Help narrowing down my choices

[abibibo]

First time wood stove buyer here. Over the last couple of weeks I've been digesting the wealth of information available on the forum archives and am super appreciative of all the knowledgeable and helpful member's contributions ... but also a little overwhelmed with all the options available (maybe I would have been better off blindly buying a mediocre wood stove and never knowing what I was missing out on ;-) ). In any case, I'm hoping for some help narrowing down what stove fits my needs best.

Our house is 1350 square foot, 1.5 story 1928 bungalow that we are currently restoring, with about 850 ft2 downstairs and another ~500 ft2 in a converted attic. Down the road we may add another ~600 ft2 addition. We're locating in western Oregon, with average winter highs and lows between 35 and 50 °F. Current heat is a ductless heat pump in the living room of the main floor and supplemented by Cadet wall heaters in each room. A woodstove would at a minimum supplement the electric heating, although getting a woodstove that can be our primary heat source (at least outside of city burn restriction windows) for the whole house would be a big plus.

My wife and I are pretty frugal, and initially we planned on waiting for whatever deal we could score on Craigslist, or, based on recommendations from this forum, possibly a small Englander from Lowes (although I'm not blown away by the Englander's aesthetics and as our living room is fairly small, whatever we choose will end up being a prominent feature in our relatively small living room). However, I recently learned Oregon has some potentially generous tax credits that expire soon , so if I make a purchase before the end of the year these credits bring a number of new and more premium stoves into our price range. To qualify for the Oregon credit the stove needs to have emissions below 3.5g/hr, but the more substantial credits are for those stoves with high measured EPA efficiency (up to $1296 off for Kuma Sequoia with it's 84% EPA measured efficiency, though I think that stove would be too big to fit aesthetically in our 18' x 13' living room).

At this point I haven't decided whether I'll go with a cat or non-cat. I really like the looks of some of the smaller Jotul's, like the F118CB or the F45 Grenville, but worry about their ability to burn overnight and whether I'll need to be constantly re-fueling.

On the other end of the spectrum, extremely long burn times out of something like a Blaze King Sirocco or WoodStock Ideal Steel and the extra large tax credits Oregon is currently providing for these high-efficiency stove's is appealing, although I'm not sure how good these big stoves would look in our smallish living room (also not sold on the Sirocco and Ideal Steel's aesthetics; the BK Ashford looks much more appealing but is also priced similarly).

I guess at this point my questions are:

1) With something like a smaller Jotul F45 Greenville or 118 CB, can I really expect substantial base-load heating, or with their size and need to re-fuel will these more likely become supplemental space heaters for when we're hanging out in the living room?

2) On the cat stove's, are there any options I'm missing, maybe a bit smaller than a blaze king (even the Sirroco 20 seems big compared to those Jotuls) that would allow for prolonged home heating? I realize small and long burn times are pretty much mutually exclusive, so I wouldn't necessarily be looking for 20+ hours.

3) Any other points I should consider?

Thanks so much!

 

[begreen]

I wouldn't go larger than a 2 cu ft stove for your place unless you want to have a sauna. Eugene's climate is mild. The F45 Grenville should do the job. It's a better stove than the F118 and it will provide you will a good fireview.

A cat stove like the BK Sirocco or Ashford is a different animal and would also work well. These stoves are particularly good at burning low and slow. That's a good match for Eugene's mild climate zone. These stoves are a little more complex to operate and maintain, but do a great job of maintaining a set temperature because they have thermostatic operation.

Regardless of the stove choice, all modern stoves need well seasoned, dry wood to burn properly. That is almost impossible to find at this time of the year unless the seller split the wood a year ago and has stored it covered.

 

[ddddddden]

The Ideal Steel is a big stove. If you go with Woodstock, you probably want the Absolute Steel. . .or the Fireview / Keystone, if you're into the stone thing. The aesthetics don't get any better, IMO, but stone stoves have more gaskets than steel stoves, as do cast iron stoves, which eventually means more maintenance.

