Help with soot/creosote

[Crowkiller]

After researching a replacement stove for my ol Ashley circulater, I settled on an Englander nc-30. I installed it a year ago as well as installing 6” double wall rigid SS chimney inside my 8x8 unlined brick chimney.
I have about 14 1/2’ of chimney, from the top of my stove to top of chimney. Two 90 degree turns in chimney pipe.
My problem is creosote buildup. After about 3 weeks, stove glass will start clouding up, smoke will come out when door is opened etc...
at that point I have to clean the liner. The screen at the top of the chimney will almost be closed up and I’ll have a massive amount of creosote. I contacted Englander and talked to Mike and we went through some possibilities… Nothing concrete though. Oh I burn seasoned wood over a year old. I’ve checked it multiple times this winter on a fresh split always 15 to 17% or so. Mostly burning cherry, poplar, and a little Birch. Any help with this creosote buildup problem would be appreciated. Ps. Never had creosote problem with my old Ashley

 

[bholler]

After researching a replacement stove for my ol Ashley circulater, I settled on an Englander nc-30. I installed it a year ago as well as installing 6” double wall rigid SS chimney inside my 8x8 unlined brick chimney.
I have about 14 1/2’ of chimney, from the top of my stove to top of chimney. Two 90 degree turns in chimney pipe.
My problem is creosote buildup. After about 3 weeks, stove glass will start clouding up, smoke will come out when door is opened etc...
at that point I have to clean the liner. The screen at the top of the chimney will almost be closed up and I’ll have a massive amount of creosote. I contacted Englander and talked to Mike and we went through some possibilities… Nothing concrete though. Oh I burn seasoned wood over a year old. I’ve checked it multiple times this winter on a fresh split always 15 to 17% or so. Mostly burning cherry, poplar, and a little Birch. Any help with this creosote buildup problem would be appreciated. Ps. Never had creosote problem with my old Ashley

Go through your whole setup from clean out to chimney top for us. And can you tell us what your burn procedure is?

 

[wagne223]

After researching a replacement stove for my ol Ashley circulater, I settled on an Englander nc-30. I installed it a year ago as well as installing 6” double wall rigid SS chimney inside my 8x8 unlined brick chimney.
I have about 14 1/2’ of chimney, from the top of my stove to top of chimney. Two 90 degree turns in chimney pipe.
My problem is creosote buildup. After about 3 weeks, stove glass will start clouding up, smoke will come out when door is opened etc...
at that point I have to clean the liner. The screen at the top of the chimney will almost be closed up and I’ll have a massive amount of creosote. I contacted Englander and talked to Mike and we went through some possibilities… Nothing concrete though. Oh I burn seasoned wood over a year old. I’ve checked it multiple times this winter on a fresh split always 15 to 17% or so. Mostly burning cherry, poplar, and a little Birch. Any help with this creosote buildup problem would be appreciated. Ps. Never had creosote problem with my old Ashley

Did you tell Mike your Chimney set up?
Did he say it was acceptable?
I could be wrong....but I thought Englander required 15' straight. Then add for any 90s.
Bholler asked, I'm also interested in your whole setup and burn process.

 

[Crowkiller]

Yes I told him. He said it was close. I believe englander requires 15’ from bottom of stove to chimney top. But it’s been a year since I spoke to them about setup, so don’t quote me on that. I’ll reply later when I can get home and measure everything. Thanks

 

[logfarmer]

Yep, that’s why I no longer own the 30 anymore. Creosoted my chimney real bad and I have 18+ foot of chimney and was burning 14-17% wood moisture and the stove ran hot. Wish you luck, similar chimney setup as yours just a bit taller.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Yep, that’s why I no longer own the 30 anymore. Creosoted my chimney real bad and I have 18+ foot of chimney and was burning 14-17% wood moisture and the stove ran hot. Wish you luck, similar chimney setup as yours just a bit taller.

Thats interesting. Iv been running 2 30s for 10yrs. Put quite few miles on em and never had a creosote problem. As soon as they are up to temp ,no visible smoke. Both cruise at about 600 stovetop temp.

 

[Crowkiller]

Log farmer what stove did you switch too? I suspect I need more pipe, but I won’t be able to reach it to clean it out etc... At this point I’d be more apt to change heaters vs applying more brick and adding more stove pipe.

 

[jetsam]

The usual suspects are secondary combustion problems, wet wood, uninsulated flues, and operator error. "Bad stove design" is not an option- you have a widely used and liked stove.

The old Ashley was probably installed as a slammer, so you never noticed your creosote problem.

Don't be that guy who blames the stove for a venting or fuel problem... they always leave here mad, then come back with a thread about how their newer, more expensive stove has the same or worse problems.

