Hybrid/Catalytic Stoves and Fireplace Reconfiguring!

[aaron1]

Hi,

Last year I started burning wood for the first time in my pre-80's VC Vigilant that came with our house. I really loved the radiating warmth and want to continue burning wood. I'd like to replace my Vigilant with a new stove that emits less pollution and is more efficient with my hard-earned wood! I have a few thoughts on this, so give me some feedback if you care to!

I am wondering why someone would choose a stove without a catalyst, if money isn't really a concern. It seems like they are the most efficient (meaning less work cutting wood) and the cleanest burning (for those who care about air pollution). I realize the new non-cat stoves are pretty darn clean, but I don't see why you'd choose one when you can get a cat. stove.

My thinking is that it makes the most sense to buy a large catalytic stove and then burn it only as warm as you need to heat your house, using the catalytic combustor for a long, steady burn at the desired temp. If it's really cold, you can push up the temps higher and you have the large surface area of the stove to radiate more warmth. Am I missing something? I love the look of the Jotul's, but they're a little less efficient than a catalytic stove, though I like the idea of supporting my local woodstove shop, which sells jotuls. I was thinking an F500 might be about right for me, but my friend with a F 3 CB has a little trouble keeping his secondary going without overheating his small living room when it's not Cold out. I think he would have been better off with a catalytic stove that he could crank down as much as he wants and still get a clean burn. It seems so perfect. i don't mind technical stuff either, so that's not a concern. i love to geek out on my homebrewing and woodburning! Can you tell me something about burning a catalytic stove really hard and hot. Is that bad for it? That's why a hybrid seemed good to me, like the progress hybrid or Cape Cod.

If you want a ton of heat in the really cold months, is a catalytic stove limited due to it's heat output? If that's the case then a hybrid stove seems best so you can burn it really low and slow during fall and spring and then crank it up during the coldest parts of winter. Also, isn't a cat. easier to control regarding temperature swings?

I'm not sure what stove to get. I'm interested in the hybrid stoves or a catalytic stove obviously. (WS Progress, Lopi Cape Cod, maybe a Blaze King if I can get something that fits, also, why is the WS Fireview such a grandma-looking stove, ugh, probably too small anyway!) Anyway, I need help thinking about how big of stove to get. My idea (as i said above) is to get a large (~3 cu ft - similar to my vigilant) catalytic stove so that I can burn it at a low burn and lower BTU output or crank it up in January as needed. I have a 1600-1700 sq ft house (2 levels of approx. 800-850 sq ft each - an old square, 2-level house common from the early 1900s,and we get down below the 20s, sometimes below zero in January here.) We's like to keep it nice and warm all of the time, maybe 85-90 or so in the main room and 70s in the rest of the house, and it's quite drafty and uninsulated, so I think a larger stove is the best solution. If I run the Vigilant at 600F surface temp in the dead of winter with large loads of wood, I can stay comfortable. in the fall, i run it at maybe 500-550 with medium fires to stay comfortable. (I've found that a griddle temp of 550F in the back right corner of the Vigilant with a small fire in that corner is drastically different from a 550F griddle temp in the back corner with a full load of wood - the rest of the stove is also at 550F at least in this case!)

My other question is what to do about my fireplace. I have a hearth that is about 20.5" deep and then my opening in my fireplace (for my stove to fit) is only about 33.75" wide (pretty good) and 28 3/8" high (pretty limiting!) I find that limits me a lot. I don't think I could fit in many of the stoves I'd like. Is it outrageous pricing to have someone come and take out some of the bricks and my damper plate in my fireplace so that I can get a bigger stove in? Would a new buyer of the house freak out? Am I in the ballpark for heating my 1700 sq ft house with a 3 cu ft. hybrid or cat. stove? I am shocked at how the heat just flows out of my living room and upstairs our outside!

I'm sorry for the rambling, but I'm trying to think about a lot of stuff right now. Thanks for any replies

Aaron

 

[weatherguy]

You're right about being able to turn down a catalytic stove in shoulder season. Are you installing this in front of a fireplace.

