Help on options for new home

[enigma]

If you can get 19.5" clear height, the Country Striker 160 might be installable. It is approved for Superior ZC fireplaces.

Otherwise, your idea of extending the hearth and putting a hearth stove may work. I'd look at the Hearthstone Homestead for starters.

What is the height from the hearth, to the top of the fireplace opening?

Height from the hearth to the top of the fireplace opening is 25 1/4".

The Homestead pictures and specs look nice. Do you have personal experience with it?

Incidentally, the depth of the hearth is 20". Would it be an option to place a stove like this on the existing hearth without modifications/additions?

 

[wellbuilt home]

I would just rip the hole thing out and run a new flu and re stone the front . That way you could get a good heater for the house.

 

[begreen]

If you can get 19.5" clear height, the Country Striker 160 might be installable. It is approved for Superior ZC fireplaces.

Otherwise, your idea of extending the hearth and putting a hearth stove may work. I'd look at the Hearthstone Homestead for starters.

What is the height from the hearth, to the top of the fireplace opening?

Height from the hearth to the top of the fireplace opening is 25 1/4".

The Homestead pictures and specs look nice. Do you have personal experience with it?

Incidentally, the depth of the hearth is 20". Would it be an option to place a stove like this on the existing hearth without modifications/additions?

We have several Homestead owners on the forum, but I have never owned a soapstone, though I would love to. There still needs to be 18" of hearth in front of the stove, but this could be at floor level in your case.

 

[njkev]

As this is your new home (and keeping it for a number of years I assume), I would do a complete tear-out of that unit & pipe, and put in a Heatilator Constitution (my unit!), HeatnGlo Northstar, or Quadrafire 7100FP. There are others that are nice too...but I certainly would not put a small insert in there. You won't be happy with it for such a wide open area as you have.
Kev

 

[pyro68]

This may be a stupid suggestion, as I am a newbie as well. But based on the limited stonework you have, I would consider removing the prefab completely and putting in an EPA fireplace. Cultured stone is relatively cheap, so even if you had to remove it all and redo, it wouldn't add a whole lot of $ to the project. It is just a thought. This at least gives you an option of picking the heater you want.

One other thing no one else has mentioned. Won't Enigma need new pipe as well? I assume the prefab currently uses pipe rated for 1700 degrees. Don't most inserts require class A 2100 degree pipe?

I forgot to mention, nice looking house!

Absolutely correct, I too would recomend (highly) the Kozy Heat Z-42, I have several family members burning this unit and very happy. The superior you have would come out and the Kozy would be installed w/ a class A chim. A woodstove (freestanding) requires a class A chimney (rating) to be connected through a zero clearance (1700* rated chim) You can achieve this by installing a single wall insulated liner but that will req. a min chimney diameter of 10".
You will be very limited on your options with an insert. You gain firebox size, glass viewing area, and in my opinion performance by going w/ a unit like the Z-42. Enerzone also has a unit ( 2.5) Bis makes good units as well.
good luck

 

[enigma]

Thanks everyone.

I guess I have been under the misconception that the word "fireplace" is an inefficient thing whereas an "insert" or "stove" are what someone wants for quality heating. I think, aesthetically, if the entire existing fireplace could be removed (which I assume means just the black areas in the picture and not the stonework/hearth) creating more room and more options, something that sat flush with the stonework like what we have now would be preferred. Love the looks of the Kozy Heat mentioned above. What about the Fireplace Xtrordinair options? Are they well-regarded? I ask because they are offered locally.

And I am understanding this correctly that when you are mentioning to remove the existing fireplace, you mean to remove all the existing metallic rectangular area in the middle of the hearth while not touching the existing stonework? That would essentially leave a much bigger and, I assume, deeper opening for other options to occupy.

 

[njkev]

Thanks everyone.

I guess I have been under the misconception that the word "fireplace" is an inefficient thing whereas an "insert" or "stove" are what someone wants for quality heating. I think, aesthetically, if the entire existing fireplace could be removed (which I assume means just the black areas in the picture and not the stonework/hearth) creating more room and more options, something that sat flush with the stonework like what we have now would be preferred. Love the looks of the Kozy Heat mentioned above. What about the Fireplace Xtrordinair options? Are they well-regarded? I ask because they are offered locally.

