Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Waiting a few years will surely give you more choices as the manufacturers all offer new models to meet the new regs. If the kuuma was even close to being reasonably priced, you would see a lot more of them.
In the market for a new woodfurnace
- Thread starter laynes69
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brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
You don't think they are reasonably priced? I agree that they are pricey...but when you consider that they are they best...lowest emissions, best efficiency, made right here...by Americans, using a very high % content of American materials...excellent customer service and support...sounds reasonable to me...maybe not affordable for everybody...but reasonable non the less.
I mean heck, look at the PSG Max Caddy (and some others)...getting very close to the same money
I mean heck, look at the PSG Max Caddy (and some others)...getting very close to the same money
Well, I think PSG is a very good unit as you have seen/lived with. But why is the HE not covered under warranty? Kumma and yukon have a 25 year warranty. I truly hope you can successfully repair your caddy, also hope that the bad hand life dealt you works out for the better. I am just saying you had not the best durability with one of the 2 best units, why not try the other? Ford verse chevy thing. ya know.
The unit I own is a usstove, which is covered under a 3 year warranty. I did have an issue a few years into ownership, but SBI which was the manufacturer ( manufacturer of the Caddy). The design was dropped quite a few years ago. What I've found is many manufacturers build a product with a longer warranty and the same product with a shorter warranty. It's nice to have a longer warranty, however they aren't always needed, and some have limitations regardless of what's presented. If I find a unit that can produce what's necessary and save thousands, I'm going to choose that product. Honestly, I'll repair my furnace for less than a hundred dollars. I paid 1,200, so I can't complain. As I've said a hundred times, I do not believe the Kuuma would be enough for our home.
I will say I have not seen a max caddy in person, but I have seen pics and specs. To me I can't imagine it is that much more powerful. Being in the BTU business, 42 windows correlates to a huge damn house. I am totally surprised your max caddy did such a good job, I am thinking the size of your house with those windows is in the range of 250,000 Btu's. The Kumma definitely can't do that. Also please remember I am not in the club of if I own it, it is the best . I am a bit ocd and researched the hell out of wood furnaces. With my hvac knowledge I picked what I thought was the best and was surprised at how well it worked. One of those rare pleasantly surprised situations. I do not recommend many things, but this I do. Just not for you as you need more than what it can do. Still can't wrap my head around how the max caddy could fulfill your needs. $100 repair is all you need? Great, glad to hear it. No need to be in the market for a new unit either.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Correct! I have 2500 square feet with 10' ceilings ( 2 stories) and a 1200 square foot basement. It's a 3.5 cu ft firebox, which is the Caddy. The Max Caddy, or something in the 4.5 to 5 cu.ft range would give me what's necessary when we drop to the single digits and below zero. We do not use fuel in the coldest of weather, however I would like it warmer than 68-70 during those times. At zero degrees, the heat loss calculation was around 75 to 80 thousand btus an hour. We still have a few areas that can be buttoned up, but until then it is what it is.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
6000$. They do have the best specs. I don't see where the extra money is going. Why should this device cost over triple the rest of the other devices? A 50% upcharge, so 3000$, for the better performance is more than enough "extra".
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Mmm, no, you will be spending closer to 4 or 5k for a Max Caddy in many/most cases...Yukons were 5k for the basic Husky...more for the Polar...and I'm not even talking with shipping cost as you obviously are.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Yes, you're right. There are other premium furnaces that are priced within 1500$ of the Kuuma. Of course, that 1500$ buys you an entire furnace from some companies! I was comparing to the drolet type line which apparently costs 1/3 as much to make. I chose to pay a premium for my woodstove to get higher performance and I would expect to pay a premium for "top of the line" here too. Yukons are not even comparable and their price point just goes to show you how even a turd can have a ridiculous price tag. Shipping cost is negligible for all. I was using the 6k$ from upthread for the kuuma.
