Hunting Shack stove help needed

[Calde315]

Hi all,

I've done a bit of searching, but mainly what I see is the different brands and such of stoves, types of combustible used for fire etc.

I'm looking more for some help as to building/putting together a nice stove setup albeit likely used for our hunting shack up north. We've decided to convert an old grainery on our families old farmstead and have started the process of redoing it just enough to make it habitable for weekends to go up and hunt, BS, play cards and have a few cold ones.

We've narrowed it down to a wood stove as we have an abundance of wood that we can use. I'd say the bottom floor is about 750sq ft and the building is two floors, and the sleeping quarters will likely be upstairs.

What things do I need to know to start looking for the pieces? I've done some research, but don't know for example I need double or triple wall to go through the second floor and roof to the outside, or does it make it better/more efficient to go outside right away and then run the height of the building outside?

Trying to find things like that out and get the best setup for a Northern MN hunting shack that will likely at times see weather below the freezing mark. This forum seemed to be the closest I could find that would seem to have the answers.

Thanks in advance

 

[Lake Girl]

Calde, welcome to the forum. You`ve come to the right place but many folks are still enjoying sunshine and busy stacking wood and not spending a lot of time on the forum. You`ll have to be patient but advice will show up...

I`m a pellet burner but I hear you on the cold temps as I`m just north of the line in Ontario.

 

[blades]

Flue up through second floor or out the side wall and then up? Generally double wall inside, insulated triple there after. Stove size about a 2 cf would do for the area. heat rises so second floor is not that much of a concern. it is much simpler to build small fires then trying to push a small stove ( MN come on now I know darn well that hunting seasons temps can hover around the zero or less mark particularly at night- not to mention the blowing wind) A lot has to do with how well the place is going to be insulated how open the floor plan is. You will also need to look at minimum clearances for the stove and the flue system in relation to the shack layout. If you have indoor plumbing you will need to allow for possible electric tapes or space heaters for pipes and such.
I heated a 900 ft trailer with about a 2cf stove ( Layout long and narrow) for the most part it was ok but the bedroom on the back end was a bit on the cold side sometimes- coulple times in the dead of winter I had to open windows too hot. ( Like 90 in the main area and 0 outside).

 

[bholler]

Flue up through second floor or out the side wall and then up? Generally double wall inside, insulated triple there after. Stove size about a 2 cf would do for the area. heat rises so second floor is not that much of a concern. it is much simpler to build small fires then trying to push a small stove ( MN come on now I know darn well that hunting seasons temps can hover around the zero or less mark particularly at night- not to mention the blowing wind) A lot has to do with how well the place is going to be insulated how open the floor plan is. You will also need to look at minimum clearances for the stove and the flue system in relation to the shack layout. If you have indoor plumbing you will need to allow for possible electric tapes or space heaters for pipes and such.
I heated a 900 ft trailer with about a 2cf stove ( Layout long and narrow) for the most part it was ok but the bedroom on the back end was a bit on the cold side sometimes- coulple times in the dead of winter I had to open windows too hot. ( Like 90 in the main area and 0 outside).

I agree with most of that but as far as the pipe and chimney go it is best to go straight up and out. It is cheaper flows better and is easier to clean from the bottom. You want either single or double wall connector pipe until you pass through a wall or floor. from there on you want insulted double wall class a chimney. There are some triple walls out there that will work but the insulated double wall stuff is much better and doesn't cost that much more. Other than that follow all clearances and hearth requirements for the stove and follow the instructions for the chimney and you will be in good shape

 

[stovelark]

As far as stoves go, in that environment, you'll prob want a stove to respond quickly to warm things up. I'd suggest a large steel stove, simple to operate, inexpensive (In comparison to other types of wood stoves, ie soapstone, cast iron) and responds quickly to change (warm up) temperatures. Something like a Quadrafire, Lopi, PE, Enviro, Englander etc brand stove. All will heat quick, heat well and are more affordable. The class A chimney straight through is the best way to go, if straight vertical an in-line damper would be a good thought too. You might find something used in good shape. If cast iron is the stove for you, then I'd say Jotul or Hearthstone and/or Pacific Energy's Alderlea(s) would be good choices. Good luck with your project.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Will the cabin be going from 0f to 70f or will it be kept above freezing by propane or some other fuel.

If you'll be coming up from 0 I'd 2nd large steel stove, but I'll go single wall to the 1st floor ceiling where the double wall would take over.

 

[DanCorcoran]

As to expectations, when it's in the teens or lower at my cabin, it can take 12-24 hours to come up to a comfortable indoor temperature using just the woodstove. The previous owner left a gas-log stove, so I use it, my electric oven, plus an electric space heater in the bathroom. Using all of these, I can get the cabin up to 65 degrees or so in just a few hours.