And I am understanding this correctly that when you are mentioning to remove the existing fireplace, you mean to remove all the existing metallic rectangular area in the middle of the hearth while not touching the existing stonework? That would essentially leave a much bigger and, I assume, deeper opening for other options to occupy.

I would definitely upgrade your existing fireplace with a hi-efficiency one, you won't be happy with an insert. I've heard that the Fireplace Xtrordinair is a good fireplace. I have to say that their Install Manuals are probably the best I've seen. Very thorough, and include lots of valuable information that apply to ANY fireplace install. Of course, I still love my Heatilator Constitution!
Kev

 

[pyro68]

Ok, venturing into opinion here (strange huh) the FPX 36 Elite is in some ways a "step up" from the Kozy Z-42. It has a larger firebox, more heating capacity, DOES require non combustable materials around it. May want to look online to see what the exterior dimensions are to see if you need to remove some of the stone facing. www.fireplacex.com The blower for the FPX units can be located on the exterior of the home, bringing in heating air as well as combustion air. A great feature for homes with negative pressure. This unit has a larger firebox, and FPX went to a catalytic secondary combustion system instead of the "burn tubes". The Kozy unit is often much closer to the dimensions of the existing box if you decide to tear that out. It is a true zero clearance unit so you don't have to worry about what is behind the stone that you have. You can go to www.kozyheat.com and search for the nearest dealer. The only trouble with buying from someone out of the area and having an independant install is warranty issues, you will be much better with a local dealer, assuming they have good service.

 

[begreen]

The FPX is a good unit from all reports. It's a catalytic stove, so slight more complicated to use. But it is a serious heater and as far as I know not set up for ducting the excess heat. You might also consider an RSF stove if this is a desired feature. Note that the required full tearout and installation is going to be costly.

My earlier recommendation for the Hearthstone is based on 1000 sq ft to be heated. How open is this 1000 sq ft space to the upstairs? Can excess heat easily get upstairs? How many square feet are there upstairs, another 1000 sq ft?

 

[enigma]

The FPX is a good unit from all reports. It's a catalytic stove, so slight more complicated to use. But it is a serious heater and as far as I know not set up for ducting the excess heat. You might also consider an RSF stove if this is a desired feature. Note that a full tearout and installation is going to be costly.
My earlier recommendation for the Hearthstone is based on 1000 sq ft to be heated. How open is this 1000 sq ft space to the upstairs? Can excess heat easily get upstairs? How many square feet are there upstairs, another 1000 sq ft?

The downstairs is fairly open floor plan. The picture I took was taken from the breakfast area which leads into the kitchen. Off to the right in that picture is the master bedroom and the stairs up (upstairs is roughly 1000 square feet) are directly across from that doorway. So the stairs are about 10-15 feet away from the hearth without barriers. The dining room would be just to the right of the stairs...again fairly open.

I had considered that the project would be expensive. Ballpark idea of tearout cost?

 

[the_dude]

My total cost to have my Majestic prefab removed, the area reframed, some stonework removed, the Kozy Heat installed, stonework put back on, old flue removed, new 6" flue installed, and the galvenized chase cap replaced with a stainless one was around $7,500. Expensive, I know. I had cheaper quotes on a BIS Tradition CE and a Magnum ZC, but I went with the Kozy Heat for a couple of reasons. It fit the best, the dealer gave me the most confidence that he could do the job, and the firebox was much larger than the BIS.

The way I looked at it is I pay arount $2K - 2.5K for LP per year. I have unlimited free supply of wood. I should have my install paid for in 3 - 4 years. I haven't turned my furnace on yet this year.

Also, I didn't have room for a freestanding stove.

Finally, about the stonework. It will be nearly impossible to replace your prefab without removing at least some of the stonework. If you can find the exact stone you have, any mason can patch it in. If you can't find the exact stone (I couldn't and my house was less than a year old when I had my firplace installed) it gets more difficult. I had them carefully remove the existing stone and reuse it, because my stonework is floor to ceiling. This was less than ideal because I am left with some stones that are chipped. The other thing I ran into is the mortar color of the patched in area does not match the existing mortar. I am still working on 'painting' the new mortar with colored tile grout (thanks to a suggestion from Fossil here), and it helps, but still doesn't match exactly. Stone is cheap (figure 80-120/box, which typically covers anywhere from 10 - 15 sq. ft). If I were going at your project, I would seriously consider removing all of the stone and replacing it when your new fireplace is complete. If you are at all handy, you could actually do the stonework yourself. It is a little time consuming, but not too terribly difficult. I just had a friend redo all of his stonework, and he is not a mason. It turned out fantastic, and you would never guess a "non-pro" did it.

