I hate my Napoleon 1450... suggestions for replacement

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scooby074

Feeling the Heat
Jan 7, 2011
423
Nova Scotia
Basically like the title says... I have a 1450 and hate it.

While it should have ample size to heat my 1700sqft ranch style here in NS.. it fails miserably. The house is decently insulated, new windows and doors, climate here doesnt get that cold (-10-20*C max). Its not even cold here yet (currently +3.5*C) burning dry wood and i still cant get the living room above 15*C. with the stovepipe thermo at 350*... On top of all that i burned about 6 cord last year. I got a friend with a larger, split entry that has a Pacific Energy Spectrum that heats his whole house on 3.5 cord a year. Thats a more efficient stove if you ask me

Then there are the overall quality issues. Paint is rusting, broken firebrick and needed new baffles.

So what now? I based my purchase on reading reviews here on Hearth, But I realize i cheaped out and should have bought a better / bigger stove but im stuck. Do i try to sell it? Whats a fair value?

What would be a good "premium" stove? This time im going big.

Im thinking Pacific's summit or Osburn 2400 or maybe even the massive Hearthstone Equinox... Although im not 100% on hearthstone ... my EXPENSIVE hearthstone steamer cracked and although it was replaced under warranty, im a bit leery.

Top load would be nice, but about the only top load i know is the VC stoves... and im not sure if they would give me the heat i need.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
87,145
South Puget Sound, WA
Just make sure that this is the stove and not the wood, the house or perhaps, the installation. Paint rusting, broken firebrick and new baffles on a new stove sounds like a rough life and not necessarily the stove's fault.
 

castlegates

New Member
Sep 12, 2011
26
S. CENTRAL PA
I am forever a fan of DS machines! I got an energymax 110. 4 pieces run me 8-10 hours keeping it about 80 upstairs at freezing outside. We often open the windows just because.

THat's the most efficient machine I've seen. It can burn coal, too if you feel like it; 1 inch thick shaker grates are nice for repeated wood burns getting the ash down below. The tray takes a few gallons worth (just a guess). I empty that once a week. It reburns wood smoke (you can watch it; amazing site) and it's one of the rare birds that does BOTH coal really well AND wood really well. My only complaint is the viewing glass could be bigger and they could have made it all pretty looking (but the Amish have never been into fancy, just function). I've had many stoves and inserts and this blows them all away. I have 6 cords of wood and I should be burning a lot more than I thought I'd need at this slow burn rate! It's got knob in the back that automatically opens a bit more as it cools down, closes as it heats up how you adjust it so you've got a constant heat.

With this beast, I wouldn't go much larget than the max 110. It's an efficient beast and I love it!
 

NordicSplitter

Minister of Fire
May 22, 2011
541
Western,NY
Mt Jotul F600 is a beast. Loaded it up last night around 8:30pm with 4 splits and right now.(5:21am est)...Living room is at 78F, Upstairs is at 74F and far Family room is at 72F. This has been the norm for me so far. House size about 2200sq ft. All brick split level ranch. Not even using my best wood yet(Oak, Black Locust & Apple) just been using maple and ash so far. Remember..you can always build a smaller fire in a big stove but never a bigger fire in a small one....Oh ya..cost........Stove itself...$2300..Install with all the goodies...$2400.. Also got the blower put on for $279. If I wanted too I could start it up again before I head to work shortly, nice bed of coals left. Best of Luck.
 

kingquad

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2010
669
Pennsylvania
Please give an accurate description of your wood, setup, and how you run the stove. What are your stove top temps? Something doesn't add up. Also, the equinox is WAY to big for your house. Mansfield would be a good choice though.
 

Backwoods Savage

Minister of Fire
Feb 14, 2007
27,812
Michigan
For sure I would first look at the fuel. Please tell us more. What type of wood is it? When was it cut? When was it split? How was the wood stacked after being split? On the stove, that 350 flue temperature is not too bad but only tells part of the story. My bet is that it is the fuel and replacing that is much less costly than a new stove.
 

BrowningBAR

Minister of Fire
Jul 22, 2008
7,607
San Tan Valley, AZ
scooby074 said:
Basically like the title says... I have a 1450 and hate it.

While it should have ample size to heat my 1700sqft ranch style here in NS.. it fails miserably. The house is decently insulated, new windows and doors, climate here doesnt get that cold (-10-20*C max). Its not even cold here yet (currently +3.5*C) burning dry wood and i still cant get the living room above 15*C. with the stovepipe thermo at 350*... On top of all that i burned about 6 cord last year. I got a friend with a larger, split entry that has a Pacific Energy Spectrum that heats his whole house on 3.5 cord a year. Thats a more efficient stove if you ask me

Then there are the overall quality issues. Paint is rusting, broken firebrick and needed new baffles.

