Heat loss thru Recessed light's

[Pellet-King]

I was always envious of you all saying your home was more evenly heated then mine, I was seeing on cold mornings under 25f over a 10 degree difference in temps between my living room and dining room in a small 1500sqft Cape, this morning it was the usual 59 degree's in my kitchen and almost 70 in the living room where the stove is.

My home was built in 1952, It was gutted in 2007/2008 and most walls and ceilings were replaced, before I bought it in june 2008, they added 7 recessed cans in my kitchen and what was a breezeway between the garage is now part of my living room, last week I replaced all my BR30 bulbs with LED Philip's bulbs that were onsale at HD, I knew for years that there was serious cold drafts coming from around the lights, I pulled off the rings and where they cut the holes there was some serious gaps and cold air was coming in, I caulked around the gaps and now it feel's alot warmer




.

 

[Pass the Pellets]

We had the same problem at our place. Got rid of the recessed lights and replaced with track lighting. Not only could I feel the cold air but when I pulled the cans, I could see light coming in from the soffit vents!

 

[checkthisout]

Our particular state requires that area to be gasketed and the lighting cans come with a gasket to do so. Apparently as you found, it's a signifigant loss area if it's not. The cans also have to be insulation contact with insulation laid over the top.

 

[heat seeker]

Had a similar situation here, but with the brick around the fireplace. The mortar is recessed in the brick around the fireplace. They put an edging on the sheet rock and butted it up against the brick. But - at every joint, where the mortar was recessed, was an opening large enough to put your pinky into. I could feel a breeze coming in through every gap. The total area of the gaps must have equaled leaving a small window wide open! Some clear RTV and an hour's effort sealed all that up, and the room is dramatically warmer. I gotta wonder how much cold air got in over the 30+ years that fireplace has been there! And no one ever noticed it until I did?

 

[Pellet-King]

The cellar was pretty cold without the furnace that first winter because I installed my stove the summer I moved in so one day walking down the cellar stairs I looked over at the windows which all were replaced but the wooden frame that came in contact to the Sil must of shrunk over the years and you could see about a 1/4" gap of light, sealed those up quick.

 

[chken]

I was always envious of you all saying your home was more evenly heated then mine, I was seeing on cold mornings under 25f over a 10 degree difference in temps between my living room and dining room in a small 1500sqft Cape, this morning it was the usual 59 degree's in my kitchen and almost 70 in the living room where the stove is.

My home was built in 1952, It was gutted in 2007/2008 and most walls and ceilings were replaced, before I bought it in june 2008, they added 7 recessed cans in my kitchen and what was a breezeway between the garage is now part of my living room, last week I replaced all my BR30 bulbs with LED Philip's bulbs that were onsale at HD, I knew for years that there was serious cold drafts coming from around the lights, I pulled off the rings and where they cut the holes there was some serious gaps and cold air was coming in, I caulked around the gaps and now it feel's alot warmer




.View attachment 148928

What is above the cans in the kitchen? Is/was it insulated?

 

[Pellet-King]

What is above the cans in the kitchen? Is/was it insulated?

Doubt they added any as it's inside the main house, have you ever seen insulation between downstairs and upstair ceiling? It's 17 out and today it's 65 in living room, 57 in dining room....so that I guess didn't help as much as I hoped, only burning on a 2 using AWF White Pine, burning on a 3 really sucks down the pellets with maybe a 10 hour fill time max

 

[bags]

If you take into account all of the little holes, gaps, cracks, and such adding them all up in the average home and equated that into you have a hole this big in your wall peoples chins would be dropping and bouncing off of their floors. It is often overlooked and not considered or thought about much, but as more are taking a beating paying the big bucks to keep their Swiss cheese castles heated they are slowly becoming aware. I suggest looking into an energy audit. Many local utility companies offer them and many times they are free of charge. It takes more strain off of their grids too. Win - Win. Worth checking into and asking about.

Can lights are a big air leaks if not properly sealed. Another point on the cans in uninsulated ceilings between the 1st and 2nd floor is the fact that those joist spaces go all the way out to the band boards. They are supposed to be insulated at least at the band boards along the outer perimeter. My next point is that in the uninsulated joist spaces the cans are in they are wide open except where there is supposed to be that little bit of insulation at the exterior perimeter.

Most builders sub out the insulation. Itchy and Scratchy who are the two dudes that show up to jam it in are often paid by piece work so they are not as worried about your air loss as they are about the sack of weed they have hidden in the van. The quicker they slam it in the more they make and the quicker they get to fire up the happy hay. That said, it is already water under the bridge and your best and least expensive option is to make sure the can housings are sealed. This is not just running a bead around where it meets the drywall but also includes un-doing the wing nut and dropping the bulb socket and shield. Up in the can above that many housings are not sealed especially if they are older cans.

Cans are not a one and done proposition. There are IC (insulated) cans and non. Non-IC'c cost less and they are often used whenever Joe Schmo the builder can get away with it. To add to everyone's enjoyment many building inspectors are slackers who don't care as much as they should because it's not their home and heating bills. Plus they like to go golfing and knock back some oat sodas with Builder Bob at his annual outings. It's up to the homeowner to look out for their heating cash.

