Dissapointed in New Blaze King King
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Attaboy
Member
Too much is being made of the heat being absorbed by the basement concrete walls, I remember as a young fellow playing in our basement in winter when it was -30°F outside and the homemade barrel stove was heating that basement and it was incredibly hot down there, the barrel stove was burning crap odds and ends from dad's projects not cord wood, very few wood burning stoves back then as we know them today. We get extremely cold winters here and the frost only goes down 40 to 48 inches the rest does not freeze below that level.
A modern wood stove should have no problem heating the OP's basement, as per the OP his previous smaller RSF stove kept the basement toasty warm. I remember my wife and I's first home with unfinished basement we installed a Old Timer Beaumont model wood stove not that big a stove, it would get so hot down there that the stove heat would chase us back upstairs, I would come back down 3-4 hours later and it was still extremely warm down there, the Old Timer was venting in to this large brick 22 ft chimney with a 8 x 12 clay tile liner located on a outside wall.
The OP's chimney although made of cinder block and the flues being lined with clay tile is centrally located in his house not on a exterior wall therefore once warmed up by his previous RSF stove it would radiate heat in to the upstairs.
His new setup just does not achieve this for him and probably never will in its present form for various reasons.
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A modern wood stove should have no problem heating the OP's basement, as per the OP his previous smaller RSF stove kept the basement toasty warm. I remember my wife and I's first home with unfinished basement we installed a Old Timer Beaumont model wood stove not that big a stove, it would get so hot down there that the stove heat would chase us back upstairs, I would come back down 3-4 hours later and it was still extremely warm down there, the Old Timer was venting in to this large brick 22 ft chimney with a 8 x 12 clay tile liner located on a outside wall.
The OP's chimney although made of cinder block and the flues being lined with clay tile is centrally located in his house not on a exterior wall therefore once warmed up by his previous RSF stove it would radiate heat in to the upstairs.
His new setup just does not achieve this for him and probably never will in its present form for various reasons.
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brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
)You are absolutely wrong. As someone who has heated from the same basement with the same stove with that basement uninsulated and then insulated I can tell you there ia a huge difference in the amount of heat that makes it upstairs after I insulated. And I no longer have snow melted around the house like I used to. Yes if you pump enough btus into the space you can over come it but you will be wasting about 1/3 of your heat.
Think about it what is going to stop the heat from going out through the masonry walls and into the ground?
The main difference is just the shear amount of heat being put into the basement. I believe my old stove had a higher output. I could drive it harder and over come the losses.
I had a similar experience to the OP's just not as severe.
I had a Shenandoah and now have the BK King.
Waisted heat or not, the OP had the impression that the stove would provide the same amount of heat or more than his old one with the benefit of possibly burning the same or less wood. Imagine his surprise when that didn't materialize. It's frustrating if you haven't been through it. You expect one thing and get another.
I'm my case, if I can't get away from creating creosote and I didn't reduce my wood consumption AND it's providing less heat than my old stove then I'm getting rid of it and putting the okd one back in. I'll save my money until I can afford a boiker.
Yes but that has nothing to do with radiant versus convection.
Yes it is obvious the stove is not working for him the way it is now. The question is does he want to invest the time and money to make this stove work or switch. But regardless of what stove he has insulating the basement is never a bad idea if that is where the stove is.
Attaboy
Member
bholler I have not said and never would I say that insulating the basement is not a good thing and would not be far superior in heating such space, of course it absolutely would be no if's or but's about it, what I am simply saying is that the OP's house was built in 1987 in 30 years it has never had a insulted basement and for some posters to say that the un-insulated basement is the problem behind the lack of the BK performance is absolutely false, 2 RSF wood stoves proved otherwise during 30 years.
Put a big enough radiant stove in and yes it will heat the space. And it will heat the soil out for several feet. But a big stove will do it, with about a 30+% heat loss which equates to burning a lot more wood to keep warm.
Woody Stover
Minister of Fire
I don't think I'm too mixed up, maybe just not clearly stating what I mean.
