I have no idea which heat source is right for my situation..

[tlhfirelion]

Wood stove, add on furnace, pellet stove, insert or stove style, etc, etc. Ive thought I had a decent handle on which way I wanted to go with regard to heating my home but I keep running into major (expensive) obstacles that still leave me with a major hole in my end goal. Rather than post up another thread about a specific option, I'm hoping the collective hive here can help me decide what might be my best option.

Home - 25 years old, 1500 sq ft. 1000 sq ft upstairs, ranch style, 500 sq ft partial walk out basement. I'm on a hill in Very Northern Arkansas. Ive had a wood stove from Home Depot in my living room for quite a few years now and it is getting old and needing to be replaced. The stove is in my living room mostly in the center of the upstairs so the ceiling fan in the living room helps to broadcast the heat. It is piped thru to a wall thimble, over to a T and up 15'. All high temp SS pipe.

Now, what has me looking at all and any options is that my office (and my wifes) is in my basement and it is always cold. We are all electric and the space heaters and radiator style heaters are not only impacting our electric bill but they just don't work well. I've added insulation but we both are tired of frozen fingers when we try to write or type. lol So I was looking at an add on furnace but it developed into a very expensive venture. I considered moving my stove into my basement but all I've read tells me that is a mixed bag of results. I was even reading about a wetback system to run hot water into a radiator in my basement off my current stoves location (down 3' into the crawlspace, over 18' and down to radiator) but I just don't see that as working well. I thought about taping into my marathon water heater for a basement radiator but I have no idea how that would impact my electric bill.....would it be better or worse than the space heaters?

I'm really confused as to the best route to take so if anyone has any suggestions on an option I've not considered or an option I've written off that may work and I didn't realize, etc, please let me know. I'm all ears at this point. All I know is I need to do something before next Winter. Thank you in advance for the help.

 

[Jags]

Hmmm....wood stoves are considered space heaters. Generally - you put them in the space you want heated. Basements bring along their own issues. You state "Insulation", but I am not sure what that means, or to what level. First knee jerk reaction would be to place a stove where you want the heat, but I suspect you are looking for more of a full solution. Please include more info on insulation values, piping options for a basement install, etc. Mentioning cost in more than one instance suggests that something like a gasser (boiler) with storage is out of the question.

 

[tlhfirelion]

Hmmm....wood stoves are considered space heaters. Generally - you put them in the space you want heated. Basements bring along their own issues. You state "Insulation", but I am not sure what that means, or to what level. First knee jerk reaction would be to place a stove where you want the heat, but I suspect you are looking for more of a full solution. Please include more info on insulation values, piping options for a basement install, etc. Mentioning cost in more than one instance suggests that something like a gasser (boiler) with storage is out of the question.

Hey Jags, thank you for the quick reply. The real hiccup here is the basement and the fact it is used as a workspace. Maybe I should just move. lol Regarding the insulation, I can't give an exact R-Value but I'll describe the situation. It is a block wall basement, half under ground, half not. (walk out into the side of a hill if that paints a better picture?) Outside has foam board on the block wall then metal siding. Inside has 2X4 wall with R13 fiberglass built up with drywall. The ceiling above is open floor joists for the two small bedrooms above.

I've considered placing a stove in the basement but the headache that comes along with drilling a hole in the block wall and now having two rather expensive chimney pipes on the backside of my house is...unappealing.

When you ask about piping options for a basement install, what exactly are you wanting? Are you referring to ductwork or plumbing or both?

I had considered the quadrature with the zone heat kit as an option but I'm aware that this cursed basement throws a kink into trying to move heat down. I suspect I could generate some success considering the shorter run and the fact it's not being pushed straight down 15', more down and over, but the jury in my mind is still out on that.

Thanks again for the feedback, I appreciate the time to help me process all my options.

 

[Jags]

Sorry for the confusion - the piping question was in reference to adding a woodstove (exhaust). How easy can it happen? Length of pipe run? Etc.
The most straight forward way appears to be adding a stove where you want the heat. The only other option from a single heat source is to obviously move the heat. Moving it via water/baseboards is gonna get pricey. The other option is moving the heated air (from upstairs) and that requires a convection loop (assuming you have the firepower to heat the total area needed). Some have had success with doing this from above, some - not so much. A floor plan might help.