 

[aaron1]

You're right about being able to turn down a catalytic stove in shoulder season. Are you installing this in front of a fireplace.

I'd be installing it in front of my fireplace. If I get a cape cod or a progress hybrid i'll need to either have some brick taken out on top to open up the top and get rid of the damper plate OR bring the stovepipe up and go through the brick into the smoke shelf area with pipe and then up my liner OR I could have the hearth removed and place the stove on a hearth pad (gains me another 6" of height.)

If you shut back the burn rate to the lowest level on these stoves what kind of surface temps do you get?

 

[weatherguy]

I'd be installing it in front of my fireplace. If I get a cape cod or a progress hybrid i'll need to either have some brick taken out on top to open up the top and get rid of the damper plate OR bring the stovepipe up and go through the brick into the smoke shelf area with pipe and then up my liner OR I could have the hearth removed and place the stove on a hearth pad (gains me another 6" of height.)

If you shut back the burn rate to the lowest level on these stoves what kind of surface temps do you get?

I have a BK and don't bother with the surface temp, I only look at the cat temp, on a night like tonight (high 40's) I have it turned way down and the blower off (I have an insert) and the cat temp is about halfway in the active zone, on a cold night Id have it way in the active zone.
If you go with a Woodstock Progress Hybrid stove you wont have to do all that masonry work and be able to rear vent it. The PH should be plenty of stove for your house, if you don't like the FV you may not like the PH.

 

[Boiler74]

You might want to look at the specs on the PH a little more. The short leg kit gives you 22.75" to the center of the flue. So you'd be 26" or so to the top of a rear flue setup. Well under your 28 3/8" opening height. I don't know if the rest of your hearth will work but it looks like that will.

As for burning hot, yes the PH will burn hot and throw a lot of heat. But it's nice that it will burn nice and low too.

 

[Todd]

Take a look at webby3650 thread on his Blaze King Asford. He has compared his Lopi hybrid to his new BK cat, it may be helpful in your decision.

Personally I think the new hybrids are pretty much a non cat with a cat there to help clean up any emissions that are left over. They are very efficient and clean burning but you can't simply flip a switch and go from full non cat to cat only burn. The BK t-stat cat combo is the best setup for shoulder season burns and has the most control of any stove out there.

 

[Ashful]

Normally, I'd say 3.0 cu.ft. is way too big for 1650 sq.ft., but you're already burning a big stove, and have already determined that fits your needs. All of your assumptions about catalytic vs. non-catalytic are correct. Cat's have a wider range of burn temps, from very low, to as hot as a non-cat. I routinely burn my cat stoves with stove temp up to 700F, and they're also happy burning all day at stovetop temps as low as 250F. There is simply no way to hold the stovetop below 300F throughout an entire burn cycle, on a non-cat stove.

If you like the look of a Jotul, with catalytic technology, check out the Firelight 12's. They were made 1990 - 2002'ish, and they're a great stove, according to all here who have owned them. I have trouble with one of mine, which is on a too-short (13 - 15 foot range) chimney, but the one on a 27 foot chimney simply rocks. Likewise, some Woodstock owners (yes, even PH owners) have reported back-puffing troubles on installs with shorter chimneys.

The trouble I have with my Firelight 12 on the short chimney is:

1. Draft insufficient at warmer outside temps to get easy cat light-off. I rarely have the same troubles with the same stove on the taller chimney.
2. Back-puffing when the air is shut down real tight, again, at warmer outside temperatures. I can cruise this stove on the shorter chimney as low as 350 - 400, and get a good 8 - 10 hours of heat out of it. However, the one on the taller chimney can cruise down below 300F, and provide useable heat for more than 12 hours.

You just missed a good deal on member bluerubi's Firelight 12... he sold it here just a few weeks ago.