A cabin with furniture has a lot of thermal mass to bring up to temperature, hence the long gradient if just using the woodstove. (My cabin is 600 sf down, with a 300 sf loft up).

 

[Calde315]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. More than I was thinking. I must admit, I'm more of a newcomer, so I don't completely understand everything and all the parts associated with it.

Background on the cabin -
Yes it's in northern MN, probably only a couple hours from the Canadian border. We've had hunting weekends where the lake we're on has ice thick enough to walk on and cross. We've also had weekends that it's t shirt weather. So the temp varies, but as someone pointed out, it can get cold in a hurry.
This is a old grain storage building and at the moment we don't really have anything insulated. That will be coming, but I wouldn't imagine we do great insulation, just enough to get us by, after all we'll have the clothing to keep us warm if need be. More just a rustic place to sleep overnight and cut the wind. That being said though, they did keep the grain in there so that it wouldn't freeze in the winter, so there must be some insulation.
It's rectangular shape and would say that the width is 60-70% of the length. It's all open upstairs and about 80% of the downstairs as well. We saved two "rooms" for the bathroom and one as a bedroom. There isn't any plumbing and probably won't be. There is electricity available but limited in the actual cabin. It's pretty bare bones right now, but we'll have a couch, card table and such. Nothing like home, and that's what we're shooting for. Get out and away from every day life.

With this, we'll likely stay used if we can. Again, it's going to be used maybe 4 weekends out of the year, so no need for brand new sparkling pieces if it's rarely used. Probably be doing a lot of classified/craigslist searching.


Terminology -
I know a few things but wanted to get a little more explanation
- 2cf = 2 cubic foot correct?
- As I understand there are three types of flue pipes, single wall, double wall and triple wall. I would have thought that cost would have went up as you get more wall insulated pipe but based on one of your comments, that may not be the case? I saw someone said that after you've gone through a wall or floor, to use insulated the rest of the way. This is the proper way to do it unlike to lines below (single wall - double wall -single wall)
- I see a lot of reference to class A piping, is there a rating on some?
- As I understand it the system from the ground up would go stove -> flue (stove pipe?) -> XX insulated when going through floor -> back to single after going through a floor? -> YY insulated when going through the wall/roof -> roof piece. Where does a damper fit in and what purpose does it serve? Doesn't that just meter air/smoke in or out?


Anything in specific I should be looking for when piecing together parts of the system? Is double wall class A piping always the way to go if it can be found etc, items like that.

Lastly, is there any good links that are like a DIY for this, so that I can follow and answer some of these simple questions that I have? Would be nice to see a step by step procedure that someone was installing a stove system into a house or something to see the process/pieces involved

Thanks again!

 

[kennyp2339]

read through this link (broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/docs/product/L119_W.pdf)

 

[bholler]

- As I understand there are three types of flue pipes, single wall, double wall and triple wall. I would have thought that cost would have went up as you get more wall insulated pipe but based on one of your comments, that may not be the case? I saw someone said that after you've gone through a wall or floor, to use insulated the rest of the way. This is the proper way to do it unlike to lines below (single wall - double wall -single wall)
- I see a lot of reference to class A piping, is there a rating on some?
- As I understand it the system from the ground up would go stove -> flue (stove pipe?) -> XX insulated when going through floor -> back to single after going through a floor? -> YY insulated when going through the wall/roof -> roof piece. Where does a damper fit in and what purpose does it serve? Doesn't that just meter air/smoke in or out?

No there is single and double wall stove or connector pipe. Then there is double wall insulated or triple wall flue or chimney pipe.

Class a pipe is prefab chimney pipe you need to transition to that once you penetrate structure. After you do that you run class a the rest of the way to the top.

As far as a damper generally with new stoves you don't use one you control the fire by regulating the air going into the stove not the exhaust. they are however needed occasionally if you have excessive draft.

 

[Calde315]

No there is single and double wall stove or connector pipe. Then there is double wall insulated or triple wall flue or chimney pipe.

Class a pipe is prefab chimney pipe you need to transition to that once you penetrate structure. After you do that you run class a the rest of the way to the top.

Can you explain the first paragraph a bit more? Isn't there single wall, double and triple insulated pipe? I know I've seen these in the store.

So once you're to the roof, you work with class A chimney pipe and sounds like it comes as a kit.

Thanks for the link, I need to read over that. Looks to answer some questions

 

[bholler]

Can you explain the first paragraph a bit more? Isn't there single wall, double and triple insulated pipe? I know I've seen these in the store.

