How to deal with thick ice

[PaulOinMA]

Driveway is paved here. Ice layer easily separated from the pavement yesterday, and I was able to shovel it off to the sides. Just a little more to do today.

My wife walked out to meet a UPS driver at the end of the day yesterday. He said "thank you" for doing the driveway, and I get a gold star. Looked like mine was the only driveway down to pavement yesterday when I was running errands. Think folks here are waiting for the thaw today and tomorrow.

 

[PaulOinMA]

… I will remove snow but not at the expense of removing the gravel underneath.

Friend in Colchester CT wanted to have his driveway done 20+ years ago, and didn't want regular asphalt. I told him that I saw a macadam driveway on This Old House, and the guy was from RI.

http://www.larrytorti.com/projo-1993.htm.

My friend told his snow plow guy that it was macadam. Didn't matter that he told him. A lot was pushed to the end of the driveway.

 

[peakbagger]

Commercial grade snowblowers have adjustable skids that can be adjusted quite high for gravel driveways. I picked up a used Honda 1132 hydrostatic rig that had been used a lot on gravel driveways and the skids were set for a 2 inch gap. The impeller chamber had a steel patch welded on it where the gravel was chewing through the metal. The price was right but a hint is to avoid buying used snowblowers that were used on unpaved driveways as they tend to get worn out due to gravel and rocks running through the works.

 

[maple1]

Forget about trying to get rid of it.

I would first right away find a contractor with a salt/sand spreader and bite the bullet & pay him to sand your driveway. It shouldn't cost all that much - he'd likely just back in & drive back out, laying it down both ways. There should be someone around that can do that? The municipality should handle the road - they might have contact info for someone who could do your drive. They might even back in with a truck on the way by if you talk (plead?) nice to them - but that might be way too optimistic hope.

After that, use your wood ashes to hit the slippery spots as they show up or develop. That will make your ashes go further. Ashes work really good for this. Until you run out of them. Make sure you have a decent mat inside the door - they can get tracked inside. But if you go light on them for a ways outside your door, most should get tracked off there before coming inside.

Something else to do, is spread out some salt on top of your frozen sand. After it works/melts for a while you should be able to dig out or scrape off some sand/salt mix, and spread that around too. Repeat over time. Next year, if you mix some salt in with some sand, it shouldn't freeze solid. You could make a covered wood box maybe halfway down your driveway somewhere & load it up with a sand/salt mix before winter, to have ready for use when you need it. That would require shovel work though - even better would be a spreader on the back of your new tractor. But then you would need to manage filling it. And also would need to keep in mind the corrosiveness of salt. But a bit of sand can go a long way here - one spreader full might last you the whole winter, depending on conditions & spreader capacity.

 

[SpaceBus]

More than few folks with dirt driveways intentionally keep them iced up as the alternative is worse. My friend has a dirt driveway on clay and he intentionally drives on top of the snow to pack it down for the first few storms and only then does he plow the driveway. If he takes it down to dirt if there is warmup (forecasted for tomorrow) it just ruts up and then freezes. .

If this is your first winter in Maine you will soon learn about the 5th season which is mud season.

So I've heard. I would like to pick up a load of sand before that happens.

 

[peakbagger]

Sand doesnt work well for mud season and plenty of folks with a pit will gladly sell it as its not of much use. Even crushed gravel doesnt work that well unless its put down thick. About the only thing that works in mud season is crushed rock and even that sinks out of sight into the mud after a while. It works pretty well long term if there is geotextile under it as the geotextile keeps the clay from working up into the rock. Most folks just get to the point where their driveway is impassable and dump in the rock. There is an art to building a good year round driveway in an area with deep frost and few homeowners (and small towns) have the money to spend to put in a permanent one that is going to last. Vermont's approach is put up with mud season and not pave the roads so they can regrade the roads after the damage is done in the spring.

 

[semipro]

Not to be a wet blanket but... salt is showing up increasingly in our drinking water supplies in amounts that affect health and taste. In a study in New Hampshire they found that about 50% of it was being used for deicing private properties and parking lots. The amount used by DOTs on roads was far less. The rest came from water softening systems.

