Here come the EVs

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semipro

Minister of Fire
Jan 12, 2009
4,009
SW Virginia
I'm starting to suspect that grid capacity will thwart/delay EV adoption, especially that of larger vehicles with higher capacity batteries. The amount of energy conveyed in liquid fuels to vehicles is immense and replacing that with flowing electrons will be a real challenge.
Don't get me wrong, I drive an EV and strongly support their adoption. I just think we've got some work to do to support what auto manufacturers are planning.
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
727
SE North Carolina
I'm starting to suspect that grid capacity will thwart/delay EV adoption,
I found this a reasonably thoughtful assessment......Evan
 

clancey

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2021
708
Colorado
I saw a picture the other day of hundreds of electric cars in a parking lot left there that they picked up because of battery trouble and not enough of power for the recharging stations----just abandoned---looked like a junk yard in the picture and looked just like when they abandon those bikes all over and they come and get them with trucks..Do not know which country this picture was taken in but it sure gave me a very uneasy feeling and our country "really" has a "trash problem" and the "seas" are polluted--terrible.. With the cost of these electric cars they will only be for the better off people and the less rich people will most likely have to drive somewhere with a bunch of other people. They will start at about 50.000 now who among us could afford that plus the up keep of your home...I am not looking forward to the future and I am a pessimist and at this time in my life feeling pessimistic as well--aches and pains--lol clancey
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
24,178
central pa
I saw a picture the other day of hundreds of electric cars in a parking lot left there that they picked up because of battery trouble and not enough of power for the recharging stations----just abandoned---looked like a junk yard in the picture and looked just like when they abandon those bikes all over and they come and get them with trucks..Do not know which country this picture was taken in but it sure gave me a very uneasy feeling and our country "really" has a "trash problem" and the "seas" are polluted--terrible.. With the cost of these electric cars they will only be for the better off people and the less rich people will most likely have to drive somewhere with a bunch of other people. They will start at about 50.000 now who among us could afford that plus the up keep of your home...I am not looking forward to the future and I am a pessimist and at this time in my life feeling pessimistic as well--aches and pains--lol clancey
Can you link to that picture? Is there any background on it? I can go take pictures of multiple lots full of ice vehicles broken down. They are called salvage yards and I see no reason there wouldn't be ones that specialize in ev or hybrids.

And yes currently we are in the early stages of ev production so the prices are a bit higher than ice vehicles. But if you compare them to vehicles with similar performance and options they really don't cost more and the fuel and maintenance costs are lower. I just don't understand the strong resistance to EVs from some. No they are not the right solution for everyone yet by any means. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them or with developing more.

But yes without question we will need some infrastructure upgrades
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
I did some basic napkin math the other day, if every car in Alberta (about 4 million of them) was an EV with efficiency of a Model Y, and everyone of those drove 50km everyday, and everyone of them charged at the same time over an 8hr period at night, that would place an additional demand on the Alberta power grid of 4000MW for those 8hrs. The current night time power consumption in Alberta is about 8000-9000MW and 9000-11000MW during the day time.

So with the power grid we already have we are most of the way to absorbing this additional energy demand. Sure extra transmission lines would need to be built along with new generation stations, but this isn't an insurmountable task by any means. For us the biggest issue would be residential power distribution on the utility side, almost every home here comes standard with a 100 amp 120/240 volt split phase service, but many utilities have not sized their end to handle all of these being pushed to the max at once, it is quite possible transformers and even feeder cables would need to be upgraded in many neighborhoods. Of course all this assuming the EV's are charged at home.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
24,178
central pa
I did some basic napkin math the other day, if every car in Alberta (about 4 million of them) was an EV with efficiency of a Model Y, and everyone of those drove 50km everyday, and everyone of them charged at the same time over an 8hr period at night, that would place an additional demand on the Alberta power grid of 4000MW for those 8hrs. The current night time power consumption in Alberta is about 8000-9000MW and 9000-11000MW during the day time.