BK is also an excellent choice. I like the F45 too. . .like you said, you need to decide cat / non-cat. You have a better chance of not roasting yourself out of a "smallish" room with a cat stove, and you will probably qualify for the the "more substantial" tax credits with any cat stove.

 

[Woody Stover]

In Eugene, if your insulation and air-sealing are good you shouldn't need a big stove at all. Good weatherization will also largely obviate the need for a low, steady burn; You can use a tube stove, which has more output swing, because when output swings to the low part of the curve, your tight house will glide along on the heat that was released at the high end of the cycle.

 

[abibibo]

Thanks so much for the replies. Nice to hear the good reviews on the F45 which at least helps me rule out the 118. My house is almost a century old, so I wouldn't consider it air tight, but it does have newer windows and wall insulation so hopefully it will hold it's heat okay with any of the non-cat stoves.

On the cat side, I didn't realize the Absolute steels were smaller. I'll have to give them more consideration (though I agree about the step down in looks). However, I actually have a lead on a used Keystone (unfortunately the OR tax credit doesn't apply on a new Palladium/Keystone or Fireview). The outside of the unit looks like it will at least need some heavy polishing, so I'll have to have a look at what shape it's insides are in. I take it the BK and the Woodstock's are both similar in their abilities to regulate down to a lower temperature?

Thanks again!

 

[Woody Stover]

There are several threads, I think with 'used Keystone/Fireview' in the title, that tell how to check out these stoves. A Keystone should do the job in your climate. But in your shoes I might be tempted to go for the Absolute. You've got a new stove, the tax credit, a box bigger than the Fireview and at a pretty reasonable price. You can turn that thing low, and with the added wood it will hold you are in for some real long burns. I keep telling 'em that Woodstock is da chit in cat stoves but if they don't wanna learn, you can't teach 'em. That said, I think the Greenville would be great as well, and no cat to mess with.

 

[cjgoode]

While I cannot help with which stove, one thing I focused on for my NC house with similar winter tempts maybe slightly colder, was not just the maximum heat output BTU's to make sure you can heat your house, but also the minimum heat output BTU's so you can run it without burning yourself out of your house. I found some of the bigger stoves with a higher BTU also had a lower minimum BTU's then a slightly smaller stove. Just a thought to consider.

 

[ddddddden]

On the cat side, I didn't realize the Absolute steels were smaller. I'll have to give them more consideration (though I agree about the step down in looks.)

I could do the "Plain" version. Basic steel stove aesthetic. Large window. They'll probably paint it any color you like.

I take it the BK and the Woodstocks are both similar in their abilities to regulate down to a lower temperature?

Yes and no. BK's thermostat will let it run lower without risking stalling the cat if the draft falls too low. At least that's my impression. . .never actually burned a BK. OTOH, BK's, at least some models, are kinda known for having black glass from burning low like that. Not that you can't burn a BK higher when you want to clean the glass or have a flame show, but the "hybrid" Woodstock will probably put on a better show.

Any stove with a cat will let you burn lower than a non-cat. EPA mandates a minimum amount of intake air on non-cats, because they smolder below that level. Any stove does, but a cat will eat the smoke, so EPA lets cat stoves have lower intake air settings. Soo, if you go non-cat, and you're trying not to overheat your smallish living room, sometimes you will have to regulate the heat output by loading less wood, and then your burn time gets even shorter, which you may or may not care about, depending on how your house holds heat, etc.

 

[Zack R]

I have the Jotul F45 (installed in September) and its done a great job thus far. It has no problem with overnight burns (even on pine) however with a mild climate like Eugene it might be overkill if you have a small space (unless its a cold and drafty house in which case it might be ideal). I now use it for 100% of our heating needs, the electric furnace is only used when we are out of town.

I have a newer house (2004) with good insulation and on the coldest days we've had so far this year (high 30 low 10F) I still wake up to 68-70F in the room where the stove is, especially if I load it up the night before (going to bed temp in the stove room is around 77F).

How does your wood situation look? The F45 will consume less than ideal logs if a hot fire is already going but it really prefers seasoned wood.

The best part about having a wood stove is that you are always comfortably warm, even T shirt warm on cold days. No more sweaters in the house!

