Help on options for new home

[enigma]

Hello all,

First post here with limited knowledge of the proper terminology so forgive me in advance.

Just moved into a new home. Two stories...primary heating concern is the roughly 1000 square foot downstairs area which is all fairly open. Any excess heat that drifted upstairs would be considered bonus, but not expected. I think I am most interested in a wood insert to heat the space. However, I believe I have a pre-fabricated fireplace which, as I understand it, significantly limits my insert options. I'll attach a picture of the fireplace. The "platform" area extending parallel to the floor at the base of the fireplace is about 1.5 feet in length, if the picture is difficult to see.

My hope is that someone can give me some information on what I have here and/or confirmation that my insert options are indeed limited. I would hope that even if the options are limited, that an insert does exist that could go in that space to allow wood to be utilized. I have seen a few models that have zero-clearance listed as options within the Lopi and Avalon brands, but was unsure as to if they are options for me.

I am awaiting a professional visit from an installer to get an on-site opinion, but was hoping to get some education from you all prior to that. Thanks in advance for your help and insight.

 

[begreen]

Greetings. It does look like a ZC fireplace. Although that limits options, it may not be too restrictive for your needs. What are the opening dimensions and what is the depth? Do you know the brand of the unit?

 

[enigma]

Thanks for the fast help.

I've tried to update the picture with the measurements. I looked around the edges of the fireplace and came across a tag/label indicating that it is a Superior RDI-36.

 

[begreen]

That is a narrow opening. It's hard to see from the picture if the opening can be made larger. Look to see if there is a face or trim plate that can be removed.

 

[enigma]

At first glance, the black metal lining the front of the fireplace looks like it should come off. It sounds hollow behind it, but the edges appear to be cemented to the surroundings as you can hopefully see on this image. Behind that metal within the fireplace slightly are a number of screws which I assume hold the existing "firebox" area within the frame.

Bummer to hear that the opening is small, though. Hopefully something can be done with this space. I wonder if trying to remove the black metal plating on the edges, if it is cemented in there, would significantly damage the adjacent structure.

 

[velvetfoot]

I have a small one in my Heatilator.
Dimensions are in there.
(broken link removed)
These guys make small inserts too:
http://www.enviro.com/images/manuals-brochures/owners-manuals/C-11501 Instruction Woodstoves 1200 & 1700 Owner's Manual.pdf
Key is to look at the installation manuals.
Check specs on the current insert and see if it meets insert manufacturer requirements.
I think kd460 installed an Enviro 1700 in his Heatilator.
Big is nice, but I didn't have to make any mods to my hearth, if that's a factor.

 

[kd460]

Hello, congratulations on the new home!

Anyways, let me dig right in. I am posting here instead of responding with the info in the form of a pm, as others may benefit from this info as well.

Yes, you need to find an insert that is "zero clearance" approved. Some are, some are not and some are but for some reason they do not list it. The first thing I would do is search on google for all the insert manufacturers. Then look for something that will fit. Then look for something that is zero clearance approved. If it is not listed, then contact the manufacturer and ask.

The dimensions you need are depth, height, and width. You need to measure the back of the fireplace width, as well as the front because your fireplace probably tapers or gets smaller in the back. The height will probably be the first biggest problem. I believe Country Flame (now owned by Lennox?) makes an insert that may work. Model 02 insert?

The other and just as important dimension you need to pay attention to is the chimney/flue location. When things are that tight (smaller openings) you will not have any room to bend the chimney liner. So the location of the insert flue must line up with the current location of your ZC fireplace flue pipe (your current double wall chimney). The next way to determine that is to measure your current chimney center from front, back, left and right. Draw a sketch of this or maybe download the installation manual for your current fireplace and it should give you these dimensions.

Now read the manuals on the insert that you are considering or the one or two that may fit your basic dimensions, and you will find similar dimensions showing the exact center of the inserts flue.