So what now? I based my purchase on reading reviews here on Hearth, But I realize i cheaped out and should have bought a better / bigger stove but im stuck. Do i try to sell it? Whats a fair value?

What would be a good "premium" stove? This time im going big.

Im thinking Pacific's summit or Osburn 2400 or maybe even the massive Hearthstone Equinox... Although im not 100% on hearthstone ... my EXPENSIVE hearthstone steamer cracked and although it was replaced under warranty, im a bit leery.

Top load would be nice, but about the only top load i know is the VC stoves... and im not sure if they would give me the heat i need.

Seems like you aren't running that stove correctly. I agree with the others. The fuel seems to be in question

If you were burning that stove hard you would have a higher stove pipe temp unless this is a double wall pipe. 6 cords of wood in a winter seems like a lot considering I could only burn 5.5 cords out of the inefficient Vigilant when it was the only stove. I don't think I could burn 6 cords in a winter in the Heritage (same size stove) if I tried.

What are the stove top temps you are seeing? It can't be much if the room it is in only gets to 59°... or you are missing a roof on your house.
 

scooby074

Feeling the Heat
Jan 7, 2011
423
Nova Scotia
Hi guys, Sorry for the delay.

Ill try and answer a few questions about the current setup.

This years wood i mixed hardwood, probably 80% hard maple. 10% oak. 10% birch and other mixed. It was cut 1.5-2 years ago. Then cut and split 4-6 months ago. Its split in 2-4" pieces. Its quite dry, starts well and most pieces have no sizzle. Its staclked in individual rows, on rows of pallets, 2 rows of wood / pallet. Covered with tarps unless they blow off :D

Quality of the stove :
I wouldnt say it had a hard life. Its only about 2 years old. The baffles were replaced 3/4 through the first year. The originals were ~1/2" thick. The redesigned new ones are probably 3/4-1" thick and have no issues. The paint problems came after i had a leaky selkirk (famous seam leakage issue). It can be fixed with sandpaper and new paint, but i wonder about the overall quality if a bit of water can cause this issue. Next stove will likely be enamel.


DS stoves:
i had a look and i cant find any reps locally. sounds like an interesting product. I did find some discussion that it was not approved. If thats the case its a no-go as far as my insurance.

Jotul f600
Nice Stove!!! Love the top load. Its on the list.. IIRC i looked at jotul before i bought mine and the price was no where near that... I seem to remember it being over $3k. Dealer is over 2 hr away but im going to go in next time im by. If its $2400.. it could very well be mine.

Setup:
I havent checked stove top temps lately. My thermo is packed away somewhere. Ill have to find it. Wood is described above. Flue is 6" selkirk. Firing consists of getting the stove up to about 450*+ then i turn the damper down to try and keep the stove in the clean burn range. Ill re-load as required. Usually i dont open the damper up when re-loading. Once lit, the stove is never really shut off, there are always coals present, unless im going to clean it.

Temps:
I have a roof last time i checked :D. Those low 15* temps are worse case scenarios when the outside temp is colder.
 

Nonprophet

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2009
516
Oregon
scooby074 said:
Hi guys, Sorry for the delay.

Ill try and answer a few questions about the current setup.

This years wood i mixed hardwood, probably 80% hard maple. 10% oak. 10% birch and other mixed. It was cut 1.5-2 years ago. Then cut and split 4-6 months ago. Its split in 2-4" pieces. Its quite dry, starts well and most pieces have no sizzle. Its staclked in individual rows, on rows of pallets, 2 rows of wood / pallet. Covered with tarps unless they blow off :D
I'd say that's the biggest part of your problem right there--your wood is likely not dry enough. Any wood, especially hardwood, needs to cut, split and stacked for at least a full year to really be dry enough for these newer EPA stoves. 2 years C,S, and S is even better. Many of us are burning wood that has been seasoned 3 years or more. The short length of time that the wood has been split and stacked, coupled with the fact that some pieces "sizzle" and that your getting poor performance from you stove all point to your wood not being dry enough.

One easy way to verify this is to buy a moisture meter. You can get them at Harbor Freight and other places for $12 or so. To be ready to burn well, your wood should be below 20% moisture, my guess is that yours is probably in the 25-28% range and that's going to cause you problems.

NP
 

scooby074

Feeling the Heat
Jan 7, 2011
423
Nova Scotia
Nonprophet said:
scooby074 said:
Hi guys, Sorry for the delay.

Ill try and answer a few questions about the current setup.