I didn't mean that radiation was being gathered by the hood; The air rising along the sides of the hot stove was heated and gathered by the hood. Looking back at page 3, it looks like convective shields on the sides of the stove, too.
I didn't say you would lose more or less heat, just said that you would still lose heat to the walls, even if you were heating air instead of radiating. Even with the blower on the Dutchwest, I could only gain about 1.5* an hour, due to 1" thick plaster-type wall covering in here. I can be blowing warm air off the stove but a ton of cold air is rolling down off my walls (or his basement walls,) off of a huge sq. footage area. You have to warm the walls up before you can really start to gain ground. That is what guys have said when heating from the basement...the heat really doesn't start coming upstairs until everything downstairs gets hot...walls and objects.
Woody Stover
Minister of Fire
I saw one row of bricks in there, I figured there would be some sides above that in a 3 cu.ft. box...there's quite a bit above the bricks in the mighty Buck, and that's like 2.8 cu.ft.
Whaddya mean? My Keystone is already one big soapstone brick....two thick!Yeah that way he can make more efficienthis keystone
Niko made Marshy take his stove (BK) out of his signature when it came to light that Marshy was loading his stove every five hours. Niko felt that it would tarnish BK's long-burn reputation and be bad for business.
lsucet
Minister of Fire
My Keystone is already one big soapstone brick....two thick!
Oh ok now i get why is not ...............
Anyone who's been around for a while will remember wkpoor had an issue with heating from his basement after swapping out his old stove for a modern stove. He ended up getting a "clear air elm" stove that worked better for him. IIRC it was an old elm that had a secondary air kit added to it.
Another member(oldspark) was unhappy with his a summit after going from an old flame thrower and his was on his main floor. IIRC he even added a new chimney to get the performance he wanted without any luck.
I recall another member(can't remember his name) installed an nc 30 in his basement and wasn't happy with it coming from a fisher(maybe). For some reason I "think" I remember him swapping to the old stove when it was cold and using the 30 when it warmed up for the better wood usage.
While the majority of us are happy with modern sometimes modern just doesn't work for some people.
Another member(oldspark) was unhappy with his a summit after going from an old flame thrower and his was on his main floor. IIRC he even added a new chimney to get the performance he wanted without any luck.
I recall another member(can't remember his name) installed an nc 30 in his basement and wasn't happy with it coming from a fisher(maybe). For some reason I "think" I remember him swapping to the old stove when it was cold and using the 30 when it warmed up for the better wood usage.
While the majority of us are happy with modern sometimes modern just doesn't work for some people.
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Squisher
Minister of Fire
I've heated from the basement in three different homes. One the last six years and the one before that for 12 years and the third one was from when I was a kid.
All three have had centrally located interior masonry chimneys and insulated walls. No issues heating in our climate.
Two years ago I went from my monster Lakewood pre EPA to my summit and couldn't be happier. Despite the summit being a much smaller firebox. I've burned pre EPA btu monsters my whole life and still now heat my home from the basement with a interior masonry chimney with zero issues with the new summit. It's -15c out right now and I didn't bother lighting the insert today and my upstairs living area is 22.5 Celsius.
So ime. Going from a monster of a pre EPA stove to my summit. Output is not lacking. I still own and run the old stove in my shop probably 3-4 days a week. So it's not like I've forgotten what the old one was like.
If someone's having issues getting heat from a summit, It's the setup, the operation, or the fuel.
Lakemonster, err I mean Lakewood! That's 8"pipe on that sucker. I bet it holds close to twice the wood as my summit. Couldn't be happier with the output of my summit in comparison.
All three have had centrally located interior masonry chimneys and insulated walls. No issues heating in our climate.
Two years ago I went from my monster Lakewood pre EPA to my summit and couldn't be happier. Despite the summit being a much smaller firebox. I've burned pre EPA btu monsters my whole life and still now heat my home from the basement with a interior masonry chimney with zero issues with the new summit. It's -15c out right now and I didn't bother lighting the insert today and my upstairs living area is 22.5 Celsius.