That said though, check your baffle boards- if you are not getting secondaries, that would definitely not be helping you out.

Start us off by describing the entire venting system (with photos if possible), and exactly how you operate the stove. Also confirm that you are getting secondaries when you cut the air back.

 

[bholler]

The usual suspects are secondary combustion problems, wet wood, uninsulated flues, and operator error. "Bad stove design" is not an option- you have a widely used and liked stove.

The old Ashley was probably installed as a slammer, so you never noticed your creosote problem.

Don't be that guy who blames the stove for a venting or fuel problem... they always leave here mad, then come back with a thread about how their newer, more expensive stove has the same or worse problems.

That said though, check your baffle boards- if you are not getting secondaries, that would definitely not be helping you out.

Start us off by describing the entire venting system (with photos if possible), and exactly how you operate the stove. Also confirm that you are getting secondaries when you cut the air back.

It is going into an 8x8 chimney very unlikely that is for a fireplace so it couldn't be a slammer. I agree I don't think it is the stove but just getting thing straight

 

[bholler]

Log farmer what stove did you switch too? I suspect I need more pipe, but I won’t be able to reach it to clean it out etc... At this point I’d be more apt to change heaters vs applying more brick and adding more stove pipe.

Is there a clean out? If so does the liner run down to it and is that all sealed up well?

 

[Crowkiller]

Ok First I’ll go over my operating procedure. Starting with the wood, it’s dry. I’ve been measuring the moisture content of firewood for a decade now. Using a fresh split it’ll typically be around 15 to 17%. I’ll put a couple of forearm size splits on each side of the dog box running north and south leaving a trough down the middle. Towards the front of the trough I’ll wad up a bit of newspaper with a small cube of Cedar chips melted in wax. On top of this some kindling, progressively larger maybe a few pieces of kindling running east and west then more north and south and then fill out the rest of the stove with progressively larger splits. Light a match and crack the door a couple of inches, and pull the air control lever out. After everything’s charred up nicely, save five or so minutes I’ll shut the door, leaving air control pulled out Until stove top thermometer reads 4 to 450 at which point I’ll push Air control halfway In. After a few more minutes I’ll push the lever in until it’s flush with the ash pan. Secondaries will appear to be burning somewhat at this point. Although After speaking with Mike I suspect they’re not burning as strong as they should be. This procedure is of course after I have a clean liner. I can however get the stove to burn hot, even over fire it if I don’t push the lever in.
***************************************
set up: From the top of my stove to the center of the horizontal pipe going through the wall is 40 inches. The horizontal pipe is a dura-Vent insulated wall pass-through this slides into my vertical liner. The horizontal length is 24 inches. All of this now attaches into my Dura-Vent Dura liner double walled stainless steel rigid insulated liner. It has a clean out of 8 inches to maybe a foot and then 11 1/2 feet to the top of the chimney. From the top of the stove to the top of the chimney is 14.83 feet, with two 90 degree turns.
Mike said it sounds like my set up should be working and the only thing he could figure out is there’s somehow an air leak or maybe not enough chimney height. I think I am going to clean out my chimney again and install a section of black pipe and see if that helps, Mike suggested this as well.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated as well thanks a lot.

 

[bholler]

Ok First I’ll go over my operating procedure. Starting with the wood, it’s dry. I’ve been measuring the moisture content of firewood for a decade now. Using a fresh split it’ll typically be around 15 to 17%. I’ll put a couple of forearm size splits on each side of the dog box running north and south leaving a trough down the middle. Towards the front of the trough I’ll wad up a bit of newspaper with a small cube of Cedar chips melted in wax. On top of this some kindling, progressively larger maybe a few pieces of kindling running east and west then more north and south and then fill out the rest of the stove with progressively larger splits. Light a match and crack the door a couple of inches, and pull the air control lever out. After everything’s charred up nicely, save five or so minutes I’ll shut the door, leaving air control pulled out Until stove top thermometer reads 4 to 450 at which point I’ll push Air control halfway In. After a few more minutes I’ll push the lever in until it’s flush with the ash pan. Secondaries will appear to be burning somewhat at this point. Although After speaking with Mike I suspect they’re not burning as strong as they should be. This procedure is of course after I have a clean liner. I can however get the stove to burn hot, even over fire it if I don’t push the lever in.
***************************************
set up: From the top of my stove to the center of the horizontal pipe going through the wall is 40 inches. The horizontal pipe is a dura-Vent insulated wall pass-through this slides into my vertical liner. The horizontal length is 24 inches. All of this now attaches into my Dura-Vent Dura liner double walled stainless steel rigid insulated liner. It has a clean out of 8 inches to maybe a foot and then 11 1/2 feet to the top of the chimney. From the top of the stove to the top of the chimney is 14.83 feet, with two 90 degree turns.
Mike said it sounds like my set up should be working and the only thing he could figure out is there’s somehow an air leak or maybe not enough chimney height. I think I am going to clean out my chimney again and install a section of black pipe and see if that helps, Mike suggested this as well.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated as well thanks a lot.