This years wood i mixed hardwood, probably 80% hard maple. 10% oak. 10% birch and other mixed. It was cut 1.5-2 years ago. Then cut and split 4-6 months ago. Its split in 2-4" pieces. Its quite dry, starts well and most pieces have no sizzle. Its staclked in individual rows, on rows of pallets, 2 rows of wood / pallet. Covered with tarps unless they blow off :D
I'd say that's the biggest part of your problem right there--your wood is likely not dry enough. Any wood, especially hardwood, needs to cut, split and stacked for at least a full year to really be dry enough for these newer EPA stoves. 2 years C,S, and S is even better. Many of us are burning wood that has been seasoned 3 years or more. The short length of time that the wood has been split and stacked, coupled with the fact that some pieces "sizzle" and that your getting poor performance from you stove all point to your wood not being dry enough.

One easy way to verify this is to buy a moisture meter. You can get them at Harbor Freight and other places for $12 or so. To be ready to burn well, your wood should be below 20% moisture, my guess is that yours is probably in the 25-28% range and that's going to cause you problems.

NP
I agree that moisture COULD be an issue. And i do have some wet wood in there occasionally no doubt. No HF's here so a moisture metre will have to wait. Cheapest metre i can find is $60. I can say that most wood is "light" by weight.. which is an unscientific method i know.
 

BrowningBAR

Minister of Fire
Jul 22, 2008
7,607
San Tan Valley, AZ
Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.
 

Nonprophet

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2009
516
Oregon
scooby074 said:
I agree that moisture COULD be an issue. And i do have some wet wood in there occasionally no doubt. No HF's here so a moisture metre will have to wait. Cheapest metre i can find is $60. I can say that most wood is "light" by weight.. which is an unscientific method i know.
You can order from HF online, and also check Amazon and Ebay. You can get a pretty darned nice MM for $25 shipped, and trust me, it will pay for itself the first few times you use it. Like others have said, getting a new stove almost certainly isn't going to solve the problem. Would you rather spend $25 on a MM, or, a couple thousand on a new stove--and then still have the same problem?

Your choice.....but we've all been there before with wood that just isn't dry enough.....

NP
 

scooby074

Feeling the Heat
Jan 7, 2011
423
Nova Scotia
BrowningBAR said:
Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.
dug out the thermo. Stove was relit at when i got home. Stove has been running for about 1.5 hours.

Flue temps 325*

Stove top temp 530*

Stove Damper at approx 1/4

Stove blower at 80%
 

BrowningBAR

Minister of Fire
Jul 22, 2008
7,607
San Tan Valley, AZ
scooby074 said:
BrowningBAR said:
Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.
dug out the thermo. Stove was relit at when i got home. Stove has been running for about 1.5 hours.

Flue temps 325*

Stove top temp 530*

Stove Damper at approx 1/4

Stove blower at 80%

How drafty is your home? A 2.25 cu ft stove should be able to get that living room above 59 degrees.
 

Bub381

Minister of Fire
Feb 4, 2011
872
Mid-coast Maine
if that stove tops at 530 and you're still cold,you're losing heat somewhere.1/4 closed though and this Rangeley would prob be around 700 or better.Especially with soft wood,i couldn't run it at the temps that would cause.WOW!
 

BrotherBart

Modestorator
Staff member
Noticed you mention top loading a F600. Won't happen. It isn't a top loader. A long time ago it was. Not anymore.
 

scooby074

Feeling the Heat
Jan 7, 2011
423
Nova Scotia
BrotherBart said:
Noticed you mention top loading a F600. Won't happen. It isn't a top loader. A long time ago it was. Not anymore.
oh? too bad then. i checked jotuls website and they still show it in the brochure. i still like the stove. just not quite as much without it
 

scooby074

Feeling the Heat
Jan 7, 2011
423
Nova Scotia
cold here today so i built a bigger fire to get temps.

stove pipe 350-400

stovetop 610

damper 1/2

room temp 20-21*c measured on an inside wall with infrared thermo
 

Nonprophet

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2009
516
Oregon
If you're looking for a great stove with similar capacity to the F600 and top-loading, I HIGHLY recommend a Quadrafire Isle Royale! I've been burning 20+ plus years and have owned 12-15 different stoves and the IR is the best stove we've ever owned....