Given your low fireplace lintel, I'd build a hearth extension, and go with a rear-vent stove. Easily removable, should some future owner not want the rig. The Woodstock PH is an attractive option, if you need big heat, but it does not have the kind of low and slow burn times Blaze King can provide. I do not believe any other commercially-available wood stove will burn as low and slow as a Blaze King.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Hi,

Last year I started burning wood for the first time in my pre-80's VC Vigilant that came with our house. I really loved the radiating warmth and want to continue burning wood. I'd like to replace my Vigilant with a new stove that emits less pollution and is more efficient with my hard-earned wood! I have a few thoughts on this, so give me some feedback if you care to!

I am wondering why someone would choose a stove without a catalyst, if money isn't really a concern. It seems like they are the most efficient (meaning less work cutting wood) and the cleanest burning (for those who care about air pollution). I realize the new non-cat stoves are pretty darn clean, but I don't see why you'd choose one when you can get a cat. stove.

My thinking is that it makes the most sense to buy a large catalytic stove and then burn it only as warm as you need to heat your house, using the catalytic combustor for a long, steady burn at the desired temp. If it's really cold, you can push up the temps higher and you have the large surface area of the stove to radiate more warmth. Am I missing something? I love the look of the Jotul's, but they're a little less efficient than a catalytic stove, though I like the idea of supporting my local woodstove shop, which sells jotuls. I was thinking an F500 might be about right for me, but my friend with a F 3 CB has a little trouble keeping his secondary going without overheating his small living room when it's not Cold out. I think he would have been better off with a catalytic stove that he could crank down as much as he wants and still get a clean burn. It seems so perfect. i don't mind technical stuff either, so that's not a concern. i love to geek out on my homebrewing and woodburning! Can you tell me something about burning a catalytic stove really hard and hot. Is that bad for it? That's why a hybrid seemed good to me, like the progress hybrid or Cape Cod.

If you want a ton of heat in the really cold months, is a catalytic stove limited due to it's heat output? If that's the case then a hybrid stove seems best so you can burn it really low and slow during fall and spring and then crank it up during the coldest parts of winter. Also, isn't a cat. easier to control regarding temperature swings?

I'm not sure what stove to get. I'm interested in the hybrid stoves or a catalytic stove obviously. (WS Progress, Lopi Cape Cod, maybe a Blaze King if I can get something that fits, also, why is the WS Fireview such a grandma-looking stove, ugh, probably too small anyway!) Anyway, I need help thinking about how big of stove to get. My idea (as i said above) is to get a large (~3 cu ft - similar to my vigilant) catalytic stove so that I can burn it at a low burn and lower BTU output or crank it up in January as needed. I have a 1600-1700 sq ft house (2 levels of approx. 800-850 sq ft each - an old square, 2-level house common from the early 1900s,and we get down below the 20s, sometimes below zero in January here.) We's like to keep it nice and warm all of the time, maybe 85-90 or so in the main room and 70s in the rest of the house, and it's quite drafty and uninsulated, so I think a larger stove is the best solution. If I run the Vigilant at 600F surface temp in the dead of winter with large loads of wood, I can stay comfortable. in the fall, i run it at maybe 500-550 with medium fires to stay comfortable. (I've found that a griddle temp of 550F in the back right corner of the Vigilant with a small fire in that corner is drastically different from a 550F griddle temp in the back corner with a full load of wood - the rest of the stove is also at 550F at least in this case!)

My other question is what to do about my fireplace. I have a hearth that is about 20.5" deep and then my opening in my fireplace (for my stove to fit) is only about 33.75" wide (pretty good) and 28 3/8" high (pretty limiting!) I find that limits me a lot. I don't think I could fit in many of the stoves I'd like. Is it outrageous pricing to have someone come and take out some of the bricks and my damper plate in my fireplace so that I can get a bigger stove in? Would a new buyer of the house freak out? Am I in the ballpark for heating my 1700 sq ft house with a 3 cu ft. hybrid or cat. stove? I am shocked at how the heat just flows out of my living room and upstairs our outside!

I'm sorry for the rambling, but I'm trying to think about a lot of stuff right now. Thanks for any replies

Aaron

Welcome to the forum Aaron.

