop down the cool walls creating a draft and then across the floor and back to the stove. So the only time the occupant is warm is with a constant fire, the place will not hold heat overnight without constant feeding.

If you see illustrations of medieval castles there are usually tapestries hung on the walls, they serve a function, they act as intermediate surface to slow down radiant heating of the stone walls. You could do the same by hanging wool blankets from the walls. Rock Wool or fiberglass board (used for HVAC ducts) could be used but no foam as it gives off toxic smoke if overheated. Make sure its wool as cotton is far more flammable. Effectively its one step away from camping outdoors except its drier as the only snow there is, is the stuff he drags inside when entering.

As for size and fuel use its anyone's guess as we do not know the occupant will use the heat. At best it will be interesting attempt at worst a miserable existence. My advise use winter camping gear and clothing and use a smaller stove when inside and active and then burrow in the winter sleeping bag for the night.

 

[nicolove]

Quite the structure. Wood stoves put out two types of heat, radiant and convective. Radiant is like a beam of light, it goes from a hot surface to a cooler surface. If the camper is between the wall and the stove he will be warm on the side facing the stove. On the other hand his warm backside will be trying to heat the wall which is going to be the same temp as the outdoors. Convective heat heats up the air. Heat rises so it will go up to the roof, melt off whatever snow is there and then drop down the cool walls creating a draft and then across the floor and back to the stove. So the only time the occupant is warm is with a constant fire, the place will not hold heat overnight without constant feeding.

If you see illustrations of medieval castles there are usually tapestries hung on the walls, they serve a function, they act as intermediate surface to slow down radiant heating of the stone walls. You could do the same by hanging wool blankets from the walls. Rock Wool or fiberglass board (used for HVAC ducts) could be used but no foam as it gives off toxic smoke if overheated. Make sure its wool as cotton is far more flammable. Effectively its one step away from camping outdoors except its drier as the only snow there is, is the stuff he drags inside when entering.

As for size and fuel use its anyone's guess as we do not know the occupant will use the heat. At best it will be interesting attempt at worst a miserable existence. My advise use winter camping gear and clothing and use a smaller stove when inside and active and then burrow in the winter sleeping bag for the night.

Love the suggestion about the wool blankets. We know this will be a challenging experience. The original cabin builder did use it in the wintertime during the 1970's.

 

[nicolove]

Yeah, if wood isn’t put up for the winter, I’d put off the plans until next year. I run a PE T5 in a 16x29 cabin in the Adirondack Mountains. I’m stick built, but very exposed to the wind.

I’d think a PE super 27 would be a good stove that’ll run off a smaller chimney. Is the roof insulated? If not, you may want to upsize a bit more.

In regards to the propane, How is he going to cook meals? Does he have electricity, or is he 100% off grid?

He'll use a propane tabletop 2 burner. We do have a Honda gas generator plus a solar powered one. The cabin is very dry but can be drafty. Once the stone walls are heated and warmed up, do you think the stone will hold the heat? There is no water on the property--we get it from a spring and rain barrels.
Thanks, Nicolette

 

[nicolove]

Thanks for the stove suggestions. I could afford the Century and will look at it more closely. The cabin is very dry but can be drafty. Once the stone walls are heated and warmed up, do you think the stone will hold the heat?
Thanks, Nicolette

This will be a tough spot to heat well in the dead of a NY winter. It will need an oversized stove of around 2 cu ft, that will work on a short 12' chimney. Definitely consider a straight-up, through-the-roof chimney. A Drolet Escape 1500 or Spark II, Century S250, or a True North TN20 are possibles. Alternatively, an older stove like a Jotul 118 could work.

FWIW, I suspect that the whole camping-out experience will get old, especially if no plumbing or water in the "cave". If he doesn't have a few cords of fully seasoned wood already split and stacked, this could be a short experiment. Modern stoves need fully seasoned wood to perform well. That said, I did this one New England winter many years ago in an uninsulated cabin and survived, but I definitely did not want to repeat it. The experience was a strong motivator to get better accommodations before the next winter.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the stove suggestions. I could afford the Century and will look at it more closely. The cabin is very dry but can be drafty. Once the stone walls are heated and warmed up, do you think the stone will hold the heat?
Thanks, Nicolette

I like the wool blankets idea too, even shiny bubble insulation would help. The stone will act as a conductor, transferring heat from the interior. Anything that can be done to reduce that transfer will help. So will aggressively sealing up all leaks. Drafty is nice in the summer, but not in the winter.

Note that a safe and proper chimney system will probably cost more than the stove. Going straight up not only performs better, it's usually cheaper too. What type of roof was put on the cabin?