 

[BIGChrisNH]

Another vote for the Jotul F45. There's a cabin I rent in northern NH for camping trips every year and they replaced the old Nashua that was in there with a Jotul F45 and I figured we'd be freezing on winter camping trips up there, but it has done a great job on the two cold weather trips I've been on up there, and that's in an uninsulated log cabin. Kept coals easily overnight too. Simple to run, just the one primary air control. Seems to be well made as well. I really liked using it.

 

[Zack R]

One more thing I've really enjoyed on the F45 is that the glass is always clean. Once in a while I wipe it down with a wet paper towel but for the most part it doesn't need cleaning.

 

[abibibo]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies and input.

I agree the "Plain" Absolute Steel is the only one I'd consider. The others might look fine in the right house/cabin, but wouldn't fit well in my place.

Nice to also hear the input on the F45. Walking around in t-shirts all winter will take some getting used to ... right now we've been wearing winter jackets right up until we get under our electric blankets ;-).

For wood, I've currently got about 1/2 cord from a dead birch we took out this summer (only been stacked for a couple months, but hopefully dried out some after standing dead for a couple years). But, I'm more concerned with getting a stove that will suit us for years, and can put up with another couple months of a cold house if need be

Will let you all know which way I end up going. Thanks again.

 

[begreen]

If you get some doug fir split and stacked by the end of winter it should be ready for next fall.

 

[abibibo]

So I just had a look at the used Palladian in person last night. The external cast iron has some considerable rust and it would need complete repainting, but the soapstone and internals look to be in reasonably good shape. No visible signs of over-firing, warping or whitening of the firebox, and damper + bypass valves appear to move smoothly. However, it does have a broken andiron and at least the gasket holding the rear firebox soapstone needs replacement. Cat looked to be in good condition (I'm told the cat is 1.5 yr old, but seller only had the stove installed for 2 months and removed since it wasn't heating his much bigger house). So, some considerable work involved cleaning it up, but parts seem to be available and reasonably priced and it's just a matter of finding time for another project alongside our house restoration.

Biggest concern is that the EPA certification is no longer legible on the label. However, I called Woodstock and based on the serial number the unit is a current, certified Palladian 202 manufactured in 2007. But still a little concerned if the city building inspector will balk at the missing certification label when I try and get it permitted.

That said, I like the size and aesthetics of the stove best of all the recommended Cat's I've looked at (assuming my re-painting turns out good) and if the Oregon tax credit applied to these I'd have considered purchasing one new.

Seller is asking $750, but I'm hoping he'd come down some given the work that will be required making the stove pretty again. Think the price is fair given the condition? Think I'll have any issues getting the install permitted with the worn off EPA certification? Any chance I'm missing major flaws in the internal's given that I don't have much previous stove experience?

 

[begreen]

If the serial number is still visible I think Woodstock can provide you certification documentation for inspection. The Woodstock Palladian is EPA certified at 1.9gms.hr. Why wouldn't this qualify for the OR tax credit?

 

[Woody Stover]

$750 is a deal for a Palladian in decent shape. You can try talking him down a little but I would be happy getting the stove for that price. It's essentially the same stove I have, and it has a good burn time for its size. If you can get some Madrona at some point, it will put out useful heat for 12 hrs. or so, and should handle your weatherized house in your climate pretty easily. I love my little Keystone. Woodstock parts are reasonably priced..the andiron won't cost much at all.

 

[abibibo]

If the serial number is still visible I think Woodstock can provide you certification documentation for inspection. The Woodstock Palladian is EPA certified at 1.9gms.hr. Why wouldn't this qualify for the OR tax credit?

Sorry, I misspoke. It does qualify for a small ~$200 credit. But the really big OR credits (up to ~$1k, based on efficiency) are reserved for stoves where the manufacturer has paid for the EPA's newer "actual measured efficiency" test and are on the EPA's list. Alas, only the Woodstock hybrids have a measured efficiency on the EPA's current list. So I can get those models for a grand off, but the Palladian, Keystone or Fireview only fall under the smaller < 3.5 g/hr particulates credit.

