Help! Pacific Energy NEO 2.5 insert smoke problem

[RustyBoy]

Hi everyone, New poster and new fireplace insert owner here, really hoping someone can help me fix my problem!

I had a Pacific Energy NEO 2.5 installed this past autumn and since day one we have had problems with smoke escaping when the fire door is opened. It isn’t a lot of smoke, maybe 10% of whats going up the chimney, but it is making my house smelly and my life miserable. When the insert door is open to load fresh wood some smoke kind of rolls lazily out of the front. Its like there isn’t strong enough draft to suck that little bit of extra smoke up past the baffle and instead it rolls out under the top of the door frame.


I know it sounds like there isn't enough draft (and there probably isn’t) but I’ve been reading on here about other people having problems with their PE baffles and the bracket it sits on. It got me wondering if it’s an insert issue. I started investigating and my my glass is really black on the left and relatively clean on the right as others have complained about. I also noticed that my baffle doesn’t sit totally flush on its bracket. At the back right corner the baffle rises (or the bracket lowers) and there is about a 1/16” gap between bracket and baffle. Some smoke might be escaping through that gap straight up the flue bypassing the baffles but I didn’t think that would lower my draft, would it? Is there anyway that smoke could get mixed up with the clean air wash air and flow down in front of the glass?


If it isn’t the insert than I guess the problem is with the draft but I’m not sure what would be the best way to increase it. Or where the weakest link is in our setup.


We have a large 2 story house and the insert is in the second floor. The flue is 5 1/2” diameter, it’s the flexible tube type stuff and is uninsulated. The flue is in a brick chimney that runs up the outside of our house. From the top of the fire box to the top of the flue is aprox 16 feet. It was shorter but we had the installer add about 3 feet of double wall insulated on top to increase its height and hopefully improve the draft.


The PE manual recommends 15’ minimum chimney height so we are just barely reaching the minimum. Adding more height isn’t realistic as it already looks goofy sticking so far above the top of the brick chimney. I wonder if insulating it would significantly increase the effectiveness of the height we do have? We live on Vancouver Island and the temperature outside rarely reaches freezing.


The PE manual also recommends 5 1/2” or 6” diameter flue lining. Our installer said that the smaller diameter should increase “velocity” but another shop’s opinion was that bigger diameter is better for draft because it allows more exhaust to escape.


We don’t currently have a dedicated outside air intake. Our house is big and not very air-tight and I don’t feel like the fire is starved for air. There is an exterior ash-cleanout for the brick fireplace about 8 feet lower than where the fireplace is installed. The installer recommended that we leave the cleanout hole uncovered to allow fresh air into the fireplace chamber.


I’ve been reading about having a dead-air area inside the chimney that warms up to insulate the flue, I guess with the ash cleanout open the air in our chimney never really gets very warm.



OK I’m rambling when i’d really rather be reading your ideas of what I can do to fix this persistent problem.



Thanks for your help!

 

[pen]

How often are you loading the stove?

Are you using it 24/7 for heat? Or for ambiance?

If there are flames in the firebox, you are opening the door at the wrong time. If the first load put into the stove was of the appropriate size (and the insert is sized properly for what you are trying to heat) you shouldn't need to open that door again until it's it's been hours of nothing but coals in the stove.

Welcome to the site, and hope you find what you are looking for here.

pen

 

[RustyBoy]

Hi I'm opening it fairly often. Usually after its been lit for an hour or so I'll open it with active flames to top it up with larger pieces. Depending on how i've timed things sometimes I'll open it with flames to fill it up before bed. Usually I'm opening it as part of an experiment to see if (window open, clean-out cover closed, ceiling fan reversed, bedroom doors closed, some other experiment) will solve the problem.

I may be opening it too often, but I was under the impression that you should be able to open the door at any point and not get a bunch of smoke into your house.

 

[pen]

I may be opening it too often, but I was under the impression that you should be able to open the door at any point and not get a bunch of smoke into your house.

The smoke has a difficult path to travel through before exiting a modern stove. That's a good deal of the reason why they are so effective, is that the smoke is given the opportunity to burn by design. With that, if the door is open when the fire is at any point other than the coaling stage, smoke spillage can happen. This can be aggravated by bathroom fans, kitchen hoods, clothes dryers running, all of which shove air towards the outside of the home, dropping the pressure inside and making smoke spillage even more likely if the door is opened.

In general, I'd suggest playing around with your fire building / loading strategies so you can keep that door closed during the active part of the burn, to help solve the smoke smell.

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Does the connector pipe come up, to a 90, then into a chimney thimble that connects to the liner, then up the chimney with the 5.5" liner? If yes, how high does it go up from the stove before the 90? Can you post a picture of the stove and chimney connection?

We live in a mild climate. It's been in the 50's and 60s lately. Most stoves are going to spill some smoke at these outdoor temps with a less than ideal flue. The 5.5" liner is not helping. How was the smoke issue when outdoor temps were around freezing, 0 - 5?

From the manual:
BOTH CHIMNEY SYSTEM AND CONNECTOR MUST BE 6"(150mm) DIAMETER

 

[Grisu]

How dry is wood? Did you test it with a moisture meter by splitting some pieces in half and pressing the pins in the center of the fresh surface? It should read 20% or below.

Are you opening the primary air for some time before opening the door? Have you checked that the baffle sits correctly on the air channel in the back? You can check if your home is too airtight by simply cracking a windows close to the stove before opening the door. If that reduces the smoke spillage you may need to supply more air.

You would probably benefit a lot from insulating the liner.

Btw. Did your installer also add a block-off plate? https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ That won't help with the smoke but greatly improve the heating ability of the insert.