Now, if you found one that fits the height, width and depth of your fireplace, then see if the chimney flues line up. If you get a match for that, then make sure it is ZC approved. If that happens, then things are looking good. Just one more caveat. You need to be able to connect the liner that you will be installing inside your current chimney. And if things are as tight as mine was, then you will need to have an insert that allows you to install the actual flue collar from the inside of the insert. Hard to describe this, but if you read the manual on the Kodiak 1700 insert, you will see what I am talking about. The problem is, there will be no room for you to drill holes, install pop rivets, screw collars down, etc. So if you can install the insert collar to the flex chimney liner first, then slide the insert in, then secure the collar to the insert from the inside of the insert, then you are golden. Hopefully my explanation was fairly clear.

I don't recall my exact dimensions, but 20 inches high on my opening from bottom to top comes to mind. It appears that yours is even smaller. Unfortunately, this will reduce your selection greatly, but, there has got to be something out there.

Keep looking, searching, and reading. You will find something. I feel I got lucky finding the Kodiak. It was big, it fit nicely, everything lined up (barely), and it is built like a tank. I did give up some aesthetics as the Kodiak is kind of plain looking, but oh well, I can live with it. Especially when I look at the heat bill in the dead of winter. I just smile.

One more thing, you will eventually need to remove the damper inside you chimney (just above the fireplace opening), and the only other modification you can do is to remove the smoke deflector shield. It may be necessary to do this to give you a little more clearance. It usually can be just unscrewed. It may give you another inch. You will see the shield up front, above the fireplace opening. It looks just like a "shield". You can not permanently alter the fireplace. It must be altered in a way that will allow it to be returned to it's prior state. So cutting and bending is out of the question. When you see the deflector, you will know what I am talking about.

Hope this helps and happy hunting. I will snoop around a bit as well. If I find anything, I will post a link here. KD

EDIT: (broken link removed to http://www.countryflame.com/units/wd-cat-o2.html)

 

[enigma]

Anyone have any experience or thoughts about possibly extending the hearth slightly and installing a wood stove instead of insert? Not sure if that is even a possibility or if it would be aesthetically acceptable, but I am just trying to get an idea of all the possibilities.

 

[fossil]

The possibilities are endless...your checking account balance may not be. Different situation in some respects, but we sealed off an old open fireplace, built an extended hearth, and installed a freestanding stove with an all interior stovepipe to a cathedral ceiling. The old masonry structure is now completely decommissioned. Rick

 

[enigma]

Possible dumb question alert:

When looking at insert manuals for clearances and sizing, I am a bit confused. Mainly because I am not sure where the insert goes, I think. Does an insert get placed into the existing fireplace? Or is that somehow removed and the insert becomes the new lining to the space in the wall? Not sure if that made sense...using my pictures....would an insert fit directly into the grey area already in the fireplace?

The confusion, I think, is that if the grey thing stays in there (which I think it must) and the insert goes inside of that, the vertical opening is 19 inches. That seems pretty small based on the numbers I am seeing in the manuals of different inserts. The lowest minimum height requirement I have come across is 19 3/4" for the Lopi Revere.

 

[velvetfoot]

Did you look at the 2700i?
It looks like 18.75 to me, page 4 of the manual.
I'm sure that others will fit.
I think you can grind down the ceramic lip if you have to.

 

[enigma]

If the lip can be ground down a bit, that would be very helpful. I wonder how much could realistically could be taken out. I did look at the 2700i, too.

 

[begreen]

If you can get 19.5" clear height, the Country Striker 160 might be installable. It is approved for Superior ZC fireplaces.

Otherwise, your idea of extending the hearth and putting a hearth stove may work. I'd look at the Hearthstone Homestead for starters.

What is the height from the hearth, to the top of the fireplace opening?

 

[enigma]

If you can get 19.5" clear height, the Country Striker 160 might be installable. It is approved for Superior ZC fireplaces.

Otherwise, your idea of extending the hearth and putting a hearth stove may work. I'd look at the Hearthstone Homestead for starters.

What is the height from the hearth, to the top of the fireplace opening?

What about the Country Performer C210? Unless I am reading it wrong, it looks like 18 for that.

I'll get that measurement for you when I get home tonight.

Thanks to everyone for the continued help.