 

[Pellet-King]

Signed up for a audit few month's ago, they called but told them call at night, which they did not, so I never had it done, dont think they do it in the dead of winter, cost's $100 here and it looks like a way to try to upsell you to make a quick buck so they can have there 420 fix, everytime they called it was a different company trying to do it.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

There are IC (insulated) cans and non. Non-IC'c cost less and they are often used whenever Joe Schmo the builder can get away with it.

The cans actually come in a few varieties.
IC is rated for "insulation contact". It has a thermal limit switch in it to prevent the fixture from starting a fire.
AT is "air tight". This is what is really important for controlling air leaks.
ICAT is both air tight and rated for insulation contact.

The type is always marked somewher on the can. If these were installed as a remodel, they can probably be removed and replaced with the better cans fairly easily. They are held in place by spring clips. The cans are relatively cheap (around $10) and the cost may be justified by the comfort and fuel savings.

 

[bags]

Harvey is correct and Thanks! I should have been more clear on the ratings. My main point was these empty joist spaces usually get non air tight and non IC housings. The leaky cheaper seats type. Some old can houses have nothing really. Sorry for any confusion.

Pellet-King, Is the audit done by your utility company or do they just give a list of companies that do them. Here I am on an electric co-op and they have guys that come out that work for the co-op directly. There are also many reputable HVAC co's that do them but it might cost a bit more. Then they like to sell you new 'ya gotta have its' also.

 

[Pellet-King]

Of my 7 cans in the kitchen 5 are what appears to be sealed as there's no slot's or holes in them, 2 have various slots on the sides but those dont leak much cold air as the other's did.

 

[Phoenix Hatchling]

Signed up for a audit few month's ago, they called but told them call at night, which they did not, so I never had it done, dont think they do it in the dead of winter, cost's $100 here and it looks like a way to try to upsell you to make a quick buck so they can have there 420 fix, everytime they called it was a different company trying to do it.

Was this through CL&P?

 

[Pellet-King]

Yes CLP, tried to signup again this morning but once hit submit it shows a error website, I guess I'll try later, another huge heatloss is air coming from the floor ducts, with no furnace running cellar is 50f, and having no OAK you can feel the cold air being sucked in the rooms, even thou register's are closed and some have magnetic covers to seal them off
My stove is in the fireplace and there's really no option for a oak that wont cost me $$$, cutting a hole in the brick is NOT a option

 

[DrewBoogie]

These are always an option? They are dimmable and they seal up to can to stop air passing through them.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-5-i...m-LED-Module-80-CRI-3000K-RL560WH-R/203310667

Some of the companies that do the audits are better than others. See if these guys will come to you, http://www.rw-heating.com/ They were awesome for a few guys I know that used them.

 

[DrewBoogie]

I think you can call RW directly, no?

 

[Pellet-King]

I saw those but went with the new philip's blulbs for $8 each, the drafts were from the hole around the can, sealed them yesterday, most of the cold air is gone now, cranked the stove up to a 3, now it's 77, the difference between 2 and 3 is huge for heat output on the Whitfield

 

[bogieb]

These are always an option? They are dimmable and they seal up to can to stop air passing through them.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-5-i...m-LED-Module-80-CRI-3000K-RL560WH-R/203310667

.

Finally installed mine in the garage about a month ago. Had torn out the ceiling and put more insulation between that and the bedroom floor, then installed the recessed lights and sheetrock over the summer. Just had incandescent bulbs hanging loosely waiting for me to put the dang LED's and covers on. I can tell you just installing those made a difference on how cold the bedroom floors get.

Edit: Hey, and my electric company gives $10 rebate per light/cover too!

 

[Wilbur Feral]

Signed up for a audit few month's ago, they called but told them call at night, which they did not, so I never had it done, dont think they do it in the dead of winter, cost's $100 here and it looks like a way to try to upsell you to make a quick buck so they can have there 420 fix, everytime they called it was a different company trying to do it.

I can't imagine any decent, reliable, independent energy audit costing less than about $500 unless subsidized by a utility. You see companies at home shows and such, and get the calls from them, offering either free or low cost ($99) energy audits. I once spent about 15 minutes asking two of these companies at a home show some basic questions about air sealing and heat loss (we formerly owned a home improvement company). It was like talking to a child...

Energy audits are EXCELLENT investments, but should only be performed by an independent, Resnet or BPI - certified auditor, with a blower door test as the central part of the audit. A big sign of a ripoff is when they use a thermal camera as their main tool. Those can have some marginal benefit in an audit, but require a reasonable temperature differential (inside vs outside) to show any useful information. They are often the "visual aid" of a sales pitch as much as anything, unless operated by an auditor trained to properly use them (and when). Be careful with these companies that offer free or low cost audits - they are often just a sales tool.

I had most of the knowledge needed to find much of the heat loss in our home, and still paid, as I recall, about $650 total for our audit 5 years ago. Money well spent, and has saved us far more than that over the years.