 

[velvetfoot]

You could frame in the two metal chimneys to create a chase to make it look better.

 

[tlhfirelion]

Sorry for the confusion - the piping question was in reference to adding a woodstove (exhaust). How easy can it happen? Length of pipe run? Etc.
The most straight forward way appears to be adding a stove where you want the heat. The only other option from a single heat source is to obviously move the heat. Moving it via water/baseboards is gonna get pricey. The other option is moving the heated air (from upstairs) and that requires a convection loop (assuming you have the firepower to heat the total area needed). Some have had success with doing this from above, some - not so much. A floor plan might help.

I'll try and draw up a rough layout of the house and scan the pics up later on. I agree that may help you help me if you can get a better idea of the about. Thanks!

 

[tlhfirelion]

You could frame in the two metal chimneys to create a chase to make it look better.

If they were close that is an excellent idea and one I'd not thought of. As it stands now these would be at almost opposite ends of the longest part of the house so I'm not sure that would work. Thank you for the reply, it helps to think of all options!

 

[tlhfirelion]

OK, so remember you asked for these drawings. lol My art skills are so lacking this may make this conversation worse.

1) Image #1, the view from above of the upstairs layout. The current stove is located on the south wall of the home towards the middle of the living room and by using our ceiling fan I can distribute heat to most of the upstairs. Thats worked ok for quite a few years. I appreciate the bedrooms being a little cooler at night but not freezing. The layout here is approx. 1000 sq ft.

2) Image #2 , This is a view from the north in the yard looking at the house. The dashed line represents the line of earth as our basement is built into the hill.

3) Image #3, This is the view from above if the #'s 2 and 3 bedrooms were removed from the house so you can see just the basement layout. They are smaller rooms, both equal about 500 sq ft.

I'll include a pic of the crawl space as well so you can see what I'm dealing with. I don't know if it's a fools errand to try and move warm air from the stove, down to the crawlspace and over to the left into the mechanical room on the south side of the house. Pipe down from the stove a few feet, over 20 or so feet to the mechanical room and dump heat in there. Like a Quadrature 7100 with a zone kit?

Anyways, I'll add the pics next. If I need to clear more up or elaborate let me know. Thank you again for the assistance.

 

[tlhfirelion]

To provide a point of reference, the view of the crawlspace is from the corner of the mechanical room. If you made a diagonal line from the door in-between the two pillars supporting the home to the wall to the left, the stove is there above.

 

[begreen]

That ductwork would really benefit with sealing and insulation. Lots of heat loss there. Given the small area, an electric space heater in the office makes sense if the walls are well insulated. Is the heater left on overnight to keep the room heated to at least 65F so that recovery is not too great in the daytime?

 

[Jags]

Oh boy - the lack of basement under the living area where the stove is located complicates a thermal loop. I am gonna back off a bit and give some other folks a chance to review this to see if they come up with an idea...

 

[xman23]

So if I understand, there a few issues. More heat needed in the basement level / office. Wood stove's getting old and should be replaced. And the house has only electric heat. Heating basements and main levels with one stove is difficult. You could put in a new zoned heating system with your choice of fuel. Zoned allows you to heat only the areas your using. A easy stove for the basement is a pellet stove. The chimney is a PVC pipe out the basement wall. But any solution has cost, so that may limit your choices.

 

[velvetfoot]

A easy stove for the basement is a pellet stove. The chimney is a PVC pipe out the basement wall.

?

 

[mark cline]

My thoughts would be for a pellet stove only to heat the office. Trying to heat the office and the rest of the house is a stretch with one stove. Any idea has a price , but ease of install , I would think is a pellet stove . You can find a used pellet stove in the spring and the piping is resonably priced. Maybe even a left over stove at a clearance price .

 

[velvetfoot]

Are oil stoves coming back into vogue?

