help garden, are cedars near other trees ok?

[Prometeo]

Hi everyone, I would like advice on a garden I'm starting, my wife hates it as an idea because it's 40 meters away from home, but I have to start it. Basically the objective is to have good shaded areas, I thought of starting with the cypresses in the central area, with a down redwood, an ash tree, and then proceed with plane trees, lindens, and cedars, My doubt are these trees compatible at about 4,5 meters distance? I know pine trees tend to inhibit other plants, but cedars? Each square is 3 x 3 meters, any advice is always welcome, thanks😎

 

[EbS-P]

What species of cedar? We called juniper “cedar trees”

 

[Prometeo]

What species of cedar? We called juniper “cedar trees”

thanks, I meant atlas and libani, the exact term should be cedrus so 🤔

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Where are these species naturally found in a forested environment?

The cedars I’m familiar with don’t do well with competition and shade.

 

[EbS-P]

4m spacing seems ok for young trees but too close for big trees. I don’t have anything to share about growing near them.

If you need garden shade now look into shade cloth. It can be added seasonally. And just over plants that need it in the summer.

 

[bogieb]

Research the crown width of mature trees. I think those will be way too close. Although they will (probably) grow fine to start, their natural structure will be inhibited by the shade from neighboring trees. That could lead to trouble down the road as some of the trees may be weaker than normal because of the restriction.

But, if you don't care what happens in 20-50 years, then it won't be your problem and do what you want (I'm being serious, not facetious). But, if your children and their children wil be living there in the far future, you might want to think about it.

 

[Prometeo]

thank you all 👍

@EatenByLimestone
are all species, approximately, compatible in this area, except down redwood, but I've had one in a pot for 2 years and it has grown visibly, I took these trees to place them around the house but at greater distances, I didn't ask myself the problem of inhibition, considering distances of 6-8-10 meters and more, however, they are trees available from specific forest nurseries in this region, except for d.redwood

@EbS-P
I need to create a garden for the future, to have shade in summer, not for the house, but for anyone who wants to be free in the garden, without the sun beating down on their heads, children's games, things like that, my doubt is whether it is really worth taking different species for this project, shorter distance or go with equal species

@bogieb
yes, I researched the final dimensions, but too many years should pass, I could probably space them 4 meters now and in 20 years cut alternately to give space, maybe that's the best choice

 

[Prometeo]

this is the start point 😁

 

[EatenByLimestone]

@EatenByLimestone
are all species, approximately, compatible in this area, except down redwood, but I've had one in a pot for 2 years and it has grown visibly, I took these trees to place them around the house but at greater distances, I didn't ask myself the problem of inhibition, considering distances of 6-8-10 meters and more, however, they are trees available from specific forest nurseries in this region, except for d.redwood

It’s kind of hard to answer that. I’m not familiar will all of the species you are looking to plant. On top of that, within a species, trees will vary a lot. Take the red maple (Acer rubrum) as an example. You can find it growing from southern Canada, to southern Florida. A tree from Florida will not live if planted in Canada. They are adapted to their specific area. It doesn’t have to be that extreme. Southern NY and Northern NY are really different ecologically. In southern NY we have native cactus. In northern NY we can have -40 temperatures.

This is a problem found in the garden section of large stores. They sometimes buy trees and sell them that aren’t suited to the climate. They may live just fine in other areas of the state though.

That’s why I keep suggesting to go native. If you have a cold winter, or dry summer they have the best chance to survive. And wildlife can make use of the tree as they are familiar with it. With foreign trees they might have a tough time growing, or take off and go invasive. If there is a natural niche for a tree to fulfill, there will be a native that has evolved to fill it.

 

[Prometeo]

Thank you @EatenByLimestone

I fully agree about territorial species, I'm not sure though whether to alternate or not, for example plane tree, with lime tree, or rather all of one kind,
both are however very present in the area

 

[EbS-P]

is there anything wrong with mixed over planting and thinning later as you see what is growing best or what is allowing what you want to grow.

We have wetland stream that will be replanted at 600 trees per acre or 240/ hectare. Small seedling are relatively cheap keeping the hardy ones with the best structure for your goals

 

[Prometeo]

Thanks @EbS-P

from the numbers you say the distance you chose is approximately 6.5 metres if I'm not wrong, in the end I think I will also put them at 6 meters and they will be good permanently also because I see that the plane trees (I think it will be my choice) blend well with each other. Or maybe I should increase to 7 meters, let's see

 

[EatenByLimestone]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with alternating plantings and then thinning as the stand matures. This mimics nature as it goes from grassland through a mature, climax forest. You may not want to just plant 2 types of trees. Mixing 4 or 5 up will give you the healthiest forest as each will do it’s thing to shape the habitat.