In 20 years on our rural property with winter weather on a difficult, sloped, driveway we've never resorted to using chemical deicers. Suitable vehicles and tires coupled with mechanical snow removal and aggregate application has worked for us.

That said, we have gotten stuck a few times and once whacked a nearby tree but I figure that's the price of country living.

 

[SpaceBus]

Forget about trying to get rid of it.

I would first right away find a contractor with a salt/sand spreader and bite the bullet & pay him to sand your driveway. It shouldn't cost all that much - he'd likely just back in & drive back out, laying it down both ways. There should be someone around that can do that? The municipality should handle the road - they might have contact info for someone who could do your drive. They might even back in with a truck on the way by if you talk (plead?) nice to them - but that might be way too optimistic hope.

After that, use your wood ashes to hit the slippery spots as they show up or develop. That will make your ashes go further. Ashes work really good for this. Until you run out of them. Make sure you have a decent mat inside the door - they can get tracked inside. But if you go light on them for a ways outside your door, most should get tracked off there before coming inside.

Something else to do, is spread out some salt on top of your frozen sand. After it works/melts for a while you should be able to dig out or scrape off some sand/salt mix, and spread that around too. Repeat over time. Next year, if you mix some salt in with some sand, it shouldn't freeze solid. You could make a covered wood box maybe halfway down your driveway somewhere & load it up with a sand/salt mix before winter, to have ready for use when you need it. That would require shovel work though - even better would be a spreader on the back of your new tractor. But then you would need to manage filling it. And also would need to keep in mind the corrosiveness of salt. But a bit of sand can go a long way here - one spreader full might last you the whole winter, depending on conditions & spreader capacity.

Thanks for the advice! We did manage to thaw some sand and we filled a few large Rubbermaid bins with sand and then added five pounds of salt to each. Some of my sand didn't freeze solid and we were able to spread it and that helped immensely. I'm saving up my bucket of wood ash until it's full, but that's only one more ash pan from the stove.
As far as the tractor, that will happen in a week or two. I was thinking about putting the spreader on my truck so I can keep the front loader and rear snowblower on the tractor at all times during the winter. I also plan on building a lean to or some kind of covered area for loads of sand and salt.

Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing? Supposedly our town provides some kind of sand and/or sand salt mix, but I have no idea where. I'm going to try and find out today.

The wife is losing her will to live here, but I keep trying to explain that next winter won't be so bad since we will be prepared. We just didn't have enough time. Our house took three months to close and the bank told us we had to take occupancy within 30 days. That put us at Nov 2nd, the day we moved in.

I love it here, but my wife thinks it's making my blood disorder worse, but it's not, it's just doing the same thing it did when I was stationed at Fort Bragg after I got back from Afghanistan when it all started. Actually she is the one that wanted to move here, I had never even been to New England until this past summer. I'm glad she brought me here, but the winter gives her regrets. After the tractor is parked next to the house, I think she will feel better.

 

[maple1]

I would only use enough salt to keep stored sand from freezing solid

 

[semipro]

About the only thing that works in mud season is crushed rock and even that sinks out of sight into the mud after a while.

I'm curious, are driveways there constructed with larger rock as a base followed by progressively smaller aggregate?
Here at least, we put down 3" rock first followed by 1" followed by crusher run which contains everything like 3/8" and smaller, including fines.
I can imagine though where frost goes deep that even 3" rock would just get pushed deeper each season.

 

[SpaceBus]

Not to be a wet blanket but... salt is showing up increasingly in our drinking water supplies in amounts that affect health and taste. In a study in New Hampshire they found that about 50% of it was being used for deicing private properties and parking lots. The amount used by DOTs on roads was far less. The rest came from water softening systems.

In 20 years on our rural property with winter weather on a difficult, sloped, driveway we've never resorted to using chemical deicers. Suitable vehicles and tires coupled with mechanical snow removal and aggregate application has worked for us.

That said, we have gotten stuck a few times and once whacked a nearby tree but I figure that's the price of country living.