So with the power grid we already have we are most of the way to absorbing this additional energy demand. Sure extra transmission lines would need to be built along with new generation stations, but this isn't an insurmountable task by any means. For us the biggest issue would be residential power distribution on the utility side, almost every home here comes standard with a 100 amp 120/240 volt split phase service, but many utilities have not sized their end to handle all of these being pushed to the max at once, it is quite possible transformers and even feeder cables would need to be upgraded in many neighborhoods. Of course all this assuming the EV's are charged at home.
I don't doubt it can be dealt with but atleast in the us we don't have the greatest track record when it comes to infrastructure maintenance and upgrades. And of course the power companies will want money to help them upgrade but then want to keep all the profits made possible by those upgrades
 

semipro

Minister of Fire
Jan 12, 2009
4,009
SW Virginia
With the cost of these electric cars they will only be for the better off people and the less rich people will most likely have to drive somewhere with a bunch of other people.
I'm not rich by any measure but could afford a used Nissan Leaf for $13k with 30k miles on it. Similar vehicles are available for much less. Also, the cost of operation is very low compared to a conventional infernal combustion vehicle so lifetime cost should be well below conventional vehicles.
Sure, it takes more thought and planning considering range limitations and charging but that's the price that I and others are willing to pay for more sustainable mobility.

BTW, I just happened to write a proposal today to work with affordable housing providers to provide short-term rental EVs at multi-family housing facilities - like the Zipcar model but with EVs.
 
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ABMax24

Minister of Fire
I don't doubt it can be dealt with but atleast in the us we don't have the greatest track record when it comes to infrastructure maintenance and upgrades. And of course the power companies will want money to help them upgrade but then want to keep all the profits made possible by those upgrades
I do definitely see that as an issue in many parts of the US, it seems every time upgrades are needed that utilities won't budge until huge sums of taxpayer dollars are handed over to utilities.

Our system is similar but different. Our utility (ATCO is ours, other areas have different operators) operates on a cost + profit (something like 13%) basis regulated by the provincial government, where costs are recovered from ratepayers from fixed monthly charges and variable charges based on consumption. With this system there is incentive for the utility to complete upgrades to transmission equipment, because there are more profits to be made if they can justify the cost of more upgrades. We do pay more than some jurisdictions in transmission fees, but we are a large area with relatively small population as well, and our system is quite reliable in most areas. An 8hr outage is a very rare occurrence here.

Large transmission projects are controlled by the AESO (Alberta Electrical System Operator) and these projects are paid by a small fee taken out of wholesale electricity rates.

The vast majority of our electrical system is paid for by end users, as it should be, which for the most part keeps government and taxpayer dollars out of the system.
 

clancey

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2021
708
Colorado
I am trying to get the image now:
This is a boneyard near Paris, France with hundreds of electric powered cars. Mind you these are only cars used by the City of Paris and not personal vehicles. All of these have the same issue,.... the battery storage cells have given out and need replaced. Why not just replace them you ask? Well two reasons. First the battery storage cells cost almost double what the vehicle cost new, and second no landfill or disposals will allow the batteries to be disposed of there. So these green fairy tale electric cars are all sitting in vacant lots while their batteries drain toxins into the ground.
I cannot get the pictures up and do not know how to do this but there are about 100 or more of these city cars lined up all in neat rows and I will grab someone who can get the picture up for me but I got the beginning of the sentence anyway explaining what the picture is of and I am winging it with my computer skills here..lol clancey
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
24,178
central pa
I am trying to get the image now:
This is a boneyard near Paris, France with hundreds of electric powered cars. Mind you these are only cars used by the City of Paris and not personal vehicles. All of these have the same issue,.... the battery storage cells have given out and need replaced. Why not just replace them you ask? Well two reasons. First the battery storage cells cost almost double what the vehicle cost new, and second no landfill or disposals will allow the batteries to be disposed of there. So these green fairy tale electric cars are all sitting in vacant lots while their batteries drain toxins into the ground.
I cannot get the pictures up and do not know how to do this but there are about 100 or more of these city cars lined up all in neat rows and I will grab someone who can get the picture up for me but I got the beginning of the sentence anyway explaining what the picture is of and I am winging it with my computer skills here..lol clancey
No the batteries aren't disposed on in a landfill they are recycled. And no batteries do not cost twice what the car costs new that simply is not true. Those cars may be at a point that replacing the batteries isn't worth doing but the same happens all the time with ice vehicles. I would bet the batteries were already pulled. Good cells saved to be used to repair other cars in the fleet and bad ones recycled.
 