 

[velvetfoot]

Don't forget, you want the biggest one you can get in there.
You do have to find a dealer to do it though.

 

[enigma]

Don't forget, you want the biggest one you can get in there.
You do have to find a dealer to do it though.

Understood and not to worry about the install. Seems like a good rule of thumb: Those who can't correctly name the parts of the fireplace/hearth (ie. me) shouldn't be thinking of doing installations.

 

[velvetfoot]

My point was also that you may be stuck with only a couple of choices depending on dealers within an X miles radius.

 

[enigma]

I am realizing that will come into play through my research of who installers up here work with. Thanks.

 

[begreen]

If you can get 19.5" clear height, the Country Striker 160 might be installable. It is approved for Superior ZC fireplaces.

Otherwise, your idea of extending the hearth and putting a hearth stove may work. I'd look at the Hearthstone Homestead for starters.

What is the height from the hearth, to the top of the fireplace opening?

What about the Country Performer C210? Unless I am reading it wrong, it looks like 18 for that.

I'll get that measurement for you when I get home tonight.

Thanks to everyone for the continued help.

Here's what I'm reading in the C210 docs:

The Performer™ C/A210 insert can only be installed in the
following brands of factory-built zero clearance fireplaces:
SUPERIOR, HEATILATOR, MAJESTIC, MARTIN, PREWAY,
MARCO, TEMCO, and FMI.
The fireplace cavity must be 36” (914mm) in width, 21”
(533mm) in height, and 14” (356mm) in depth. Installation
in larger size fireboxes of the same brands is permissible.

 

[the_dude]

This may be a stupid suggestion, as I am a newbie as well. But based on the limited stonework you have, I would consider removing the prefab completely and putting in an EPA fireplace. Cultured stone is relatively cheap, so even if you had to remove it all and redo, it wouldn't add a whole lot of $ to the project. It is just a thought. This at least gives you an option of picking the heater you want.

One other thing no one else has mentioned. Won't Enigma need new pipe as well? I assume the prefab currently uses pipe rated for 1700 degrees. Don't most inserts require class A 2100 degree pipe?

I forgot to mention, nice looking house!

 

[enigma]

Here's what I'm reading in the C210 docs:

The Performer™ C/A210 insert can only be installed in the
following brands of factory-built zero clearance fireplaces:
SUPERIOR, HEATILATOR, MAJESTIC, MARTIN, PREWAY,
MARCO, TEMCO, and FMI.
The fireplace cavity must be 36” (914mm) in width, 21”
(533mm) in height, and 14” (356mm) in depth. Installation
in larger size fireboxes of the same brands is permissible.

OK...that makes more sense.

I'm beginning to dislike the builder's choice of fireplaces

 

[enigma]

This may be a stupid suggestion, as I am a newbie as well. But based on the limited stonework you have, I would consider removing the prefab completely and putting in an EPA fireplace. Cultured stone is relatively cheap, so even if you had to remove it all and redo, it wouldn't add a whole lot of $ to the project. It is just a thought. This at least gives you an option of picking the heater you want.

One other thing no one else has mentioned. Won't Enigma need new pipe as well? I assume the prefab currently uses pipe rated for 1700 degrees. Don't most inserts require class A 2100 degree pipe?

I forgot to mention, nice looking house!

Thanks for the ideas and compliment. I must admit it would look nicer if I could stop shivering long enough to appreciate it.

 

[begreen]

Yes, regardless of stove, a full liner will need to be installed in the existing flue.

Here's a link to the Hearthstone. See what you think:
(broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood-stoves/stove-details?product_id=19#stove_information)

 

[kd460]

If your limited by what your dealer sells, you could always buy the insert that fits your fireplace and hire an independant to do the install.

Yes, a liner is needed. The liner is dropped down the 1700 degree rated pipe that was installed when the original ZC fireplace was installed. The liner is what gives the 2100 degree rating. KD

 

[velvetfoot]

Not sure if this is the case at all here, but in my case with a pre-fab Heatilator about 5 years old, I believe the pipe could have been reused with a Quad 7100.