We have dogs so we try to keep the salt use to a minimum, it's mainly to thaw our sand. I'm actually looking into beet juice as a thawing agent. My local tractor dealer said they can fill the tires with beet juice to add ballast to the tractor during low traction situations and heavy lifting. They must have a source for it, and I think that would be awesome to keep our sand from freezing.

We aren't looking to get rid of all the ice, just to give our feet and vehicles more traction. I've never encountered ice like this before, so it's new for me.

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm curious, are driveways there constructed with larger rock as a base followed by progressively smaller aggregate?
Here at least, we put down 3" rock first followed by 1" followed by crusher run which contains everything like 3/8" and smaller, including fines.
I can imagine though where frost goes deep that even 3" rock would just get pushed deeper each season.

I believe this to be the case for my driveway since it hasn't been maintained ever since it was put there in 1977. I imagine adding sand and gravel all winter only helps to maintain the surface.

 

[maple1]

Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing?

Well, not exactly. I would keep the sand covered from the elements, and mix some salt with it to keep it from freezing solid. I don't really know what the proper ratio would be - but quite a bit heavier on the sand than salt. You will likely end up with some chunks in it that break fairly easy with a shovel.

 

[peakbagger]

The big trick with building a driveway in areas with frost is drainage. If the soil is sandy/gravel water just drains through it and it never freezes. Unfortunately there are lot of clay soils out there in the region and in that case the clay retains the water and expands when it freezes and melts from the top down in the spring leading to soup on top of ice. It also melts on the top during the day and refreezes at night. The long term method is dig out the clay down a couple of feet and put in ditches that are at or below the base of the gravel. The ditches need to drain freely and sloped to drain year round and then the driveway is filled in with crushed gravel to finish elevation. Even with that design, clay will eventually work its way up through the gravel. My driveway is typical where they stripped the topsoil, back filled it with gravel and put the finish elevation above the surroundings so no need for a ditch and I got it paved. It has held up well over the years except for few stones working their way up due to frost action but it does act like a dam in the spring when the snow is melting but the ground is frozen. Good gravel is expensive and also can get clay migrating up into it so I think the approach now is strip the topsoil, laydown drainage fabric and then a thinner bed of gravel on top of the fabric. The fabric allows water to drain down but slows down the clay migrating up.

 

[SpaceBus]

Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing?

Well, not exactly. I would keep the sand covered from the elements, and mix some salt with it to keep it from freezing solid. I don't really know what the proper ratio would be - but quite a bit heavier on the sand than salt. You will likely end up with some chunks in it that break fairly easy with a shovel.

Yes, I want to build a simple pole structure for my sand pile. Even if I end up just buying pallets of tube sand, I still need something to cover it. I learned the hard way about this.

 

[festerw]

We have dogs so we try to keep the salt use to a minimum, it's mainly to thaw our sand. I'm actually looking into beet juice as a thawing agent. My local tractor dealer said they can fill the tires with beet juice to add ballast to the tractor during low traction situations and heavy lifting. They must have a source for it, and I think that would be awesome to keep our sand from freezing.

We aren't looking to get rid of all the ice, just to give our feet and vehicles more traction. I've never encountered ice like this before, so it's new for me.

Beet juice on it's own will not thaw anything out, it has to be used in conjunction with salt. You would be able to use less salt with it coated in beet juice though.

 

[SpaceBus]

Beet juice on it's own will not thaw anything out, it has to be used in conjunction with salt. You would be able to use less salt with it coated in beet juice though.

Thanks for the heads up. I was hoping sand soaked with beet juice wouldn't freeze. That's really all we need to happen.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Just keep laying that gravel down.Eventually you have an slightly elevated driveway that wont turn to mush in rain and snow and ice.

 

[thewoodlands]

My parking area and driveway, not to mention the plowed dirt road connecting my driveway to the paved road, is covered in inches of ice after yesterday's storm. We managed to keep the snow cleared, but then the rain came. What do I do now? I've never had to deal with this much ice before, and it's not going to go away on its own. If we had gotten the 1-3" of forecasted snow, this wouldn't have been an issue, but we didn't get the snow all morning like forecasted. We currently have about 1,500 lbs of sand and 125 lbs of salt and a 500,000 btu propane torch and some shovels. I know, not the best gear, but we are working on it. A tractor is happening soon, but it probably won't be for a few more weeks.

