heat pump vs wood
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It depends on the cost of the wood vs the cost of electricity. This thread did a deep dive into the topic.
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Financially does burning wood even make sense now or future?
I was thinking the other day the total cost in processing wood, stove and chimney costs and how cheap a heat pump is to run. Home built splitter $4000? Saws 1000+ Stove 5000 Chimney/stove pipe 3000 Hand tools 200+ $10 cord in fuel use at least My heat pump uses 3kw per hour so even running...
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Bobbob
Burning Hunk
If I let my heat pump do the work by itself, my electric bill would be $700 a month. With electric rates constantly increasing, it becomes even more beneficial to heat with wood. Our electric rate since putting a heat pump in have more than doubled. It all depends on your situation...how much you pay for wood, for processing equipment, for your wood burning setup, etc. My wood is free, my last two chainsaws were free, I'm using a 30 yr old free woodsplitter. I estimate my annual savings to average $1,500 by heating with wood compared to electricity. I have $5,000 invested into my stove and liner, so after a little over three seasons it's money in the bank
Stelcom66
Minister of Fire
Our electricity supplier has asked for a 19% rate hike which will probably be approved. I do like the technology and efficiency of heat pumps, but if I did have one I still be burning wood. On the topic referenced by @begreen where the costs are mentioned to burn wood. there's also the cost of a truck, sort of. If it's your daily driver then of course the cost is applied to other uses. My truck is not, but I do use it for dump runs and a spare vehicle in case my primary one is in the shop. I was fortunate it passed emissions today being a 2002.
Also mentioned the whole wood burning process is good exercise, and I find it enjoyable overall. Sometimes more time consuming than I'd prefer, but this year I may end up with much more free time. There's also the advantage of having a wood stove for when the electricity is out. It seems that if you were to buy another/alternate heat source, a heat pump is a good choice. I wish I had an ample source of wood on my property, but I do not. A majority of, but not all my wood is free. For those who have a free source of wood, I'd expect you're saving a significant amount of money with a wood stove.
Also mentioned the whole wood burning process is good exercise, and I find it enjoyable overall. Sometimes more time consuming than I'd prefer, but this year I may end up with much more free time. There's also the advantage of having a wood stove for when the electricity is out. It seems that if you were to buy another/alternate heat source, a heat pump is a good choice. I wish I had an ample source of wood on my property, but I do not. A majority of, but not all my wood is free. For those who have a free source of wood, I'd expect you're saving a significant amount of money with a wood stove.
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I consider a need of around 200 kW per day, therefore 50 kg of wood, which cost 13 euros. Electricity is around 0.3 euros per kW, considering on average an efficiency of at least 2.5 per kW consumed, it would be around 24 euros, so wood actually remains more convenient.
I changed my heating system to a heat pump natural gas combo. Electricity is a decent price here but the actual wood itself is free for the harvest. My heating bill with no wood when temps are above 40 is cheap, even below 40 when the gas kicks on isn't bad at all. If I was buying wood I wouldn't burn except for the ambiance or comfort of a wood fire.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Your average efficiency number with a new heatpump is probably higher. One needs to look at th number of hours below a certain temperature in an average season. Looking at you average monthly Temperature is probably close enough. Any time your average temps are above 0C new heatpump efficiency is probably closer to 3,5 or higher.
Did you take your stove efficiency and wood moisture content into account for you wood calculations?
I'm a customer service manager for a "green" company, averaging 5- 8 heat pump / air handler / hybrid HWH installs a week.
Boss man keeps trying to sell me on a heat pump system, says I'll save $$$$'s.
If I did, I'd have a $ 20,000 to $40,000 loan to get this accomplished. 20 year term.
I have a hybrid HWH (AO Smith 80 gal, it fell off of a truck
), parked right next to the 6 year old energy efficient oil burner( that I got for free, from a home that was "going green", it was going to be trashed), which heats the 550 sf accessory apartment. Con Edison mandates that you dismantle your preexisting heating system if you go heat pump. Be it oil or gas. Current oil usage for this year is 100 gallons from November to today.