 

[the_dude]

I just remembered the other reason I went with the Kozy Heat. It has the shortest clearance I found from hearth to combustible mantle, which varies depending on the depth of the mantle. For me, I think it was around 53 or 54", but my mantle is 9 inches deep. You may get by at 47" with the Kozy Heat Z42, but most of the other EPA fireplaces I looked at, your mantle would likely have to be moved up, shielded, or replaced with a non-combustible one.

 

[the_dude]

The Kozy Heat Z42 is 38"H x 42"W x 26"D. That looks pretty close to the size of your existing fireplace. Also, if your mantle is 6 inches or less in depth (which it looks like it is) your mantle should be fine. Greater than 6" deep combustible mantle requires greater than the 47" you have from hearth to mantle. I rember that some of the other units I looked at required 60"+ from hearth to combustible mantle, regardless of mantle depth.

 

[enigma]

The Kozy Heat Z42 is 38"H x 42"W x 26"D. That looks pretty close to the size of your existing fireplace. Also, if your mantle is 6 inches or less in depth (which it looks like it is) your mantle should be fine. Greater than 6" deep combustible mantle requires greater than the 47" you have from hearth to mantle. I rember that some of the other units I looked at required 60"+ from hearth to combustible mantle, regardless of mantle depth.

Thanks. Really is a nice looking unit. I will have to recheck the vertical measurement, but if I have 36" and the Kozy Heat is 38", is that workable? I guess I don't know how exact everything needs to be. If it needs to be exact, hopefully a couple inches could be ground off the stonework and whatever is behind it?

I am not sure of the mantle depth. Is a mantle shield an option if it is greater than 6" as I would be surprised if it is less than that?

And sorry if this was already mentioned, but what are your heating needs (square footage, temp, etc.)? Do you burn overnight?

 

[njkev]

The FPX is a good unit from all reports. It's a catalytic stove, so slight more complicated to use. But it is a serious heater and as far as I know not set up for ducting the excess heat. You might also consider an RSF stove if this is a desired feature. Note that a full tearout and installation is going to be costly.
My earlier recommendation for the Hearthstone is based on 1000 sq ft to be heated. How open is this 1000 sq ft space to the upstairs? Can excess heat easily get upstairs? How many square feet are there upstairs, another 1000 sq ft?

The downstairs is fairly open floor plan. The picture I took was taken from the breakfast area which leads into the kitchen. Off to the right in that picture is the master bedroom and the stairs up (upstairs is roughly 1000 square feet) are directly across from that doorway. So the stairs are about 10-15 feet away from the hearth without barriers. The dining room would be just to the right of the stairs...again fairly open.

I had considered that the project would be expensive. Ballpark idea of tearout cost?

My complete install for my Heatilator Constitution included the unit itself, OAK, all pipes, and chimney cap. The cost paid to the dealer/installer was $4500. That low cost was due to fact that I did the demolition work myself; I removed the 36" width of sheet rock on both house levels from ceiling to floor (so installer can easily install new pipes!), and I then removed the old unit and all of the pipes & chimney cap. Once the dealer gives you a price INCLUDING the demolition, ask him how much he will take off the cost if you do it yourself! Obviously you will spending $$ on the material to fix the walls, to build a new extended hearth, and re-do the surround & mantel on the new fireplace.

BTW.....Do not remove existing fire-stops during tear-out! This will create more work for the installer! The installer will (should) simply "cut" the old existing ones with sheet metal shears, and then simply install new fire-stops over the old ones.
kev

 

[the_dude]

The Kozy Heat Z42 is 38"H x 42"W x 26"D. That looks pretty close to the size of your existing fireplace. Also, if your mantle is 6 inches or less in depth (which it looks like it is) your mantle should be fine. Greater than 6" deep combustible mantle requires greater than the 47" you have from hearth to mantle. I rember that some of the other units I looked at required 60"+ from hearth to combustible mantle, regardless of mantle depth.