So ime. Going from a monster of a pre EPA stove to my summit. Output is not lacking. I still own and run the old stove in my shop probably 3-4 days a week. So it's not like I've forgotten what the old one was like.
If someone's having issues getting heat from a summit, It's the setup, the operation, or the fuel.
Lakemonster, err I mean Lakewood! That's 8"pipe on that sucker. I bet it holds close to twice the wood as my summit. Couldn't be happier with the output of my summit in comparison.
Attaboy
Member
Niko made Marshy take his stove (BK) out of his signature when it came to light that Marshy was loading his stove every five hours. Niko felt that it would tarnish BK's long-burn reputation and be bad for business.
We have all heard of '' Playing for change ''
or
'' This Bud's for you ''
Well Niko this BUMP's for you !
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I'm not going to debate radiation vs convection in this thread but do I agree with you and leave it at that.
I also agree with your second statement but the real question is will the stove be able to meet his demands even if he invests the time and additional money to get the stove configured in the most ideal way AND insulate his basement. Thats going to cost a couple grand more and it's still gamble IMO that the work/time/money wont pay off.
I felt the same way when I got my stove! However, in some situations when it was really cold it might be argued that the stove was being pushed too hard, not every day but on occasion. For that reason I wanted something that was compliant and safe and could heat my house so I chose the King but found that it did not put out as much heat. I did not blame the stove, I did the work I needed to rule out my fuel and made sure I had proper draft. The only thing that I can conclude is the stove is a little undersized for my application and may well be for the OP as well. My choices left are to live with it, insulate the basement, or get a different stove or appliance (boiler or furnace). At one point I was considering a Thermo-control but was scare it would have terrible efficiency and possibly be a creosote pump. The idea was it will provide some heat to the hydronic system but also radiate/convect half of its heat.
The wood consumption for the OP is not a concern and it was not mine either before I bought the King. It was manageable and not excessive IMO. I believe I'm on pace to burn the same amount of wood as I normally do. I know there is variation from year to year but I was hopeful to see a reduction in consumption. It was supposed to be a side benefit of going with more efficient stove, it wasn't my deciding factor though.
Lol, I load the BK to the max every 8 hrs or so. The stove cannot burn it any faster than that without self calibrating the damper. If it could I would get more heat! I'd rather not damage the stove until the warranty is up though.Niko made Marshy take his stove (BK) out of his signature when it came to light that Marshy was loading his stove every five hours. Niko felt that it would tarnish BK's long-burn reputation and be bad for business.
I am coming to the conclusion that for my wants and needs, this stove isn't for me.
I feel I can get better heating, going to a secondary burn type of stove or a furnace, with a strong lean towards a furnace equipped with it's own distribution ducting and, possibly, return air system to be used when the furnace is on. Will be discussing the options with a definite eye to code compliance as well as heat output. The downside to a furnace, is the need for power to run it. I have a couple generators around, but...
A while ago someone asked about the cost to run the blower fans to distribute the heat around the house. Well, without any real numbers, I will say that it is a lot cheaper to run the fans, at say 1/3 HP/250 or so watts, than to run the fans PLUS 68000 BTU of electric heat element in the furnace. The general layout around here is not very conducive to running a combined wood/electric furnace, which would incur more costs, again.
Sitting and watching the way the gasses flow around the inside of the airbox as the stove is lit, as well as when the stove is loaded over a bed of coals, I see no possibility of dragging enough air through the bypass door, to be able to keep any reasonable amount of airflow through the door, which is easily over 5 times the area of the bypass. That the bypass is in the center of the ceiling of the interior of the stove, and some distance below the height of the top of the door, exacerbates this problem. Now, you add the sloped inwards door, allowing the smoke off the near ends of a fresh load to rise straight up and out, and that leaves me really not liking this. The stink, well, simply makes me angry about the stove when I have to smell it. I have found that I cannot load the stove or relight it and then add wood, without having to endure it. At best, it's 'not as bad', as opposed to my desire, which is 'it's not a problem'.