Yes i can. Basically every freestanding stove has a chimney and a pipe connecting it to that chimney. The connector pipe can be single wall pipe of double wall pipe. single wall is fine for most stoves in most situations but it needs 18" of clearance to combustibles. Double wall stove pipe keeps the temperatures up in the pipe better so stoves with low outlet temps need it and it only needs 6" to combustibles. Then you have the chimney. We are talking about prefab chimneys here so we wont talk about masonry ones. There are basically 2 types of prefab or class a chimneys on the market here. The one most pros prefer is double wall insulated. It has and inner wall of stainless steel then 1" of insulation then an outer wall which is usually stainless also but there is some cheaper stuff out there with galvanized exterior. Then there is triple wall. Most of the triple wall pipe made is for prefab fireplaces and is not tested to a high enough temperature for use with a wood stove. But there are a few high temperature triple wall systems out there. Some is simply air cooled with no insulation at all which keeps the temperatures down on the outside to keep it safe but it does not maintain temperature in the stack very well. There is also triple wall that uses 1/2" of insulation then a layer of metal than air space and them an outer wall. This type works ok but does not keep the temperatures up as well as the double wall chimney and it is also larger outside diameter than the double wall. So you need a bigger hole. All of the prefab chimney systems i know of need 2" clearance to combustibles and you can order all of the fittings and brackets you need to support it and keep proper clearances

 

[DanCorcoran]

As a word of explanation of the above, it is important to keep the temperature of your exhaust gases high while they are in your piping so that creosote doesn't condense in there, resulting in a chimney fire. Inside the cabin, you can use single-wall and let the heat radiate into the cabin. But on the exterior, you want to insulate the pipe so that the cold outside temps don't chill the exhaust gases and condense the creosote.

 

[bholler]

As a word of explanation of the above, it is important to keep the temperature of your exhaust gases high while they are in your piping so that creosote doesn't condense in there, resulting in a chimney fire. Inside the cabin, you can use single-wall and let the heat radiate into the cabin. But on the exterior, you want to insulate the pipe so that the cold outside temps don't chill the exhaust gases and condense the creosote.

Yes you are right about most of that but you can only use single wall on the first floor once you go through that you need to switch to chimney. And you should not be heating with the pipe. once the exhaust leaves the stove you want to keep as much heat in it as possible inside or out.

 

[Grisu]

What is your total budget? You can easily spend $5000 on stove and chimney but I assume you want to keep it lower than that.

And before even getting the stove be aware that it will absolutely need dry wood. Dry meaning less than 20% internal moisture content. That requires stacking the split wood in a sunny and windy location from at least 1 to up to 3 years. You will already be late for this winter since anything that you put up now won't burn well before the next. I recommend to get the wood going ASAP while looking for a stove.

 

[Calde315]

Yes i can. Basically every freestanding stove has a chimney and a pipe connecting it to that chimney. The connector pipe can be single wall pipe of double wall pipe. single wall is fine for most stoves in most situations but it needs 18" of clearance to combustibles. Double wall stove pipe keeps the temperatures up in the pipe better so stoves with low outlet temps need it and it only needs 6" to combustibles. Then you have the chimney. We are talking about prefab chimneys here so we wont talk about masonry ones. There are basically 2 types of prefab or class a chimneys on the market here. The one most pros prefer is double wall insulated. It has and inner wall of stainless steel then 1" of insulation then an outer wall which is usually stainless also but there is some cheaper stuff out there with galvanized exterior. Then there is triple wall. Most of the triple wall pipe made is for prefab fireplaces and is not tested to a high enough temperature for use with a wood stove. But there are a few high temperature triple wall systems out there. Some is simply air cooled with no insulation at all which keeps the temperatures down on the outside to keep it safe but it does not maintain temperature in the stack very well. There is also triple wall that uses 1/2" of insulation then a layer of metal than air space and them an outer wall. This type works ok but does not keep the temperatures up as well as the double wall chimney and it is also larger outside diameter than the double wall. So you need a bigger hole. All of the prefab chimney systems i know of need 2" clearance to combustibles and you can order all of the fittings and brackets you need to support it and keep proper clearances

Ok this makes more sense. Thank you for taking the time to differentiate between the different walls.

As a word of explanation of the above, it is important to keep the temperature of your exhaust gases high while they are in your piping so that creosote doesn't condense in there, resulting in a chimney fire. Inside the cabin, you can use single-wall and let the heat radiate into the cabin. But on the exterior, you want to insulate the pipe so that the cold outside temps don't chill the exhaust gases and condense the creosote.

This helps as well. I didn't know why people wanted to insulate the pipe, as I would have expected the hot gasses to radiate out through the pipe and that would help heat the place as well. Now I know why you want the inside of the pipe to be consistently warm/hot.

Yes you are right about most of that but you can only use single wall on the first floor once you go through that you need to switch to chimney. And you should not be heating with the pipe. once the exhaust leaves the stove you want to keep as much heat in it as possible inside or out.