andym

Feeling the Heat
Feb 6, 2020
406
Hicksville, Ohio
I also heard someone talking about this large field of junk EVs. Decided to Google it and here is what I found.
This is just one of many articles explaining what the real story is behind the field of EVs. They are not junk or leaking toxic fluid. They are awaiting resale because an auto sharing company lost money and a contract.
I cannot vouch for the truth of the above article, but I would believe that quicker than anything on social media.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
24,178
central pa
I also heard someone talking about this large field of junk EVs. Decided to Google it and here is what I found.
This is just one of many articles explaining what the real story is behind the field of EVs. They are not junk or leaking toxic fluid. They are awaiting resale because an auto sharing company lost money and a contract.
I cannot vouch for the truth of the above article, but I would believe that quicker than anything on social media.
Thanks for doing a little research on the story. I typically would but was busy.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
87,668
South Puget Sound, WA
I'm not rich by any measure but could afford a used Nissan Leaf for $13k with 30k miles on it. Similar vehicles are available for much less. Also, the cost of operation is very low compared to a conventional infernal combustion vehicle so lifetime cost should be well below conventional vehicles.
Sure, it takes more thought and planning considering range limitations and charging but that's the price that I and others are willing to pay for more sustainable mobility.

BTW, I just happened to write a proposal today to work with affordable housing providers to provide short-term rental EVs at multi-family housing facilities - like the Zipcar model but with EVs.
Yes, they are making great deals on new Bolts now plus there are some nice deals on lease returns as well for under 20k.
 
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maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,765
Nova Scotia
I might have missed stuff, but have yet to see an electric SUV. Which I think is the best selling class of vehicle these days (considering the wide variety of sizes/classes). Seems manufacturers are missing targets in that? My personal vehicle preference is something like Pilot/Grand Cherokee class. Would be quite interested in an electric something like that. The PHEV Mitsu is getting close, but not quite my cup of tea, yet.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,848
Downeast Maine
I might have missed stuff, but have yet to see an electric SUV. Which I think is the best selling class of vehicle these days (considering the wide variety of sizes/classes). Seems manufacturers are missing targets in that? My personal vehicle preference is something like Pilot/Grand Cherokee class. Would be quite interested in an electric something like that. The PHEV Mitsu is getting close, but not quite my cup of tea, yet.
Ford already makes an electric SUV called the Mustang Mach E, or at least I think that is the name.
 

jebatty

Minister of Fire
Jan 1, 2008
5,786
Northern MN
Isn't the Tesla Model Y also a fully electric, mid-size SUV? Also has available seating for up to seven, and dual motor AWD. Also likely that more and more BEV offerings will be SUV style models.
 

Rusty18

Member
Nov 3, 2018
37
Belpre oh
Limited range, high cost to repair, end of use disposal issues, lack of supporting infrastructure...wait are we talking about the transition to ev’s now or to ice’s 100 years ago

I know my comment adds nothing intellectual to the conversation but really set back and think about it. Ev’s have it easy! 90% of the car is the same as what is already being produced, we are just swapping out the fuel supply.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
87,668
South Puget Sound, WA
Ford already makes an electric SUV called the Mustang Mach E, or at least I think that is the name.
The Tesla model X is an SUV as is the Mustang MachE. And more are coming. The Bolt EUV is taking orders now and the new Kia Nero is SUV ish, while their upcoming EV6 is moreso, though they are calling it a "CUV" to identify with the increasingly popular crossover utility vehicle class.
 
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maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,765
Nova Scotia
I did some basic napkin math the other day, if every car in Alberta (about 4 million of them) was an EV with efficiency of a Model Y, and everyone of those drove 50km everyday, and everyone of them charged at the same time over an 8hr period at night, that would place an additional demand on the Alberta power grid of 4000MW for those 8hrs. The current night time power consumption in Alberta is about 8000-9000MW and 9000-11000MW during the day time.

So with the power grid we already have we are most of the way to absorbing this additional energy demand. Sure extra transmission lines would need to be built along with new generation stations, but this isn't an insurmountable task by any means. For us the biggest issue would be residential power distribution on the utility side, almost every home here comes standard with a 100 amp 120/240 volt split phase service, but many utilities have not sized their end to handle all of these being pushed to the max at once, it is quite possible transformers and even feeder cables would need to be upgraded in many neighborhoods. Of course all this assuming the EV's are charged at home.
Also all assuming all 4 million cars drive 50 kms every day. I suspect a lot of cars spend many days of the week not moving at all. But that might be made up for by those who drive more than that each day.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,848
Downeast Maine
Ah, I see you mean a more traditional SUV. I think the closest thing would be an Electric F150 with a top on the bed.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
24,178
central pa
Ah, I see you mean a more traditional SUV. I think the closest thing would be an Electric F150 with a top on the bed.
Right now you are correct but I guarantee more truck like SUVs are on their way
 
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