Please, we need some advice!

Thank you!

We use ash on most of the driveway when we get ice and sand on the upper part near the house.Since we put in an outside fireplace years back, we always have plenty or can make some real quick out of some dead pine.

 

[CaptSpiff]

We have dogs so we try to keep the salt use to a minimum, it's mainly to thaw our sand. I'm actually looking into beet juice as a thawing agent. My local tractor dealer said they can fill the tires with beet juice to add ballast to the tractor during low traction situations and heavy lifting. They must have a source for it, and I think that would be awesome to keep our sand from freezing.

We aren't looking to get rid of all the ice, just to give our feet and vehicles more traction. I've never encountered ice like this before, so it's new for me.

Remember to keep it simple, or it'll seem overwhelming and you'll get nothing done. Your idea of a tractor is great, but then you talk about a bucket on front and blower on back, and then you're moving to put beet juice liquid in the tires. I say slow down.
You just moved half way up the US coast to Maine. You bought someone's vacation home, implying that it may not be in a location with "all" the city/suburban services. You moved in at a time when that region enters it's toughest conditions with little experience or preparation. Don't try and tackle every problem at once.
1. Check with your neighbors, library, or Pennysaver flyer for plowing and sanding service. Hire them. They'll plow your drive and sand for you. Maybe they're even looking for some seasonal help and you could pickup some beer money.
2. Find a local truck & trailer center, or a u-haul center, and get a plow attachment for your duelly pickup.
3. Get in the habit of checking weather daily when you come home, and decide if the chains are needed for the next day (do that every day). Get used to driving slower.
4. Get your wife mobile. She probably feels equally overwhelmed and trapped. If new studded tires are out of $ range, check if your local tire guy can set her up with some smaller (undersized) used tires and get some close fitting cable "chains". Back in my day we called em Euro chains or s-chains.
5. Pick up a yard or two of sand at the Sand&Gravel. Mix each yard with a bag of salt and dump it on a tarp, then cover it with another tarp. Don't let it get rained on. Use some every day everywhere there's ice. Buy a good welcome mat to keep the dirt outside.
6. Plan on getting up an hour or two earlier every day to do the chores that come with living in the country. That means going to sleep earlier. ;-)
7. Find fun things to do with your wife in your area, so you are not so homesick every time the weather forecasts another 6-12 inches. XC skiing is relatively cheap and you can take your dogs with you. Again, the local library is great for those local resources.

OK, now it's time to tell me to shut-up and hit me with a snowball.

 

[festerw]

I'll only disagree with #2 above. A new plow big enough for a dually is going to run north of $4k, which would be better spent towards a tractor/implement. Most plows are only interchangeable for a few years on new trucks usually with more $$ for different mounts and wiring typically.

 

[maple1]

Remember to keep it simple, or it'll seem overwhelming and you'll get nothing done. Your idea of a tractor is great, but then you talk about a bucket on front and blower on back, and then you're moving to put beet juice liquid in the tires. I say slow down.
You just moved half way up the US coast to Maine. You bought someone's vacation home, implying that it may not be in a location with "all" the city/suburban services. You moved in at a time when that region enters it's toughest conditions with little experience or preparation. Don't try and tackle every problem at once.
1. Check with your neighbors, library, or Pennysaver flyer for plowing and sanding service. Hire them. They'll plow your drive and sand for you. Maybe they're even looking for some seasonal help and you could pickup some beer money.
2. Find a local truck & trailer center, or a u-haul center, and get a plow attachment for your duelly pickup.
3. Get in the habit of checking weather daily when you come home, and decide it the chains are needed for the next day (do that every day). Get used to driving slower.
4. Get your wife mobile. She probably feels equally overwhelmed and trapped. If new studded tires are out of $ range, check if your local tire guy can set her up with some smaller (undersized) used tires and get some close fitting cable "chains". Back in my day we called em Euro chains or s-chains.
5. Pick up a yard or two of sand at the Sand&Gravel. Mix each yard with a bag of salt and dump it on a tarp, then cover it with another tarp. Don't let it get rained on. Use some every day everywhere there's ice. Buy a good welcome mat to keep the dirt outside.
6. Plan on getting up an hour or two earlier every day to do the chores that come with living in the country. That means going to sleep earlier. ;-)
7. Find fun things to do with your wife in your area, so you are not so homesick every time the weather forecasts another 6-12 inches. XC skiing is relatively cheap and you can take your dogs with you. Again, the local library is great for those local resources.