So once I go through a floor or a wall, it's double wall chimney pipe from there. It's not like a chunk of double wall to keep the external temps low while going through a floor and then back to single wall again. There aren't connectors like that. So for my case, it could be stove then single wall pipe up until 18" or whatever the distance to combustibles is, then double wall from there to the roof, where you meet the chimney chunk of pipe.

What is your total budget? You can easily spend $5000 on stove and chimney but I assume you want to keep it lower than that.

And before even getting the stove be aware that it will absolutely need dry wood. Dry meaning less than 20% internal moisture content. That requires stacking the split wood in a sunny and windy location from at least 1 to up to 3 years. You will already be late for this winter since anything that you put up now won't burn well before the next. I recommend to get the wood going ASAP while looking for a stove.

Not too terribly worried about dry wood. We have plenty of sources to get that from for the time being. We definitely aren't going to dump $5k into just the stove. I would imagine we'd want to stay under $1000 by buying used and piecing together deals, but in order to do that and know what you're getting, you need to know more about the system as a whole, which I was trying to do. You guys have been quite helpful so far. I know I'll need some double wall, it's once you get to the roof and above, that I gotta look into more to see what's needed. Going to comb over that Duravent link as I think there is some help in there.

 

[bholler]

So for my case, it could be stove then single wall pipe up until 18" or whatever the distance to combustibles is, then double wall from there to the roof, where you meet the chimney chunk of pipe.

no it is chimney pipe fron the time it hits the ceiling on the first floor. And you want to stay under $1000 for the stove and chimney? That is going to be very hard to do

 

[DanCorcoran]

Ok this makes more sense. Thank you for taking the time to differentiate between the different walls.

This helps as well. I didn't know why people wanted to insulate the pipe, as I would have expected the hot gasses to radiate out through the pipe and that would help heat the place as well. Now I know why you want the inside of the pipe to be consistently warm/hot.

So once I go through a floor or a wall, it's double wall chimney pipe from there. It's not like a chunk of double wall to keep the external temps low while going through a floor and then back to single wall again. There aren't connectors like that. So for my case, it could be stove then single wall pipe up until 18" or whatever the distance to combustibles is, then double wall from there to the roof, where you meet the chimney chunk of pipe.

Not too terribly worried about dry wood. We have plenty of sources to get that from for the time being. We definitely aren't going to dump $5k into just the stove. I would imagine we'd want to stay under $1000 by buying used and piecing together deals, but in order to do that and know what you're getting, you need to know more about the system as a whole, which I was trying to do. You guys have been quite helpful so far. I know I'll need some double wall, it's once you get to the roof and above, that I gotta look into more to see what's needed. Going to comb over that Duravent link as I think there is some help in there.

Here's a photo of mine, inside and out. Single-wall in, double-wall insulated out. The roof is just 2" pine with sheet-foam insulation and metal sheathing over that. I clean from below so I don't have to try to reach top of chimney with a ladder on the sloped roof.

 

[Calde315]

Here's a photo of mine, inside and out. Single-wall in, double-wall insulated out. The roof is just 2" pine with sheet-foam insulation and metal sheathing over that. I clean from below so I don't have to try to reach top of chimney with a ladder on the sloped

Yes something simple like that is what we're trying to do. Although we'd have to go through a floor first. But it sounds like it's hard to do for under $1000

 

[bholler]

But it sounds like it's hard to do for under $1000

In order to stay under $1000 you would have to get a very good deal on everything used. And even then you would have to orderr some parts for the chimney i am sure. I seriously doubt you will be able to do it

 

[EatenByLimestone]

You may be able to do the pipe for $1000.

 

[Calde315]

So what about something like this? It measures 29.2" x 18.5" and 14.5" and if I did my math right that's 4 cubic feet but I don't know if that's the overall stove or the burning chamber. Looks pretty standard, and I know it doesn't include the stove pipe, but it'll have to be pieced together.

(broken link removed to http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/spo/5153610221.html)


This seems like exactly what a guy would need for pipe, although some of you didn't prefer galvanized.

(broken link removed to http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/mat/5148482099.html)

 

[bholler]

you couldn't pay me to put one of those boxwood stoves in any structure i was going to be in

 

[bholler]

This seems like exactly what a guy would need for pipe, although some of you didn't prefer galvanized.

As long as the pipe is in good shape still that is not a bad deal just keep an eye out for rust on the galvanized

 

[Calde315]

Well my grandpa picked up a stove he deemed was good and we picked up 16+ ft of double insulated pipe, support pieces, storm collar and flashing, and cap. All stainless steel duravent pieces I believe. Came with a couple of the 45 degree swivel connecting pieces as well.

We'll see how this turns out. Got everything but the stove for $250. We didn't get everything done, but got it all in place and holes in the ceilings and walls. Still need something under eat the stove.

Appreciate all the tips and help. Should be a good heater once we get it all done