 

[EbS-P]

Thanks @EbS-P

from the numbers you say the distance you chose is approximately 6.5 metres if I'm not wrong, in the end I think I will also put them at 6 meters and they will be good permanently also because I see that the plane trees (I think it will be my choice) blend well with each other. Or maybe I should increase to 7 meters, let's see

View attachment 315966

I think I messed my math up. Spacing is every 2.6 meters for 600 per acre.

 

[Prometeo]

thanks

@EbS-P

per hectare, simply multiply by 2.5 the trees in the acre considering acre 4000 meters and 10,000 hectare I guess it's firewood, what essence?

@EatenByLimestone
the downside of different trees could be than the fastest let the slow ones drown, if not well spaced, I'll talk to the forestry manager again, and I will take based on advice, now is the right time to plant trees!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

No, that’s incorrect. The slowest trees are often the most shade tolerant. They can grow for decades under a canopy before the fast growing ones die/fall over, etc. it’s a waiting game.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Climax species - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Prometeo]

thanks @EatenByLimestone

It's very interesting, especially for reforestation, explains many things, but it makes ask more questions.

 

[CincyBurner]

I would think that much of Italy is Mediterranean climate. For comparison in the US southern California would be of comparable climate.
I'm not sure of soils in Italy. That ought to be a main consideration (pH, texture) as well.
It seems like OP is planting primarily for landscape.
Dawn redwood (Metasequoia glyptostroboides) is great landscape specimen. It does well if not moisture stressed, so I check into that before committing. It requires full sun.
In the USA linden (Tilia) also does better in cooler, moister climates (native to mixed mesophytic forest type). It will suffer acute moisture stress (marginal leaf scorch) in parts of USA if planted in hot, dry, droughty environments. Silver linden (Tilia tomentosa) is more drought tolerant and is native to Crimea.
Cedrus is native to Mediterranean region. It's a beautiful specimen tree but slow growing. Perhaps considered a legacy species planted for future generations.
Allelopathy can have negative implications, but also can be used for positive use to retard unwanted growth.
The genus Juniperus exhibits allelopathic characteristics on other plants.

 

[Prometeo]

thanks @CincyBurner

I'm getting well informed, I'm between zone 8 and 9 for security, better to consider 8 the soils is slightly problematic, calcareous, but I'm understanding that the important thing is to intervene in a targeted way, and for example not with ash, which further raises the pH. The metasequoia, I have two specimens, and I think not to put others, this one in the photo it is with me from two years, I ordered 2 liriodendrons instead, which should grow well here too, and then I will go with plane trees and lime trees, but separately I would like to make a small group of 3-4 Lebanese / Atlas cedars

 

[EatenByLimestone]

thanks @EatenByLimestone

It's very interesting, especially for reforestation, explains many things, but it makes ask more questions.

The more questions you ask, the better you will understand why things are happening the way they are.

If you look at how nature takes an area from a grassland to a mature forest, you will gain insights as to how nature rebuilds the ecosystem.

The grasslands shade and nurse the bushes, which shade and nurture the fast growing pioneer trees. Nature doesn’t space these out. They grow fast and typically die out at the first hint of competition from other, longer lived species. Eventually the big, shade loving trees take over and a new generation of understory trees start growing beneath the canopy.

Each step builds and prepares the soil for the next step. Each step brings in new wildlife.

 

[Prometeo]

@EatenByLimestone 👍
it's a complex discussion, but natural, and everything goes smoothly, until you think to ornamental trees, at that point I can no longer follow these natural evolutions🤔

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Ornamentals are natural somewhere.

Many natives have variations that can add touches of color and different textures.

Little pockets of light through the canopy can allow primary trees to grow, rocks and stone add texture and small micro habitats for diversity. You can really have fun with ground covers along the edges where there’s much more sun. Water features can add even more. It’s really up to your imagination what can be done.

 

[Prometeo]

the initial choice is made, alternate plane + tulip tree
approved? 😁

 

[EbS-P]

That’s how I’d do it.