The price for a max caddy is irrelevant because it is not the same size as the kuuma. How about the caddy? It's hard to find a price for these furnaces, especially when sales of them in my state is prohibited due to the high levels of pollution they spew. I hear actual numbers are much lower than what you posted.
I would love to have a Kuuma in the shop. Really. It would be perfect for me. Sadly, the price is extremely high.
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In looking at different options, I've contacted dealers of the Napoleon HMF series, PSG dealers and others. When I get a quote from a dealer for the Napoleon which is over 5,000 dollars and they can take 25% off the price....hmmm. I looked at the Golden Eagle 7700 and in talking to various dealers, they felt the value far exceeded the PSG in terms of both money and quality. I'd be looking at a Max Caddy which would cost around 3500 without a blower, or the Golden Eagle which new comes in at 2500. I understand there is a longer warranty, but I may not need it. I used to build pumps, and we would change the color of them, add a warranty and sell them for double or more for the exact same product.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
You work for G/R? I was out there to their university for a class in 2015 or '16...top notch...and got a tour of the new plant, nice!
Turd...I wouldn't call 'em turds...they were ahead of their time at one point...just haven't been updated to meet any new regs for a long time...they are a very well built furnace and at the time I was convinced that the Yukon was my only whole house wood furnace choice due to only having one chimney available for the fuel oil burner and the wood burner...yooks have both into one chimney legally. I have since then figured out a way around this, that works for me and my set up.
I am still looking forward to see what their new stuff looks like when they release it...the latest update from them said they are now just going to bypass the 2017 emission regs and certify to the 2020 regs...makes sense to me. Why go through all that headache/expense twice in 3 years? In the meantime they are only selling new units outside of the US.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
I'm really looking forward to see what comes available from all of the companies when they are forced to meet the new regs. Seems the bulk of wood furnaces were left in the dark ages of technology due to being exempt from the EPA regulations. The OP, @laynes69, might be dodging a bullet my eeking out a few more years so that more options come available.
Like woodstoves, very few wood furnaces are true turds. I exaggerate for your benefit. It's pretty clear that you own one. I remember crappiekieth who said he worked for Yukon really pushing their stuff.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Now that dude believed in his product!
I do own one...that's my avatar pic. I'm not currently using it though...other than the rare backup heat situation, then the oil burner gets a little use...very little.
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lampmfg
Burning Hunk
We are in the process of evaluating our true cost to manufacture our 100 model. However, when you factor in manufacturing in a small town, paying reasonable wages to employees, EPA testing, high-quality materials, and computerized burn controls I think it's going to be very close to what we currently charge. Obviously, if we have a new factory and automate more we can produce faster but will have to factor in those costs of all new equipment as well.
I'm very confident there will not be any cheap EPA approved furnaces on the market in 2020. If you understand the new regulations to get all 4 burns underneath .15 grams and not just getting that average is very difficult. We really sweated out making the final burn. You can see from our competitor's test results there will need to be a complete product redesign to achieve this and that is going to be very costly and time-consuming. We took this approach from the beginning even though a product like the Tundra was able to come along and sell a ton of units at a price point most were looking to pay. A lot of the R&D was done by the public and you can see with a new version of it rolling out multiple times.
We definitely don't price gouge and have charged what was necessary to keep the lights on at our factory with our current manufacturing timeline. You definitely don't see my dad driving a Mercedez and since I do the books I can tell you not many or any would do his job for the wages he has made over the years. Hopefully, we are able to make and sell a ton of these because he definitely deserves it! He's had this dream for many years and I admire his will and determination it has taken to get here.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
I believe that all companies providing a value to their customers deserve to make a fair profit. I also don't mean to badger you guys but you must understand that your furnaces cost 3-4 times as much as the tundra that also will claim to "factor in manufacturing in a small town, paying reasonable wages to employees, EPA testing, high-quality materials, and computerized burn controls". What you have is a much lower emissions product that tests out a few % more efficient as well. Once in production mode, stamping these things out, the 100 model and the tundra aren't that different to make. So we must assume that you are trying to recoup sunk costs for R&D over your admittedly small number of produced units. Fair enough. You need to break even on that investment plus make a profit and right now you have the market cornered for the 2020 compliant furnace.