OK, now it's time to tell me to shut-up and hit me with a snowball.

He's been talking about a tractor for quite a while now, way before the ice business. Given that, and the current conundrum, I would certainly have one that had an angle blade on the front (could get by with bucket but those can sometimes lead to a lot of back & forths when plowing), blower on the back, loaded tires, and chains. Keep it like that all winter and be ready for anything. Good used stuff can be had for decent $$, and then you get the thrill of the gear hunt added in.

Would not put a plow on the dually - would put the money to the above.

Would not set wifey up with tire chains - the hassles of putting them off & on all the time would wear thin real quick. Studded tires, yessir. We have those on wifeys car, daughters car, and our old car the the other kids have away at school. They will still slide around on glare ice but not near as bad.

Roger on the rest.

Next.

 

[peakbagger]

This rain event has turned into an icing event and driveway looks to be a lumpy skating rink when the temps drop tonight. I have a plow guy and he has a sander and was just in the driveway sanding the driveway. He does it as much for his safety as my traction. He cant afford to try and plow with ice underneath as if he slides and hits something it gets expensive.

I would much rather splurge on a commercial snowblower than a plow truck. Sure a commercial blower may cost $3,000 bucks but that's about what someone will pay for excise tax and a few months depreciation on a new $50,000 plow truck . Not sure where Spacebus is downeast in Maine but expect he gets a lot more snow than a typical southern New England homeowner. Unlike a plow I don't worry about my bankings getting too high as I throw the snow about 40' off the driveway. At the end of the winter I drain the fuel and maybe change the oil. It takes longer than using a plow but I know how to dress for it.

Worse case is I get a Webasto heater and install an air dryer on my Unimog SEE for cold weather and I can dig myself out of just about anything. Beats a Kubota

 

[CaptSpiff]

He's been talking about a tractor for quite a while now, way before the ice business. Given that, and the current conundrum, I would certainly have one that had an angle blade on the front (could get by with bucket but those can sometimes lead to a lot of back & forths when plowing), blower on the back, loaded tires, and chains. Keep it like that all winter and be ready for anything. Good used stuff can be had for decent $$, and then you get the thrill of the gear hunt added in.

Would not put a plow on the dually - would put the money to the above.

Yup, I'd be on a similar path for myself, but SpaceBus sounds like a young man with lots of energy and limited resources.
Not sure what size tractor he's looking for. A "good" used tractor will take some effort to find. And even greater effort to locate those add-ons. Don't want to get a orphan model, and then have to buy a second one later.
A new tractor with front bucket, depending on size, could set you back $15-50K. New add-ons like a snow blower is $4-10K.
And that equipment is pretty much limited to the homestead. A $4-5K plow could turn his dually into a second income.

Would not set wifey up with tire chains - the hassles of putting them off & on all the time would wear thin real quick. Studded tires, yessir. We have those on wifey's car, daughter's car, and our old car the the other kids have away at school. They will still slide around on glare ice but not near as bad.

Yup, I'm a big fan of winter tires with studs. Happy NY still allows em. This is my second year without em on my little AWD and it has changed how often I go to VT and the Poconos. Not pleased.

A set of new studded WinterForce (not the best but not the worst) tires from TireRack, fully mounted and balanced and shipped, is probably less than $800. But I remember my youth and money sometimes got tight. So four used tires for $50 each with Euro chains could get the wife anywhere she wanted for $400.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Peerless-Chain-Passenger-Tire-Cables-0173755/19853271

Then she'll really appreciate how quiet those studs are when he eventually buys them.

 

[blades]

thing with chains - ain't for high speed- maybe 20 mph max- one snapped crosslink and that can cause a lot of damage fast. Sure wish they hadn't banned studded tires here in WI.