 

[Seanm]

The guys above are all very knowledgeable and will help you get this sorted out. I just wanted to back up what pen had to say about loading to early. Put the right amount of dry wood in there and then leave it alone. If you have flames going and you open that door then you will get spillage. My wife can always tell when Ive opened the door to early and she lets me know she smells it. If you feel you must open the door prematurely make sure you open your air wide, open the stove door very slowly until you see the flames go away from the door and have a window open nearby (this will help but wont get rid of the spillage). The other option aside from loading the correct amount of wood in the first place would be to open the air to speed up the process to the coaling stage. No need to load the stove again until you are down to coals unless you have messed up your timing with bed time, work etc.

 

[RustyBoy]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses everyone! I'll try to answer your questions;

I have been making sure that all hood fans, dryers, exhaust fans etc are off when reloading. I also turn off the overhead ceiling fan before opening the door. Problem persists.

The flue is a very straight shot. It is an insert that sits back into the fireplace opening, I wasn't home when they installed it but I think the flue collar and the chimney are generally in a straight line. The flexi flue liner may bend slightly to get around the old damper / smoke shelf whatever is in there but its more or less straight up.

I can post a picture of the setup tomorrow when I get home.

The problem is worse sometimes than others but I hadn't considered looking at the outside air temperature. Mind you, all winter there was never a period of even a few days where the problem vanished and we did have a couple relatively cold weeks.

I could have sworn that my manual says the flue liner can be 5 1/2" or 6". Are you looking at the insert manual or the stove manual? I have an insert. At the time of install the installer never asked me what diameter i wanted and because i didn't anticipate having a problem i never thought to ask. Would a 6" provide better draft?

I think my wood is ok, its mostly douglas fir, My moisture meter is usually between 17-20 but i haven't tested it on fresh wood right after splitting. I usually just test the outer surface of whatever is going in the fireplace. My fires aren't excessively smokey, when you look from the outside you don't see any smoke coming from the top of the chimney. I sometimes burn a little off-cut dimernsional lumber (so very dry) and still get the problem.

I do open the primary air for a minute before opening the door. I have tried opening an outside window with no effect, and the baffle sits correctly on the supply tube.

i don't know if the installer made a block-off plate but I doubt it because it has never been mentioned.

Thanks everyone for your input!

A follow up question, If you had to choose between upgrading to a 6" diameter flue OR insulating the existing 5 1/2" flue, which would likely cause the greatest increase in draft? Thanks

 

[Grisu]

My moisture meter is usually between 17-20 but i haven't tested it on fresh wood right after splitting. I usually just test the outer surface of whatever is going in the fireplace.

When your wood shows 17 to 20 on the outside it is probably still wet on the inside. The less than 20% the manual calls for are for internal moisture. Thus, you take the dried wood and split it in half as I described above. How long has it been split and stacked with lots of sun and wind exposure? Was it top-covered?

Did you check that your flue is clean? We also had quite a few members with clogged screens in the cap. You could maybe try with some binoculars to see how your cap looks.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the clarification. You are correct, the insert manual does say 5.5 or 6" liner. I added insert to the title to avoid further confusion. Is a 6" insulated liner out of the question due to the chimney flue inside dimensions?

 

[RustyBoy]

Hi Begreen,

No I think that I can fit an insulated 6" liner in the chimney and after this winters fiasco I probably will go that route. I was just curious which would have the bigger positive effect, increasing diameter or insulating. If for instance the consensus here was that a 5 1/2" liner should be plenty of capacity but that an uninsulated liner was a big no-no one then possibly I would just add the insulation and leave the liner size alone so I'm only fixing what is broken.

Hi Grisu,

Your right the wood probably is too wet, I will split and check the inside of a typical piece soon. I bought 3 cords in September from a co-worker who sells firewood on the side. He swore it was seasoned and dry but didn't really elaborate on where it came from or how long it had been seasoned. I bought it in September and stacked it into my wood shed which is covered but has open sides and a slatted floor for air circulation. I started burning it in October so it wasn't in my possession long before I started burning.

My flue is clean, the installer has twice cleaned it this winter trying to alleviate the problem. Each time it had no effect on the smoke back-puffing. There isn't actually a screen around the rain cap, so that isn't the problem.

 

[begreen]

I would do everything I could to improve draft. To me that would mean going with a 6" insulated liner and possibly an extension to increase the height of the chimney. But that is me, I don't like smoke spillage and smell in the house.

 

[pen]

A follow up question, If you had to choose between upgrading to a 6" diameter flue OR insulating the existing 5 1/2" flue, which would likely cause the greatest increase in draft? Thanks

To me, before even considering replacing what you have. I would want to make certain that your wood is truly well seasoned and that you are building fires correctly / operating the insert properly.

Feel free to start a new thread and show some pics of how you build a fire, how / when you operate the air control and what things look like at different parts of the burn, and then maybe people can give you some pointers there that can help. Also, split a few pieces of the wood you are working with in 1/2 and take a moisture reading on a fresh face to get that out of the way. Additionally, you might want to call around and see if any stove shops or farm centers still have any of the compressed firewood blocks around (man made compressed stove fuel, that goes by a variety of names, bio-bricks, eco-logs, envi-blocks, or similar as I get the names confused) and maybe pick some of those up and give a go to really be able to eliminate the moisture issue (if you find a brand available and aren't sure about it just ask)

I for one would absolutely hate to see you spend more money on what should be a good setup now to possibly get the exact same results, if some changes to your wood or operating habits could fix the problem.

Good luck,

pen

 

[hilly]

Hi Rusty,
If you come up island and want to try some dry wood in your stove you can come by my place and pick up a few pieces. I live a few minutes north of Mill Bay.