You don't have to explain anything to me. I understand that it's a take it or leave it situation. My interest, and I am not alone, is that you make a very desirable product that would be in my shop if it weren't for the very high price. There is a huge spread between cheap and a Kuuma.
Thank you for listening and responding Garrett. It reflects very well on your company that you are here.
Hold on!! There is NO comparison with the tundra and the Kumma! The VP100 is built much better, has a greater warranty, higher efficiency, more BTU's and was not designed to KILL people like the original tundra. Tundra used the public as R&D has potentially/ actually killed people and have changed there design at least 4 times in 3 years to make them safer, then more durable. In year 1, I bet the huge company of SBI had more replacement units then Kuuma did in 25 years. Comparing a Kuuma to a tundra is just retarded.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Thanks, sometimes I need a politically correct moderator. I thought i done good by not using the 1st word that came to mind.Fixed that for ya...
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Like it or not, that's what the buying public will do. Lucky for Kuuma that comparison should justify the higher price, right?
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Unfortunately not. The buying public will look at the sales pitch and brochure and say well its the same. But we in the know, know better. The tundra is an efficient low economy unit. Better than most tractor supply units in the same price range. But not even close to the quality or efficiency of a Kumma. These are built to last, they do not cheap out or risk anything. I questioned the price at 1st also, I could buy 2 oil or gas furnaces for the price of the Kumma. Now I understand what I bought. I do not endorse many things but the proof is in the pudding. I was fearful of only wood heat for a year, it worked out so well its been 6 years with only thr Kumma for heat. So much for the fears.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Have you actually compared the efficiency numbers published by the EPA and by Kuuma for all of the approved furnaces? The kuuma is only 4-5% more efficient than the rest. Still several percent less efficient than my woodstove. Where the kuuma shines is in the low emissions and build quality.
I relatively agree with you. I totally agree with the low emissions and build quality. The only 4 - 5 % more efficient has some murky water in that statement. 1) low emissions coincides with efficiency on wood heat. 2) heat transfer, 2 identically efficient units the same size and 1 can produce more heat than the other. 3) 5% is huge! Take an 85% efficient gas furnace, Add 5% efficiency and you now have a condensing furnace using PVC for a flue pipe. Compare the prices between the 2 of them.
Lastly add the computer that makes it load and go. No loading and waiting for it to get to temp (20 minutes?) then walk away. Then add the end of the burn, even with the T-stat not calling the damper will open and burn the coals down. No other furnace operates like this, No wood stove does either. I realize its hard to appreciate it without living through both. I sleep for 8 hrs a night and am gone for work for 11 hours a day. The EPA wood stove was a nightmare, the Kuuma is slightly more work than my oil boiler was.
My brother has a $4,000.00 new Hearthstone wood stove. He cannot heat as much space, cannot control the temps in the house, he can't zone all the rooms, can't burn near as long, can't load and go, has to deal with coaling, also has to do ashes every day, and does not produce domestic hot water. I can also attest that his chimney is MUCH dirtier than mine. ( its not the wood because that mooch burns mine, Which is very dry) So even comparing the Kuuma's price or emissions to a wood stove is intellectually disabled.
I guess we should agree to disagree, Please note that I am debating with you and its not personal or meant as disrespectful, even if it sounds it.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
lampmfg
Burning Hunk
Also, take into consideration that efficiency wasn't the goal of this test at all. We had to make some operational changes to accommodate getting all four burns under the .15, which was our only goal going into this test. Unlike the others who were attempting to certify just for phase 1. I'm very confident that we would've been at 83+ like when we tested in 2010 if we wouldn't have been worried about meeting the burn thresholds for certain categories.
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