 

[bags]

My electrical co-op will do free assessments / audits which are pretty good and detailed but do not include a blower door test. There is a possibility of a decent gain for free. So many simple things are overlooked by the average homeowners. Many take it for granted that things are always done right.

 

[funflyer]

Pellet-King, Don't stop now. If they gutted your house and you found the lights not sealed then there is probably more to fix.

My last home was a tract home built in 1991 that I bought new. I lived there for about 5 years before deciding to weather proof everything I could and was surprised to discover all the small things that made a huge difference for both the heating and cooling bills not to mention the comfort increase. Wish I had done it when I first moved in. I'd guess that many of these things exist in plenty of homes that nobody every thinks of fixing. My neighbors thought I was anal until we compared bills. I once compared how long our AC ran with my neighbors who had the same home plan, built at the same time. His ran 30% longer with the exact same AC unit, thermostat and temp setting.

1" holes in the wall top plates where the romex was run and no insulation covered.
Kitchen, bath and hall ceiling fixtures/fans had gaps and were poorly insulated.
Pipes in kitchen and baths entered cabinets on exterior walls were not sealed.
Every exterior wall outlet/switch not sealed and poorly insulated.
Bath exhaust fans backdraft flaps splattered with drywall texture (not shutting properly and leaking).
HVAC ducting in attic was insulated but not sealed at the registers and manifold (duct tape dried and fell off).
Fresh air return to air handler pedestal in garage had a 1/4" gap (24" long) open to garage and not drywalled/insulated on the inside (exterior wall).
Skylights (2) major loss of heat/cooling. Added a frame with 1/4" clear plexiglass at ceiling level to insulate.

 

[bags]

New Member
Joined:
Nov 6, 2014
Messages:
59
Loc:
Central Arizona

1" holes in the wall top plates where the romex was run and no insulation covered.
Kitchen, bath and hall ceiling fixtures/fans had gaps and were poorly insulated.
Pipes in kitchen and baths entered cabinets on exterior walls were not sealed.
Every exterior wall outlet/switch not sealed and poorly insulated.
Bath exhaust fans backdraft flaps splattered with drywall texture (not shutting properly and leaking).
HVAC ducting in attic was insulated but not sealed at the registers and manifold (duct tape dried and fell off).
Fresh air return to air handler pedestal in garage had a 1/4" gap (24" long) open to garage and not drywalled/insulated on the inside (exterior wall).
Skylights (2) major loss of heat/cooling. Added a frame with 1/4" clear plexiglass at ceiling level to insulate

Exactly where I was heading along with others here. All of those little bitty nothings of air leaks can really add up big! Thanks for taking the time to give many details and list examples out. I can not type well and tend to ramble on as is so I try to keep things short. My posts are still usually lengthy but I get some hunting and pecking practice. LOL! Where are you in AZ? I have some good friends in Scottsdale and Glendale. They also have a place up near Flagstaff. I like it out there. Most people don't realize how diverse AZ is with climate and topography.

 

[boo boo]

I was always envious of you all saying your home was more evenly heated then mine, I was seeing on cold mornings under 25f over a 10 degree difference in temps between my living room and dining room in a small 1500sqft Cape, this morning it was the usual 59 degree's in my kitchen and almost 70 in the living room where the stove is.

My home was built in 1952, It was gutted in 2007/2008 and most walls and ceilings were replaced, before I bought it in june 2008, they added 7 recessed cans in my kitchen and what was a breezeway between the garage is now part of my living room, last week I replaced all my BR30 bulbs with LED Philip's bulbs that were onsale at HD, I knew for years that there was serious cold drafts coming from around the lights, I pulled off the rings and where they cut the holes there was some serious gaps and cold air was coming in, I caulked around the gaps and now it feel's alot warmer




.View attachment 148928

Don't stop there
When I bought this home I felt drafts I hate cold drafts. I bought a laser pointer gun that reads the temp. It blew my mind when I pointed it at the outside wall switches and outlets. then the window ceils. I had to take the trim off all of the windows and insolate on the first floor and around the doors and slider t the deck. I am the forth owner built in 97 and cant believe nobody else felt the cold air drafts. its still not tight but is much better

 

[xSpecBx]

I have a relatively new home (built in 07). When we bought the place a couple years ago I walked around with an IR thermometer looking for leaks. found a bunch around light switches, doors, etc. Also air sealed the ceiling to the attic and added more insulation. wife thought I was nuts feeling for leaks and checking temps with the IR thermometer, but our energy needs went down and the house is more even temperature wise so she's not complaining. chimney and recessed lighting are big culprits along with wall outlets.

 

[xSpecBx]

These are always an option? They are dimmable and they seal up to can to stop air passing through them.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-5-i...m-LED-Module-80-CRI-3000K-RL560WH-R/203310667

Some of the companies that do the audits are better than others. See if these guys will come to you, http://www.rw-heating.com/ They were awesome for a few guys I know that used them.

I use RW for my HVAC maintenance. I live in ledyard. The owners son kyle does the energy audits i believe, just need to give them your CL&P account number and set up an appointment. They're a good group of people. I have been using them for a few years with no complaints. Small family owned business.