NP

scooby074 said:
BrotherBart said:
Noticed you mention top loading a F600. Won't happen. It isn't a top loader. A long time ago it was. Not anymore.
oh? too bad then. i checked jotuls website and they still show it in the brochure. i still like the stove. just not quite as much without it
 

BrowningBAR

Minister of Fire
Jul 22, 2008
7,607
San Tan Valley, AZ
scooby074 said:
cold here today so i built a bigger fire to get temps.

stove pipe 350-400

stovetop 610

damper 1/2

room temp 20-21*c measured on an inside wall with infrared thermo

I'm thinking your home might be a little more drafty than you realize. Either way, if you want a warmer house, you will need a bigger stove. Due to the fact that a 2.25 cu ft firebox is heating your home so poorly, and you live in a very cold climate, I would suggest looking at the Blaze King King. Last thing you want to do is upgrade and still not meet your needs.
 

NordicSplitter

Minister of Fire
May 22, 2011
541
Western,NY
My buddy at work has an older Jotul F600 with a top loader, however they don't make them any longer. Hope I didn't confuse you with the cost.. The Stove was $2300... The hearth and install were $2400 and the blower was $279...Total $4979... Figure I will have it for about 20 yrs. Only $250 a year for a great stove.
 

DanCorcoran

Minister of Fire
Jan 5, 2010
2,205
Richmond, VA
First time I've heard of measuring the temperature of a room by using an IR thermometer on an inside wall. I think air temperature is what is normally measured, not the temperature of the structure itself.
 

stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
BrowningBAR said:
scooby074 said:
BrowningBAR said:
Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.
dug out the thermo. Stove was relit at when i got home. Stove has been running for about 1.5 hours.

Flue temps 325*

Stove top temp 530*

Stove Damper at approx 1/4

Stove blower at 80%

How drafty is your home? A 2.25 cu ft stove should be able to get that living room above 59 degrees.
im with BAR,

the stove running in the 5 to 6 hundred F range cruising sounds reasonable to me thouh i dont know that stove or what its supposed to cruise at are these temps holding for any amount of time? or is that just the "peak temp"?

while 1700 SQFT can be heated by a stove of that size not EVERY 1700 SQ FT space will be. what kind of heat loss are we looking at? how are we set for insulation? windows? etc.

again i cant speak to the broken bricks /baffles as its not my stove and im not sure what caused this. the painted surface thing though wasnt the stove's fault, it got wet and the paint isnt "weatherproof'

back to the sq ft rating, im not sure what this model's sq ft coverage rating is but it shold be noted that stove ratings geterally are set by "best case" scenario so if it said 1700 sq ft , actually it should read "up to" 1700 sq ft. things like insulation, floor plan and the like come into consideration .

without knowing the floor plan or the degree of insulation and just reading posts it does sound like you need more stove , but the stove may not be "faulty" just doesnt have the "horsepower" to cover your particular space
 

KB007

Minister of Fire
Oct 21, 2009
553
Ottawa, Canada
I have a 1450 in the basement of our 1800sqft bungalow (that's 1800 upstairs and 1800 downstairs).

We used the 1450 for a full year and a half and it heated our house fairly well.

Couple of observations:

1) I strongly doubt your wood is "dry". Being split for 4-6 months just isn't going to cut it yes, pun intended ;) I ran this stove for about 2 months with poorly seasoned wood the spring we bought it and it really didn't perform very well. It definitely likes good dry wood in there.

2) You say you run the blower at 80% - that may be a bit too fast, I found running the blower more like 40% seemed to run the stove nicely. It may be cooling things a bit too much.

3) Temps could probably be a bit higher. I used a "calibrated" stove top thermo and IR gun and usually used to run the 1450 up to at least 650 at the front corner before starting to cut the air down to cruise.

4) Your last post mentioned making a "larger fire" - wondering - are you running the stove with a decent north south load each time? For that stove we would always run N/S, fill it to the gills and let it get to 650 - usually between 30-4- minutes, then turn down to 1/2 for about 15 minutes, then close it almost all the way to get beatifull secondaries. Are you getting the secondaries firing? It should look like the bowels of hell with them going and once you close it right down it will actually get a little hotter.

5) how are you circulating the air? Hopefully you're running a fan blowing cold airr into the room with the stove?

It's probably a combination of a bit of all of these plus maybe something like drafts or poor insulation (how much do you have in the walls / attic?)
 

BKInsert

Member
Oct 23, 2011
151
Long Island NY
DanCorcoran said:
First time I've heard of measuring the temperature of a room by using an IR thermometer on an inside wall. I think air temperature is what is normally measured, not the temperature of the structure itself.
+1, you can not expect the wall temperature to reach air temperature that fast. You need to measure the air temperature on a far wall vs the actual wall temperature. Can you do that and get back to us? What is the temperature reading on the closest controller heater?

Also, I think that like someone else said running the blower at 80% is way too fast for idle heat, at idle you should run it at approximately the same setting as your air intake, for example air 1/2 open then blower 1/2 speed...
 
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