Now, I am of the opinion that spending another whackload on the chimney, isn't going to make this go away. This I conclude, based upon the way the stove behaves when relighting, with the bypass open, and having to carefully modulate the amount the door is open, even while the flames within, are driving straight up the chimney through the bypass, circumstances which on the previous stove, essentially allowed me to leave the door wide open, while I fed in more fuel.
And yeah, insulating down here would be an improvement. as was pointed out though, it wasn't that big a deal, until I swapped out the stove for one that I thought should have been quite a case of overkill for my circumstances, if all you went by was comparative examination of the rated outputs.
I have been getting pretty much the temps I am told I should be(high 700's F), on top of the stove, as well as the burn times I am led to believe I should (10+ hours on a full load, on Maximum setting), and the heat just does not seem to be there.
All said and done, I will see in a couple days, what will end up happening to this stove, if it will be traded in, sold privately, or installed somewhere that does not require extensive modifications to existing infrastructure, in order that it meet the installation instructions and recommendations to the letter.
In any case, the heating season will be coming to a close very soon, I have a Pacific Energy (not sure the model, but not their largest) stove that I can install in the meantime, if I must, to get through the shoulder season. Or I put off giving away the old RSF (destined to become a heater in a Sauna, out in the bush near here, and re-install that.
As I posted on another Forum, I don't really care if the new stove runs on a mixture of spotted owl fat, baby seal tears, and shredded tires, as long as it throws heat, and lots of it.
Will keep y'all posted as to the discussions. Probably Wed night, or Thursday, if I am late getting home.
Cheers
Trev
jetsam
Minister of Fire
Look at it from another angle:
Take 50# of imaginary wood and consider burning it in your old stove, then consider burning an identical load in your new stove.
The BK is freeing more BTUs from that 50# of wood than the old smoke dragon did because it's burning more of the combustibles that previously went up the flue. If both burned on high, it's a small increase; if both burned on low, it's a huge increase.
Your house actually uses some of the 'waste' heat from the flue to heat the house; with a more efficient stove you're getting less of that.
So where the heck did all those BTUs go- the old ones that used to go up the flue, and the new ones liberated by the cat?
I put it to you that they all go to your basement, where they have an infinite heat sink in the exposed masonry walls and floor.
I don't think you *should* do this due to safety concerns, but it seems like you'd probably heat the house effectively with your circulation system and basement insulation.
However, given that this is unsafe, I think you're right to look at a properly installed furnace.
prezes13
Minister of Fire
I was reading this post for a while. My input on it is that eventough BK king model is a monster heater it doesn't provide enough btus for what is needed to keep op house warm. The only stove I have ever run till recently was my cape cod insert which does pretty good job heating my modern house. However, we went to Maine and rented a house-cabin for a week with an older fisher stove in it. I never run an old smoke dragon. All I can say now I understand why people don't want to give back on them. We we're straggling to keep that place under 77 degrees. One morning with 9 degrees outside and 82 inside I saw water dropping from icicles on the roof. I know they go thgrough wood like there is no tomorrow, I am sure they are inefficient but the raw heating power cannot be beat. That is why people like op with un insulated basement and maybe other problems who ran those dragons before and were able to heat their houses, will have problems heating their houses with a modern stove. I totally understand his frustration. If the sales person was educated enough and took pride in his job all that bad experience for Trevor wouldn't happen.
I want to return to the comment about the old stove heating the chimney. I can’t remember who pointed it out , but I believe the old stove heating the chimney contributed a good deal to heating the house above the basement
My old smoke dragon was a Jotul combi-fire hooked to a stainless steel insulated class a chimney that ran up the center of the second floor. When the Jotul was lit, the chimney was way too hot to touch, you’d burn your fingers (2nd degree) . Now that I’ve switched to an epa approved progress hybrid, that same chimney is cool to the touch. In effect, radiation from the hot chimney was heating the second floor with the non epa stove.