Thanks. Really is a nice looking unit. I will have to recheck the vertical measurement, but if I have 36" and the Kozy Heat is 38", is that workable? I guess I don't know how exact everything needs to be. If it needs to be exact, hopefully a couple inches could be ground off the stonework and whatever is behind it?

I am not sure of the mantle depth. Is a mantle shield an option if it is greater than 6" as I would be surprised if it is less than that?

And sorry if this was already mentioned, but what are your heating needs (square footage, temp, etc.)? Do you burn overnight?

The 38" should be workable, as my prefab was the exact dimensions as yours. The will have to remove some of the stone and do some reframing. I don't think you are going to get around that part no matter what if you go the EPA fireplace route.

I am heating about 1700 sq ft, but that is a bit deceiving, since it is really about 1000 with a 700 sq ft loft. Very open and I have several ceiling fans, so it has been quite easy distributing the heat. It has not been terribly cold yet, so I am still using my shoulder season wood. Mostly cottonwood and basswood. I have done some overnight burns. The fireplace is still quite warm after 8-9 hours. Warm enough that the fan is still running. I have not had enough coals to restart the fire in the morning, but once I switch to the oak, maple, and elm I have, I am confident I will. Last week, I loaded up the fireplace at 9 p.m. The following evening at 5 p.m. I went to shovel out the ashes to fire it back up. There were still some red coals in there. 20 hours and red coals, I couldn't believe it.

So far with outside temps in the upper 30's - low 40's overnight, I can bring my 1700 sq ft from low 60's to low 70's in about an hour. I can maintain 70's heat overnight with a moderate load of the cottonwood/basswood. So far, so good. I love the heater, and it looks great. I have a thread over in the Perfect Picture thread if you do a search on Kozy Heat you should be able to find it. It will give you a good idea of what I went through.

 

[enigma]

The closest Kozy Heat dealer looked at the specs of the hearth and felt that the z42 might be a good option. I'll be visiting their showroom to get some more information, but they ballparked $5-6k for tearout and install.

 

[enigma]

Update...

Just got back from the dealer. They agree with many of you in that there would be a ton of work required to convert the existing fireplace into something usable that would accept an EPA fireplace. Their thought was that they would have to open up the wall above the fireplace to remove piping if there wasn't enough access once the current fireplace was removed. They said it was possible, but likely not the easiest route.

The new idea they brought up was decommisioning the current fireplace with some insulation, removing the current hearth and mantle, and then build a new wall/boxed area that extended at least the minimum required depth to house the Kozy z42 in front of the existing space effectively hiding the old fireplace. The new piping would then run up the inside of that wall and then through the ceiling. This would require no wall destruction...just construction. This would ultimately make the fireplace a bit more of a focal point in the room as it is pretty flush with the wall at this point.

Any thoughts on that idea/plan? I am just not sure what the wall building part of the process would cost. Hopefully, less than or equal to what it would cost to do a total tearout of the old fireplace?

 

[begreen]

It's going to be just as much work and mess to build new as it would be to remove drywall and pipe. The tearout shouldn't take more than a half-day for a competent installer and a helper. Or you could do the removal yourselves. This is not high tech work. If you want a greater visual statement for a new installation, maybe carry the stonework to the ceiling?

 

[enigma]

It's going to be just as much work and mess to build new as it would be to remove drywall and pipe. The tearout shouldn't take more than a half-day for a competent installer and a helper. Or you could do the removal yourselves. This is not high tech work. If you want a greater visual statement for a new installation, maybe carry the stonework to the ceiling?

I think their concern might have been that I couldn't confirm that there would be enough space within the wall for someone to work and get to the pipe in the existing chimney to remove it? Maybe I don't understand the tearout process completely. Does everything in my picture get removed (stonework/mantle/hearth/fireplace) exposing a hole big enough for someone to remove the pipes?

They were almost giving me the impression that the current chimney cannot be used and a new one would be run within that new wall to the ceiling.

 

[begreen]

If the entire sheetrock wall in front of the the pipe is removed, access will be great and piping replacement should be relatively easy. That doesn't mean demolishing the entire wall, just probably about a 32"-48" section to the ceiling. It does mean removing all the stone work as well. They are correct that it's likely that the new stove will require new flue pipe that is specced for the new fireplace. That's why I said this will be costly as compared to putting in a hearth stove. A hearth stove installed may be around $5000. A completely new fireplace will likely be more than double the cost. That doesn't include stonework.