 

[tlhfirelion]

Thanks for everyones help. It looks like, aside from an infrared heater on the floor, whatever I do will be an expensive venture. I kind of knew that piping water/hot air/etc from upstairs was DOA but it never hurts to get others opinions on the matter. I had hoped to make that work somehow to keep things going when we lose power each winter but it won't freeze down there, just gets unpleased to work in. I even considered solar hot air but I've not looked into it enough to see if that would work at least during the day time anyways.

The reviews of inferred heaters all seem to be quite positive from what I can find so maybe that would be the answer. Just hate to see hear that electric meter spinning. lol A pellet stove may be an option but then I would have wood heat upstairs and pellet wood down and I'd need to store both. If I can score a deal on a used pellet stove on craigslist then maybe that could work, the exhaust for that sure is easy compared to wood.

A big thank you to everyone for their help and feedback. This is a great forum.

 

[Dix]

If the electric goes out with out a generator he's SOOL, with a pellet stove. Just saying.

 

[jetsam]

The problem is in the basement, where there's multiple space heaters and it's too cold to work comfortably.

The first thing I think of here is insulation. It sounds like you have a lot of heat that's going straight to earth.

I'd get the floor of the office up off the slab and insulated and insulate every bit of masonry wall. Plug all the holes, don't worry about the ceiling since "lost" heat there is heating the upstairs bedrooms.

Decide what kind of heat you want before you do the floor and walls- it's a lot easier to put in hydronics, ducts, wiring, and flues before all that is done than it is to try to retrofit it.

My personal guess is that a 1500w radiator type electric space heater should be more than enough to keep one basement room warm if the walls are well insulsted and the flooring isn't right on the slab.

I have a basement computer room, and I keep it reasonably comfy with an electric radiator style heater set to low (600w). It even has VCT stuck directly to the slab, so a lot of heat is lost to the floor.

 

[begreen]

The nice thing with electric or wood vs pellet is that it's quiet. That's good for office work. They make oil filled radiators with 24 hr timers on them. Perhaps you could have it preheat the office so that it's had a few hours to warm up first?

 

[jetsam]

A key concept here is that masonry in contact with the ground is an infinite heat sink (for home heating purposes, anyway). It is in contact with an extremely large thermal mass. You can figure that at 4' down, the earth is 50-55°F year round. Your concrete wall will conduct heat out if it's warmer inside (cold in the winter!)- and conducts heat in if it's colder inside (won't get much colder than 50 unless colder air is coming into the space).

This is the exact observation that geothermal heating and cooling exploits.

 

[begreen]

Not sure but it looks like the concrete walls are above grade.

 

[tlhfirelion]

The basement is half built into a hill so the crawlspace side of the basement is all under earth. As you move towards the east, the hill slopes down almost at an exact diagonal angle. I wish that the electric radiant heat had been out down before the tile. The tile is right on the slab so year, heat sink city. I've already gone around this house with a crap ton of the cans of spray foam and caulking, upgraded doors and windows over the past couple years so thats about as good as it's gonna get.

In regards to power outages at a pellet stove, I do have a generator that can run it with ease.

 

[tlhfirelion]

The nice thing with electric or wood vs pellet is that it's quiet. That's good for office work. They make oil filled radiators with 24 hr timers on them. Perhaps you could have it preheat the office so that it's had a few hours to warm up first?

Have you used the infrared type of heater? I do not know which would be more effective, that or an oil filled radiator type.

 

[begreen]

Both work. An infrared heater is a bit more like a wood stove in that you may feel the heat several feet away depending on the design. They tend to be more expensive with no added value other than the cabinet. Eden Pure is probably the worst example. Many of these units have fans which assist them convectively. Listen if possible before purchasing to avoid a noisy unit The oil filled radiator is a bit safer and has the timer option, but is convective (without a fan) in design. They are about half the price (or less) than the fancy infrared heaters and simpler, meaning less to go wrong. Whichever you choose, don't buy into the energy saving claims. Electric heaters are all 100% efficient and draw the same amount of power per given wattage rating, so pay closer attention to reliability. Avoid 12 hr timers, get one with a 24 hr timer if you want to have the office preheated.

 

[Rearscreen]

Hydronic heat in basement? Either floor or walls....