The OP’s new stove has a heat rate (BTU/hr) that is a lot lower ( that’s how you get long burn times) , and some of that heat is lost to the uninsulated basement walls. However, insulating the basement many not fix the problem. First, the rate of heat dumped into the basement and house will still be lower than that with the EPA stove. Second the mechanism of heating the house may have been partially warm air circulation, but also radiation from heat lost up the hot chimney by the old non epa stove
My old smoke dragon was a Jotul combi-fire hooked to a stainless steel insulated class a chimney that ran up the center of the second floor. When the Jotul was lit, the chimney was way too hot to touch, you’d burn your fingers (2nd degree) . Now that I’ve switched to an epa approved progress hybrid, that same chimney is cool to the touch. In effect, radiation from the hot chimney was heating the second floor with the non epa stove.
The OP’s new stove has a heat rate (BTU/hr) that is a lot lower ( that’s how you get long burn times) , and some of that heat is lost to the uninsulated basement walls. However, insulating the basement many not fix the problem. First, the rate of heat dumped into the basement and house will still be lower than that with the EPA stove. Second the mechanism of heating the house may have been partially warm air circulation, but also radiation from heat lost up the hot chimney by the old non epa stove
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Here's MY other angle. I wasn't shopping for the best possible economy. I was shopping for a stove that pounded out the heat. This stove has been lackluster in that department. So relative to each other, the amount of wood is not nearly as material to this comparison, as the amount of heat in the house is. I get my wood for free. LOTS of wood.
I have roughly 800 acres of standing fir on private property, plus access to a great deal more than that, should I desire to travel that distance, in our Wood Lot, and on the Crown Land beyond, above my house. Really, y'all gotta believe me when I say that economy wasn't anything but a secondary or tertiary benefit. between gas, oil, chains, etc., I am well under $20 per cord, I think.
In car terms, had I wanted a Prius, I'd have shopped for one. I appear to have got a Camry that doesn't have the snot to actually pull out and pass, let alone while climbing a hill. From my perspective. I was told it would perform. I paid extra for the bigger engine!
The heat I gained from the warmed mass of brick, was a secondary and relatively minor, but none the less present benefit. In my mind, the real benefit I had before, that I no longer do, was that the chimney stayed free of build up, to the extent that running a brush down it was pretty much a formality, vs. being pretty much a requirement now.
Cannot actually tell you about burning on 'low'. Have been running WFO since I started it. The dial sits at about the 6:30 position at full max, and it gets turned down to 4:30-5:00 at night.
I am getting less loss up the chimney, I am sure. I am also getting lower indoor temperatures than I really expected. Warm enough for comfort here in the room with the stove, the rest of the house, not so much. i can tell you with some authority, I really didn't pay this much to have one warm room.
Anyways, off to render some spotted owl fat. Got a couple barrels of seal tears set aside, and a stack of tires.
I see the dealer in person tomorrow. Many things to sort out.
Cheers
Trev
Squisher
Minister of Fire
I'll probably get roasted over a slow fire for saying it. But I'll say it again. I moved from a pre EPA monster to my summit and there's been no disappoint for me. This is after a lifetime of burning pre EPA stoves and then replacing the one in my existing home with my summit. My wood goes further as I'm losing less heat/smoke out the top of the stack and my house stays as warm if not warmer. Burning through the night no longer requires a ritual of careful planning as it did with the pre EPA monster, it's easy peasy now.
So those that say you can't get the heat out of these newer stoves, I'd say. Try a summit!
So those that say you can't get the heat out of these newer stoves, I'd say. Try a summit!
It is pretty high on the list of stoves I am looking at. I need to go check out the PE stove (it is in the basement of rental here on the property) I have, and see which model it is. I know from it having been installed as a stop-gap, that it can throw some pretty serious heat, but it was not able to both throw heat AND last the night, in a house that only has wood.
I'll keep you posted on what the dealer offers.
Cheers
Trev
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