 

[wellbuilt home]

Enigna The ripe out and reinstall is not a big deal . We do lots of them . It not like working on some ones brain. 1st step is to cover the room with tarps . 2, whack off the stone with a hammer ( sledge hammer) . when the stone gets louse you throw it in a wheel barrel . 3, roll the stone out the front door .4,ripe the sheet rock off the wall from the floor to the ceiling ( throw it out the front door) 5 ,The fire place has 4 nails on the face of the wall ( pull them out). 6, Cut the flue with a sawzall and pull the fire box out . (The pipe should hang there ) It looks like you have around 16' of flue hanging you could just pull them out the roof , It not very heavy. My stove store charges me 600 bucks to run the new pipe and install the stove with new roof cap . We do all the clean up . We replace the sheet rock stone the wall tile the floor fix the trim work . This job costs around 4700 plus the stove and tile permits . and takes a few days . hope this helps. John wellbuilt homes

 

[enigma]

Who would be the ideal professional to contact regarding existing fireplace tearout and then rebuilding around a ZC high-efficiency fireplace? A general contractor? Just wondering if there is a certain specialty or designation that I should be searching for? Thanks.

 

[the_dude]

I just caught up on this thread.

First off, if you were going to close up the existing hole and start fresh, I would absolutely go with a freestanding stove. If you are going to have something jutting out into the room, why not go with the beauty of a stove. Eliminates the need for building new walls. The whole point of a fireplace is to save space, not rebuild a box into the room for one.

Second, it should not be terribly difficult for them to do this tear out. I would request them to come out, take a look, and write up a detailed quote. I had three companies come out and quote my job. For mine, they only had to remove a small bit of the stone to put in the new fireplace. The old pipe was removed and new installed without any removal of walls. How big is your chase?

As far as who to contact for the work, most fireplace shops should be able to accomodate this job soup to nuts. All of the places I visited (4 in total) were quite familiar with tearing out a prefab and replacing it with an EPA. Many general contractors sub this type of work out to a firplace professional anyway. That was the case when my home was built. The homebuilder had a fireplace dealer do the install of the prefab.

You may have the option of bringing in a mason to do the stonework, as some fireplace dealers sub out that work.

Good luck.

 

[enigma]

I just caught up on this thread.

First off, if you were going to close up the existing hole and start fresh, I would absolutely go with a freestanding stove. If you are going to have something jutting out into the room, why not go with the beauty of a stove. Eliminates the need for building new walls. The whole point of a fireplace is to save space, not rebuild a box into the room for one.

Second, it should not be terribly difficult for them to do this tear out. I would request them to come out, take a look, and write up a detailed quote. I had three companies come out and quote my job. For mine, they only had to remove a small bit of the stone to put in the new fireplace. The old pipe was removed and new installed without any removal of walls. How big is your chase?

As far as who to contact for the work, most fireplace shops should be able to accomodate this job soup to nuts. All of the places I visited (4 in total) were quite familiar with tearing out a prefab and replacing it with an EPA. Many general contractors sub this type of work out to a firplace professional anyway. That was the case when my home was built. The homebuilder had a fireplace dealer do the install of the prefab.

You may have the option of bringing in a mason to do the stonework, as some fireplace dealers sub out that work.

Good luck.

In the interest of preserving space, I don't think we will close off the existing fireplace and build something in front. I think we will be going to route of tear out. I know this will be the expensive route to go, but I really want things done right. And by right, I just mean the best functionally without sacrificing aesthetics and space. That is why I am leaning toward high-efficiency fireplaces.

The reason I asked about who to contact is that I was told by two places they wouldn't do the tearout. I just got a message from another who said he could take care of everything without a contractor (agreeing with your comment about most shops accomodating soup to nuts...must be an industry phrase as that was his exact terminology). He is going to be out in the not too distant future to take a look at everything and give me his thoughts. He deals with Travis products so we'll likely be talking FPX 36. I did like the look of the Kozy z42, though.

So that is where things stand at the present. I'll definitely post pics if/when the process procedes. Thanks for your help and insight.