 

[nicolove]

I like the wool blankets idea too, even shiny bubble insulation would help. The stone will act as a conductor, transferring heat from the interior. Anything that can be done to reduce that transfer will help. So will aggressively sealing up all leaks. Drafty is nice in the summer, but not in the winter.

Note that a safe and proper chimney system will probably cost more than the stove. Going straight up not only performs better, it's usually cheaper too. What type of roof was put on the cabin?

Turns out I was wrong about the fireplace. There is one that was hidden behind some furniture. I have to investigate its size and condition and the chimney situation. But I think it’s small. The original owner used this small built in fireplace plus a wood burning stove on the other side of the cabin.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Seal up those air leaks as best you can. Somebody mentioned thinking of this as winter camping. I think that’s wise. I’d go with a heavy sleeping bag and high R sleeping pad.

I think the quantity of wood you’re going to need is going to surprise you.

128 cubic feet of wood is in a cord.

2 cubic feet of stove firebox equals 64 stove reloads.

Your wood is probably going to be wet, so you’re not going to get the best reload schedule. You’ll have to push the stove a bit. Instead of 3 loads a day, use 3.5, but realistically you’ll probably be doing 4.

64 loads/3.5 loads per day is going to run through a cord in 18 days.

If a cord runs $250-300 each, you’re going to be spending a lot in wood.

You may want to reconsider this adventure or put it off a year to prepare. A tent would be easier to heat. Maybe set up a tent in the cabin?

 

[ispinwool]

What an adventure! I wish your son all the best! (our eldest son would do this in
a heartbeat if we had a cabin like this! LOL)
I agree with what's been mentioned about the walls/heat retention...the lower half of
our home is fieldstone and the upper half is 5 brick thick. It's HARD to keep it heated in the
winter.
Maybe scout around yard sales/flea markets for thick, old comforters to hang on the walls. (Not
handmade quilts...that would be a shame to poke holes in those) An old piece of rug on
the floor might help a bit too...?
*wool is warmer than any manmade fabric available... his clothing and bedding honestly should be made of/
contain mostly wool.
I'd also suggest a CO2 detector. Just to err on the side of caution.

If you wouldn't mind, please add pics of the inside...it looks amazing!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It just dawned on me a bit of useful info for moving wood to an off grid location. After snow shoes have stamped down the path enough, you can easily pull a couple loads of wood at a time in a child’s sled. Careful as the path can get iced up fast!

If you can find an old set of downhill skis, Google Smitty Sled and get some ideas on how to move a lot of wood with very little effort. Careful on the downhills as gravity can make a sled move fast.

 

[armanidog]

Will this be your son's "Walden Pond?
David Thoreau lived for two years in a house he built with wood heat. He didn't build a chimney until it got cold.

"House-Warming: After picking November berries in the woods, Thoreau adds a chimney, and finally plasters the walls of his sturdy house to stave off the cold of the oncoming winter. He also lays in a good supply of firewood, and expresses affection for wood and fire."

Walden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[NorthernFireplaceFool]

Will this be your son's "Walden Pond?
David Thoreau lived for two years in a house he built with wood heat. He didn't build a chimney until it got cold.

"House-Warming: After picking November berries in the woods, Thoreau adds a chimney, and finally plasters the walls of his sturdy house to stave off the cold of the oncoming winter. He also lays in a good supply of firewood, and expresses affection for wood and fire."

Walden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As a Mainer his writing has inspired more than one trip through our woods and over our lakes and rivers for me alone! Not to mention the millions who have traveled his pathways through our state. Amazing writer!

 

[Riverbanks]

Who was the guy from Montana, I think? A p.b.s. show, years ago, from memory, his cabin is a historic preservation site now

Found it, Dick Proenneke, Alone in the wilderness, good show, got to be tougher than me, I wouldn't last a week

 

[peakbagger]

Folks winter camp in all conditions, native tribes in Canada have been doing it since they came over the land bridge. It is a steep learning curve for most although groups like AMC offer winter mountaineering courses that can help get up to speed. As I tell folks, I have the skills and the gear but no longer have the motivation to do much winter camping.

Heating a well built log cabin is a lot easier than a stone cabin. Logs have R value and cracks in chinking are easy to find on a cold night. Keep in mind daylight in the winter in northern NY can get close to 8 hours, and temps drop rapidly on clear nights after the sun sets, that usually means having to heat the cabin for several hours in the evening.

 

[Riverbanks]

I got 5 $ says the kid don't stay after 1,3,23, anybody else want in on the action?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It sounds like it's going to be a real steep learning curve. It would be much easier if the boy had prior experience with his equipment. The Catskills will be warmer than the Adirondacks, but it'll still be plenty dangerous if he gets wet or is unprepared.

 

[begreen]

I've been assuming the cabin has no power, is that correct? What about water?

A different, off-grid option would be a gravity-fed pellet stove.

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