 

[abibibo]

$750 is a deal for a Palladian in decent shape. You can try talking him down a little but I would be happy getting the stove for that price. It's essentially the same stove I have, and it has a good burn time for its size. If you can get some Madrona at some point, it will put out useful heat for 12 hrs. or so, and should handle your weatherized house in your climate pretty easily. I love my little Keystone. Woodstock parts are reasonably priced..the andiron won't cost much at all.

Good to know! From my brief call with Woodstock, they seem like a really stand-up company eager to help you even if you bought second hand.

I take it Madrona is stove paint? Also, anyone have experience refinishing a Woodstock? If I really want to get all the rust off before painting, getting a wire brush in all the diamond patterning on the Palladian seems challenging.

 

[Woody Stover]

Yeah, for several hundred bux more you can have a new stove. Hard to pass on that deal.

From my brief call with Woodstock, they seem like a really stand-up company eager to help you even if you bought second hand.
I take it Madrona is stove paint?

Yep, the staff at Woodstock will bend over backwards to help in any way they can.
Madrona is a dense, high output, long-burning wood specie.

 

[begreen]

Sorry, I misspoke. It does qualify for a small ~$200 credit. But the really big OR credits (up to ~$1k, based on efficiency) are reserved for stoves where the manufacturer has paid for the EPA's newer "actual measured efficiency" test and are on the EPA's list. Alas, only the Woodstock hybrids have a measured efficiency on the EPA's current list. So I can get those models for a grand off, but the Palladian, Keystone or Fireview only fall under the smaller < 3.5 g/hr particulates credit.

Agreed, if you choose to get the used stove Woodstock will work with your to get it in good condition. It's too bad that they have not certified their original mainline stoves for the AME testing. A Blaze King Sirocco 20 stove would meet the heating needs and has this testing. It is thermostatically controlled and can run at low output.

 

[sutphenj]

Agreed, if you choose to get the used stove Woodstock will work with your to get it in good condition. It's too bad that they have not certified their original mainline stoves for the AME testing. A Blaze King Sirocco 20 stove would meet the heating needs and has this testing. It is thermostatically controlled and can run at low output.

What is AME testing and why is it important.

 

[begreen]

What is AME testing and why is it important.

"actual measured efficiency" It's important because states are using this as a reference for standards and in this case the size of their rebate.

 

[ddddddden]

...the gasket holding the rear firebox soapstone needs replacement...

I'm not intimately familiar with the Palladian, but what you noticed may be some missing furnace cement that Woodstock puts on all the seams inside the firebox. No big deal to re-goop the seams. A 10-year-old Woodstock that hasn't been abused should not need a complete tear down and new gaskets between stones, just the standard wear & tear gaskets(loading door, bypass door, cat frame, maybe window.) Woodstock sells all the routine maintenance gaskets in a kit with gasket glue and a tube of cement for ~ $50. Not sure how tough it would be to get the rust off, but painting involves masking the stone and going to town with a few cans of Stove Bright spray paint.

That said, if you can get $1,000 or $1,200 in rebates on a new stove. . .
Decisions. Decisions.

 

[Woody Stover]

Not sure how tough it would be to get the rust off, but painting involves masking the stone and going to town with a few cans of Stove Bright spray paint. That said, if you can get $1,000 or $1,200 in rebates on a new stove. . .
Decisions. Decisions.

Bah..unless the wife was real picky, I might hit the cast with a little steel wool or a brush, slap some stove polish on it and call it a day. Agreed, a new stove is tempting with those kind of rebates, especially with the low initial price of the Absolute..

 

[ddddddden]

Bah..unless the wife was real picky, I might hit the cast with a little steel wool or a brush, slap some stove polish on it and call it a day. . .

Me too!
. . .but it sounds like the apearance of the stove is high on OP's list of criteria. I've got it! Buy both! Get a new stove with rebates, and put in a standing offer for $500 on the Palladian. Burn the new stove this season, and if the Palladian seller gets back to you, refurb it this summer. Try the Palladian out next season, then sell whichever one you like less. "One of us! One of us!"