Before going too far, we are one very happy family with our Woodstock Fireview and have never considered it looking like a grandma-looking stove at all. In fact, we think it fits in year around and looks like a fine piece of furniture. However, there are many more benefits to this stove and I might fit your home nicely. If not, for sure the Progress would.

When we bought our Fireview (which is our sole source of heat) we immediately found we could keep our old home very comfortable all winter long. Not only that, but we also found we could do it using only about half of the amount of wood we had previously been using. Also, with the old stove, we closed off part of the house in the winter. Not so now as we keep the house at 80 or above all winter long and every room is comfortable. This, unlike your home is on one level.

One very nice thing to keep in mind if you do buy from Woodstock is that 6 month money-back guarantee. They do stand behind their stoves and their customer service is second to none.

Now about running the stove. You can get good heat from either a cat or a non cat stove. Both can burn very clean and efficient too so long as you have good fuel to burn. Of course this means you can not burn as people did in days of old. The new stoves demand good dry wood. Without that, no stove will supply your needs so do make sure you have lots of wood on hand and have some drying at all times. We like to stay 3 years ahead on our wood supply and if folks do that, the benefits are really super. I could go on and on about this but won't. Just want you to be aware.


With our cat stove, the spring/fall burning is very simple. At most, we may put in 3 splits in the morning and 3 at night. But sometimes even that is too much. Today is one of those days when we were working (remodeling a bathroom) so we did not want it so warm. We put in one split this morning. Another went in sometime around noon. This kept the stove top temperature fairly low and the flue temperature at about the minimum temperature. At present the outdoor temperature is 37 (which is the high for the day) but today there is also no wind. I just looked and our house temperature is 82. No wonder I had to remove a shirt!


So what about those times when we really need the heat. Can we crank it up? Indeed we can. We have no problem getting the stove top temperature over 600 and even up to 700. But if we need even more heat, then we can give just a little more draft and it will actually cool the stove top a bit while getting the sides and front of the stove hotter so you get even more heat from the stove. When the nights get really cold, that is when we break out the oak and burn that for our overnight fires because oak will hold the fires a bit longer than many other types of wood. The bad part is that oak needs lots of time to dry before burning and we make sure our oak has been split and stacked for 3 years before burning it.

Another benefit we have enjoyed is the clean chimney. In the six full winter's we've ran this stove, the chimney has been cleaned once and the cap has not been cleaned at all. This is amazing because we used to clean our chimney several times every winter. Not so any more!

Good luck to you no matter which stove you purchase.

 

[webby3650]

Take a look at webby3650 thread on his Blaze King Asford. He has compared his Lopi hybrid to his new BK cat, it may be helpful in your decision.

Personally I think the new hybrids are pretty much a non cat with a cat there to help clean up any emissions that are left over. They are very efficient and clean burning but you can't simply flip a switch and go from full non cat to cat only burn. The BK t-stat cat combo is the best setup for shoulder season burns and has the most control of any stove out there.

That's about it! In the hybrids, the cat is really acting as a scrubber for the smoke. It helps with the slower burn, but not to the extent that a true cat stove can.

Here's the skinny on this as it was told to me from a friend in the know.
With all the testing that the EPA has conducted on stoves they have came to this conclusion on cat compared to non-cat:

- Non cat stoves burn at their cleanest from a medium to high setting.
-Cat stoves run their cleanest from a medium to low setting.
-Stoves spend 80% of their burn cycle on the medium to low setting. You do the math

These EPA efficiency ratings are very confusing to say the least! If you notice an EPA tag, most say "not tested for efficiency" they are given a default effeciency rating because they tested ok in some areas and not so good in others areas and the Default number is better than the actual test. To my Knowledge, Blaze King, Woodstock, and the Cape Cod are the only stoves giving actual numbers.

So the EPA is cracking down on manufacturers for dirty numbers, therefore adding a cat is an attempt to clean it up and it works, but it's nothing new! Blaze King did it in 1983, after a few thousand units it was abandoned. Hybrids can burn very clean, but so do most cat stoves. The down fall is the added expense upfront as well as maintenance in the future. You are buying both combustion systems and maintaining them.