Is the bottom of the liner sealed? I agree the chimney is on the short side so extending may help. I would also suggest a pipe thermometer instead of or in addition to the stove top one. It gives you a faster reaction and better idea of what is going into the chimney

 

[moresnow]

I’ve been measuring the moisture content of firewood for a decade now. Using a fresh split it’ll typically be around 15 to 17%.

Not trying to offend, or stir the soup, can you explain in detail your moisture testing procedure?

Does your horizontal pipe length have any rise as it heads towards the chimney?

Changing the first 90 out for 2X45's may be of some help. 90's suck. Adding pipe as you mentioned should be worth a try.

Does your cap design include ember protection screen?

 

[Crowkiller]

Sorry for the mess the stove room is getting a facelift.

 

[Crowkiller]

Yes the liner has a sealed clean out. I get to it by removing the wall pass through and vacuuming junk out through the thimble that I cut through the brick chimney.

also, I always make sure my fiber boards are pushed together and pushed to the rear of the stove.
How I check moisture content: Splitwood and push my Lowe’s moisture meter prongs into the wood a fair bit. I pretty much just cut dead standing or at least deadwood. Most of it is in the 20% range when I cut it. I then split it and stack it for the following year unless it’s really wet then I’ll put it in a separate stack.
Thanks

 

[Crowkiller]

Oh, sorry, chimney cap does have screen which is maybe 1/2”. Horizontal pipe is level (Old Ashley actually went a bit downhill to get through the thimble, but it went through the back of the stove so it only had one 90 bend).

I researched the 45 stove pipes When I installed it a year ago but was actually talked out of it, can’t remember who, somebody in the business..

 

[logfarmer]

Thats interesting. Iv been running 2 30s for 10yrs. Put quite few miles on em and never had a creosote problem. As soon as they are up to temp ,no visible smoke. Both cruise at about 600 stovetop temp.

Wasn’t saying it was a bad stove, it’s well built it just didn’t do well with my setup! Stove top temp always ran above 650.

 

[logfarmer]

Log farmer what stove did you switch too? I suspect I need more pipe, but I won’t be able to reach it to clean it out etc... At this point I’d be more apt to change heaters vs applying more brick and adding more stove pipe.

I bought a 1991 englander 24acd I believe? It’s a cat stove, runs very well and my chimney is clean too!

 

[bholler]

Oh, sorry, chimney cap does have screen which is maybe 1/2”. Horizontal pipe is level (Old Ashley actually went a bit downhill to get through the thimble, but it went through the back of the stove so it only had one 90 bend).

I researched the 45 stove pipes When I installed it a year ago but was actually talked out of it, can’t remember who, somebody in the business..

Is the bottom of your liner sealed up? And who ever talked you out of 45s didn't know what they were talking about

 

[Crowkiller]

Thanks Log Farmer. I didn’t think you were saying the stove was bad at all, nor was I. I did enough research to know this is a good stove but if I can’t figure it out I want to know what my options are.

 

[logfarmer]

I am also not running a liner at all in my masonry flue, which is on a outside wall, the 30 probably really needed it but in all the stoves I’ve owned, my chimney has always stayed clean even with wetter wood. So englander does have well built stoves, I have one again, just not the 30!

 

[Crowkiller]

Thanks bholler, good to know about the 45s. And the bottom of the clean out is sealed. The clean out drops down maybe eight or 10 inches and it is sealed.

 

[logfarmer]

Thanks Log Farmer. I didn’t think you were saying the stove was bad at all, nor was I. I did enough research to know this is a good stove but if I can’t figure it out I want to know what my options are.

You’re welcome, others take things out of proportion. It is a good stove and if I had a garage to put it in, I would’ve tried it there before selling it. The beast I have now is great, but I personally like cat stoves over tube stoves and I got lucky finding this one in mint condition.

 

[Crowkiller]

Yes I have a couple of other locations I can try out this stove if it doesn’t work here. However I haven’t given up yet.

 

[bholler]

Thanks bholler, good to know about the 45s. And the bottom of the clean out is sealed. The clean out drops down maybe eight or 10 inches and it is sealed.

How? Does the liner run down to it? If so is it sealed to the door?