Tenant keeps the heat @ 62f, her choice, unless it gets real cold (20F or lower) , then I have to tell her to turn the heat up.
I spend $600 - $800 a year for firewood already split (3 - 4 cords average). Redid the roof this fall, temps in the house went up 10 degrees.
Electric bill is $200 a month, give or take.
Keep telling the boss man "You can't beat my numbers", and he hasn't a clue as to what I am talking about .
I'll keep doing what I'm doing
Boss man keeps trying to sell me on a heat pump system, says I'll save $$$$'s.
If I did, I'd have a $ 20,000 to $40,000 loan to get this accomplished. 20 year term.
I have a hybrid HWH (AO Smith 80 gal, it fell off of a truck
), parked right next to the 6 year old energy efficient oil burner( that I got for free, from a home that was "going green", it was going to be trashed), which heats the 550 sf accessory apartment. Con Edison mandates that you dismantle your preexisting heating system if you go heat pump. Be it oil or gas. Current oil usage for this year is 100 gallons from November to today.Tenant keeps the heat @ 62f, her choice, unless it gets real cold (20F or lower) , then I have to tell her to turn the heat up.
I spend $600 - $800 a year for firewood already split (3 - 4 cords average). Redid the roof this fall, temps in the house went up 10 degrees.
Electric bill is $200 a month, give or take.
Keep telling the boss man "You can't beat my numbers", and he hasn't a clue as to what I am talking about .
I'll keep doing what I'm doing
My wood is free. Gets delivered for free (+a thank you to the driver). I split by hand, and buck with an electric chainsaw.
My stove has paid for itself there.
I have a mini split that I use above 40-45 F (wood stove only if it's below 45 for 24 hrs or more, given its burn time, and higher efficiency if lthe door remains closed). And I have solar panels, that thanks to the contributions of fellow tax payers only cost.me 45 % of the total quote. They make enough for my mini split. So that is also free. After the same investment cost.as the solar panels.
Moral of the story, it depends on how much one counts the upfront investment when one calculates the profit in comparison to another heating method. And some would calculate the losses due to not investing the upfront investment elsewhere with a higher return.
My stove has paid for itself there.
I have a mini split that I use above 40-45 F (wood stove only if it's below 45 for 24 hrs or more, given its burn time, and higher efficiency if lthe door remains closed). And I have solar panels, that thanks to the contributions of fellow tax payers only cost.me 45 % of the total quote. They make enough for my mini split. So that is also free. After the same investment cost.as the solar panels.
Moral of the story, it depends on how much one counts the upfront investment when one calculates the profit in comparison to another heating method. And some would calculate the losses due to not investing the upfront investment elsewhere with a higher return.
I forgot to mention my calculations are done approximately for this area, which in winter, at night, -10 C is an exception, 0 C is normal. I have compared several times a heat pump from my parents, with a traditional 2 kW ventilated heater. I don't know about the latest heat pumps, but I believe that establishing a 3:1 (average) efficiency is very optimistic. But if you all believe that a return of over 3 is possible, it's not bad. Wood, I considered a decent and correct use, humidity around 20 percent and I would say that 4 kw per kg should be quite true in a modern stove.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
My math says wood at 20% moisture and a 70% efficient stove yields 3.2 Kw per Kg. (Of course I had to do all the math in freedom units and convert).
My overall point is the break even point is all in the details. You need to you your heatpumps COP temperature curve, the moisture content of your wood and the efficiency of your stove.
It gets really really complicated if you want to add a price to the CO2 and particulate emissions of heatpump vs wood. I haven’t been able to even ballpark that yet.
But my prediction is that in a decade wood will become more expensive and outpace the increasing electricity costs. Just based on labor and fuel rates.
Stelcom66
Minister of Fire
Free wood and solar is ideal. I wish I had some kind of solar system. I also split by hand. I'm not young, so in the future I may be paying for split and delivered wood. Trouble is - it seems there's not a much of a supply for that around here. So maybe at some point I'll consider a gas splitter.