You will see a cat in every stove sold in the US in a few short years. Get ready, it's coming!

 

[Tenn Dave]

Hi Aaron,

I also am a newbie at wood burning and before I purchased my Progess Hybrid, I narrowed my picks down to the Progress and the BK Princess. They are both very good and popular stoves. What pushed me into the Woodstock camp was the good looks in addition to the outstanding performance. What I liked most besides the respectable burn times, awesome heat, controllability, and the stingy wood consumption, was the fact that it is a very handsome stove that is a pleasure to look at 12 months of the year. Whenever people come into my home, they always comment about how nice the stove looks. Before I made my purchase, I would visit my cousin's house and he had a Progress Hybrid. I loved the way the soapstove heat felt so warm yet very gentle and comfortable. His prior stove was a steel box stove (not sure the model or the age) and it often felt harsh and very dry. I know that is subjective, but it was my impression. Any of the 3 stoves you are considering are fine heating machines, and whichever you select, you won't go wrong. Good luck.

 

[HotCoals]

I think what bothers me most about tube stoves is the fact that on most if not all the secondary air can't be closed off.
I know some have tin foil balls ready and some use magnets and all that stuff but a new burner is not going to have the knowledge to do that.
Maybe it's not such a issue(run away) on the hybrids.

 

[Tenn Dave]

I think what bothers me most about tube stoves is the fact that on most if not all the secondary air can't be closed off.
I know some have tin foil balls ready and some use magnets and all that stuff but a new burner is not going to have the knowledge to do that.
Maybe it's not such a issue(run away) on the hybrids.

I do not believe that I have read about any Progress Hybrid 'run away' problems on this forum. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do not recall reading about it as an issue. However, I suppose operator error could lead to problems with any stove.

 

[BrotherBart]

Excessive draft is gonna overfire any stove. Cat/non-cat or combination of above. The reason that Woodstock suggests a pipe damper if needed to control it.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Excessive draft is gonna overfire any stove. Cat/non-cat or combination of above. The reason that Woodstock suggests a pipe damper if needed to control it.

That's very true, but not a specific problem of hybrids.

 

[BrotherBart]

That's very true, but not a specific problem of hybrids.

I was replying to "Tube Stove Harry". HotCoals.

 

[toddnic]

We are really enjoying our PH! It is an amazing woodstove and it definitely gives me the control for overnight slow burns as well as higher burn rate for a greater temperature. We normally keep it around 400 - 450 degrees and that keeps our home (2000 sq. ft ranch) in the lower 70's when it is in the 30's outside. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does when we get some real cold weather.

 

[aaron1]

Thanks so much for all of the information. I have been reading obsessively since posting.

Though the flue exit on the PH will go under my lintel, the top of the stove appears to go up to 28.5"(with short legs), and my lintel is right at 28 3/8". In addition, my hearth does not come out far enough to move the stove out from the fireplace a little bit. I would have to carve out part of my lintel I think, or chip out a large rectangle of bricks to drop the stove height some.

I have become fascinated with the BK stories. It seems like the BK's can be run at lower temps for longer times more easily according to what i've been reading. Unfortunately, I can't fit the BK Princess into my space either, as unless I go with the insert or demo my fireplace. I had never thought about an insert, but the BK Princess insert might work nicely. My only reservation is if it will put out enough heat to keep at least our living room at 85F in the cold part of winter, especially without having a loud fan running all of the time. The space is my living room, so I want it to be a calm environment! I really LOVE how it would probably provide great, even, low heat in the shoulder months.

I also am really afraid of the fan volume. I should see if I can find a BK Princess insert nearby that I can actually experience. I've heard it's not bad on low. Is it possible to just run the fan on low and still heat the insert up to a pretty hot surface temp? I am assuming that you can't run the insert very not without turning up the fan. Also, I don't really like the idea of relying on electricity with the insert, though i've only lost power once in the last 5 years.

I already measured and the insert would fit with my fireplace size and with how the flue comes down. How do you install an insert, using some kind of "flexy" liner from the insert to the flue connection so that you can push it all in and be able to remove it?

Is it worth demoing the lintel to get a stove instead of an insert, or is that a stupid idea? When I really think about it, the main reason to do the demo would be to avoid having to hear the insert fan, which sounds a little crazy to me, but I hope to have this installation for many years.

 

[aaron1]

Can the PH users help me out a bit on dimensions again!? It looks like the damper control is on the right back of the stove. How far does it stick out from the side of the stove? Or, could you tell me how wide the stove is from the furthest left part of the stove to the edge of the damper control on the right side of the stove when it is pointing out directly horizontally? If my fireplace is only 33.75" wide, and if I have to stick the furthest back part of the stove (the part above the flue pipe for a rear-exit installation) around 4.5" into the fireplace, will the damper lever be operable?

 

[weatherguy]

I don't think you'd have any problem getting your living room up to 85 with the Princess, I'm pushing all the heat I can out of my family room to other parts of the house and it still always 80..

 

[Boiler74]

I think the air control on the PH can be on either side of the stove because they offer the door on either side of the stove.

Quick measurements: (my stove is about 300 degrees right now, so these are quick!)

The body of the stove is about 27 inches wide around it's waist. The top and bottom decorative flares make it wider, but that won't interfere with your getting to the air control lever. So it looks like you have 6.75" to play with from side to side. So, worst case, you could mover the stove a little off center if needed.

Measuring from the front face of the stove, around the waist again, the air control lever in the closed positiion is 17 3/8" back. And it looks like the lever in the up position would be another 3" back. Please note that I am not measurig from the top and bottom flares, but from the body of the stove. The measurements given for the PH online are the full widths to the outside of the flares. An eyeball measurement from the very front of the lower stove flare to the air handle in the closed positioin is about 19"

Hope that helps. It's the best I can do with a hot stove.

 

[aaron1]

Thanks so much for the measurements!!

If I had to end up extending the hearth out 5" to fit the stove, could I just have someone lay down a couple layers of bricks onto the hardwood floor in front of the hearth (in the correct masonry manner!)? I'm pretty sure the rest of my hearth goes all the way down to the basement and is solid brick. Would a couple rows of bricks on top of my hardwood floor support the weight of the two front legs of a 700 lb stove?! I am assuming it would, but I've never had a 700 lb person in my house before! I could imagine 4 X 200 lb guys standing there next to each other without a problem, but not jumping up and down, not that the stove will jump

Reminds me, a friend of mine rented his large old house for a few years to some college students. They had a huge party one night and were jumping and dancing, and his old, dry floor joists cracked all over in his basement!! What a disaster!

 

[aaron1]

How low of a surface temp can you maintain on a PH for an extended burn? Is 400-450 pretty much the minimum? Just curious. I assume the BK can go down to 300 for long times maybe?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

How low of a surface temp can you maintain on a PH for an extended burn? Is 400-450 pretty much the minimum? Just curious. I assume the BK can go down to 300 for long times maybe?

I believe Woodstock has ran some tests on this. I'd suggest calling them and they can be very helpful on everything about the stove and install. They are very friendly people and are not pushy at all. 800-866-4344, extension 2.

 

[toddnic]

How low of a surface temp can you maintain on a PH for an extended burn? Is 400-450 pretty much the minimum? Just curious. I assume the BK can go down to 300 for long times maybe?

I've held mine at 300 before. It all depends upon the quantity, type of wood, and amount of air that you put into the stove. During the 'shoulder season' I used small splits that would bring the stove up to around 300 to 400 and the soapstone will hold the heat for a long time.

 

[aaron1]

In fact, I emailed WS about a PH install, and the guy tried to dissuade me from getting one, as he thought my hearth wouldn't work, and I couldn't clean it out due to lack of space, etc. Too bad, I was really starting to lean toward the PH. I'm going to have a mason guy a friend said was really good come by and look to see what I can do, but I think I'll wind up getting the Jotul Oslo after all of this agonizing after all!! I'm going to make one last effort to see if I can make a PH install work though. I really love that stove. I'm just afraid it's going to entail some serious masonry work on my fireplace.