My primary heat is FHW by NG which is not expensive. Put in a mini split System 6 years ago for a good price. Family friends company. The inverter is very efficient. Electric bill $130-180 a month. Installed the stove in 2022. Cut my heating bill in half but we mainly installed it for security and off grid capability. Initially got some free wood but had to pay $250-$325 a cord to get ahead. 3 year plan. I use about a cord a year a little more if we have a cold season. This year buying two more so I will have 5 cords in rotation. Then will buy a cord a year. Don’t mind buying wood since it would be an investment in saws, splitters and having log length delivered. One has to measure the value of one’s time. I have many outdoor hobbies so want to have time for those and time with my family.
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I completely agree, give value to time, in the same way as you I want to use a maximum of 1 and a half cords per year combining the heat pump.
I installed a high efficiency central heat pump about 14 months ago. It is costing me about $1500/year for heating and cooling based on the first full year - much less than the previous oil furnace + low efficiency AC coil. It was expensive, but worth it (Bryant Evolution, 4 ton). We added a wood stove last fall to warm things up on winter evenings and to provide emergency backup heat in case the power goes out. Very happy with that compared to the big old fireplace. We will probably only use ~1/2 cord this year. The house is ~1900 sq ft. Electricity ~27 cents/kWh.
We broke even long ago, but heating with the heat pump isn't crazy expensive here. I own my woods. I would own at least "a chainsaw" regardless.. Now, would I own all of them.. no, but hey TOOLS!! anyway, I get the use of a splitter for free from a neighbor in exchange for pulling any maintenance on it needs. But I still mostly split by hand. We did our own install. Broke even selling our first stove, and got a great deal on our Manny.. So we really only needed to cover about $4.5K in dollars, about 5 seasons did that.
For us though, the money wasn't the reason we put in a wood stove. It was spending 10 days without heat because of a seriously bad ice storm in '09. And based on that need/requirement, the stove paid for itself the first time it was lit and the heat pump didn't come on at all for a couple of weeks.. We have lost power for a couple of multi day periods since, just smiled and went about our days..
For us though, the money wasn't the reason we put in a wood stove. It was spending 10 days without heat because of a seriously bad ice storm in '09. And based on that need/requirement, the stove paid for itself the first time it was lit and the heat pump didn't come on at all for a couple of weeks.. We have lost power for a couple of multi day periods since, just smiled and went about our days..
Stelcom66
Minister of Fire
I'm also in CT. So many trees have been cut down along highways and other state routes. For a while saw many nice stacks along the route to work. I wonder what typically happens to them?
A trip to Burlington wouldn't be out of the question if I could buy a full size pickup truck load of good wood if there were no local sources. For now and today, will be cutting splitting what I have on hand. Of course some rain is predicted this weekend, almost as always lately.
A trip to Burlington wouldn't be out of the question if I could buy a full size pickup truck load of good wood if there were no local sources. For now and today, will be cutting splitting what I have on hand. Of course some rain is predicted this weekend, almost as always lately.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread, sorry.
But...in Canada we have a "federal fuel surcharge" on our natural gas bill which is a "soft" moniker for carbon tax. It's already ridiculous and going to become criminal where we will pay more for the tax on the air we breath than for the gas that we burn to heat our homes. I am so glad I went with wood a few years back.
My point is that utility prices are on the rise. Big time. The government nor the companies care one bit how that increased cost will affect you. I would not want to increase my electricity usage one bit. I have reduced my NG to almost nill, so that is good.
Oh, and in our case payback was one season in a self installed wood burning system. It's cold here. One season is 7 months pretty much 24/7 burning.
But...in Canada we have a "federal fuel surcharge" on our natural gas bill which is a "soft" moniker for carbon tax. It's already ridiculous and going to become criminal where we will pay more for the tax on the air we breath than for the gas that we burn to heat our homes. I am so glad I went with wood a few years back.
My point is that utility prices are on the rise. Big time. The government nor the companies care one bit how that increased cost will affect you. I would not want to increase my electricity usage one bit. I have reduced my NG to almost nill, so that is good.
Oh, and in our case payback was one season in a self installed wood burning system. It's cold here. One season is 7 months pretty much 24/7 burning.
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